Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: THIS is why the exhibition industry is fading...literally

This is topic THIS is why the exhibition industry is fading...literally in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Arnold Chase (Member # 7988) on 09-27-2015, 10:48 PM:

Every Sunday night I get together with a group of local guys to see the Sci-Fi and Action/Adventure films that our wives will never go to. Tonight our group went to the Bow-Tie theater in Hartford, CT to see Black Mass. As soon as the trailers started, we all turned to each other to say, "Does that picture look really dim to you?"

I obviously know what a 7 fl image is supposed to look like, and my best estimate is that what was presented was around 1 or 2 fl. Scenes that were in bright sunlight were hardly there, and almost everything in interior shots was gone. In addition, there was almost no contrast to any image. One of the guys left to report the issue, and he came back with the manager who told us that they were "working on the problem", and then left. As the second trailer played with the same pathetic quality, our entire group decided to leave the theater.

The manager was in the lobby, and suggested that we see another film, but the only title that was starting around that time received a 38% positive on "Rotten Tomatoes", so we asked for a refund. Since I am a trained Christie tech, I inquired as to specifically what the problem was. The manager informed me that the projector in that house was a "really old" projector, and something had broken in the lamp-house which needed replacement parts, but they were having a tough time getting them.

When someone in our group asked him why they would still sell tickets to a crippled showings, he said that the ticket people "should have told the customers there was a problem". The ticket people immediately said to him that they were never told that there was a problem, and he did not respond.

This is so wrong on many levels, as they would be hard pressed to make their movie-going experience any worse than it was. To allow this to go on for an extended period of time is inexcusable. BTW, this is the same theater that also had a dead center dialog channel out in one of their houses with for at least three months. I attended a showing in that house, and the only dialog anyone could hear was from what leaked out of the left and right speakers.

Bow-Tie ought to be ashamed of themselves for doing their best to hasten the day when theatrical exhibition ceases to exist, because the home experience is SO much better.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-27-2015, 10:56 PM:

Well the home experience is SO much better than that Bow Tie theatre. There are still 35,000 other screens, most of which are probably better.

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 09-27-2015, 11:26 PM:

Picture dimness is a major problem. The worst is when it is 25% off or so. That is hard to make a case for because you know something is off, but not enough to make an easy case to the manager. The times I complained to a manager, i got nothing but a "we will look into it" response. It has happened at almost every movie chain i have beeen to - regal AMC. Didnt matter.

Posted by Arnold Chase (Member # 7988) on 09-27-2015, 11:59 PM:

quote: Pravin Ratnam
Picture dimness is a major problem. The worst is when it is 25% off or so.

I would have tolerated a 25% REDUCTION. This was a case of far less than 25% of the lamps TOTAL brightness. You couldn't dial down a lamp that low normally. I think they (as is their norm) ran a lamp until it exploded and destroyed the mirror, and then continued to run with a partial or missing mirror.

Imagine watching a scene and trying to figure out what you just saw.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-28-2015, 12:45 AM:

I've seen similar things happening during presentations. Suddenly the image went from normal to dark gray on light gray. Scenes in daylight looked like being shot during full moon and dark scenes ending up being all dark grey with hot spots of light grey.

In this case it was a Barco projector and it had a red tail light going (projection booth here is an open affair and you can see the projectors in the lobby, those projectors probably have a good coating of popcorn oil going inside them).

But people are just zombies. I was the only one who actually left to complain, most people seemingly didn't notice it. But they didn't even try to fix it: Sorry, no techs around. Money back? The movie is still running, isn't it..?

I still remember back when I actually worked as part-time projectionist. A colleague of mine messed up a build job and ended up mixing reels. I guess he was drunk, because the credits ended up somewhere in the middle and it was my job to run the "premiere"...

People just left when the credits started after about an hour and a few minutes. I was working in the lobby when people suddenly streamed out of the still dark theater. They complained about it being a silly movie and being far too short, but in the end we received ZERO complaints...

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-28-2015, 12:47 AM:

Given that d-cinema xenons are more expensive and have a shorter life than their 35mm predecessors (based on the ones we use, I'd say very roughly around $2.50 per hour for digi vs. $1.50 for film, excluding the electricity cost), there was always the risk that this would happen. Even in the film days, the less, shall we say, fussy houses running their bulbs until they either blew up or flickered like the proverbial candle was a well-known problem.

Given that the collateral damage from an explosion in a digital lamphouse is likely to be a lot more expensive (reflectors cost more and the space more confined, with more components closer to the bulb), plus the control software in digital projectors having nag features to discourage the overrunning of bulbs, I'd have hoped that the problem would reduce, and maybe it has. But I'm not surprised that it still exists.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-28-2015, 12:48 AM:

I had a similar issue go with a Barco: Light dimming badly.

When the installer attaches the cathode adapter to the bulb, it's extremely important that the allen set screw is snugged down to make solid contact with the cathode of the bulb, for threading the adapter to the bulb doesn't secure total metal to metal contact.

What happens if that set screw isn't snugged down, it heats up the focus assembly of the module to where it will destroy that entire assembly and cable.

A replacement back end assembly is needed for repair.

Wonder if the installer ever shown these people how to do filters on a BARCO, which is the easiest to do and to maintain since they're washable filters.

Wonder if the Bowtie uses Sony units. Things love to overheat and bulbs go black well before warranty hours.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 09-28-2015, 06:24 AM:

Bow Tie went with Christie Solarias. They drop a lot of money into the NYC/Manhattan locations that they acquired from Clearview (a REAL bunch of bottom-dwellers) but out in the 'burbs it is hit and miss. A lot of the screens they picked up were horribly twinned/tripled/quaded former single screen theaters. There's one screen near me (#4 at the Bellevue in Montclair, NJ) that has the most laughably keystoned image i've ever seen. They still run a better ship than their predecessors, though, but in some ways I think they are in over their heads.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-28-2015, 09:04 AM:

quote: Pravin Ratnam
That is hard to make a case for because you know something is off, but not enough to make an easy case to the manager. The times I complained to a manager, i got nothing but a "we will look into it" response.

In a lot of big chain theaters the manager is almost powerless to do anything about it even if he cares about good show quality. The home offices of these theater chains are very much into penny pinching everything possible. They staff as few people as possible, even if you have a 20 minute line for popcorn. They defer maintenance on theater equipment and have as few techs as possible touring the locations in their circuit.

I've seen more than my share of dim d-cinema movies lately and suspected the theater was trying to squeeze extra life out of their lamps to save a few bucks. I think it adds to my suspicion of theaters driving customers to their higher priced fake large format screens. If you spend $16 for a ticket, instead of $9, you'll get a bright picture and surround sound turned up to a properly dynamic level instead of TV speaker volume.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-28-2015, 09:32 AM:

quote: Arnold Chase
I obviously know what a 7 fl image is supposed to look like, and my best estimate is that what was presented was around 1 or 2 fl.

Um. You do realize that 7fL is half of the standard, right?

quote: Arnold Chase
I think they (as is their norm) ran a lamp until it exploded and destroyed the mirror, and then continued to run with a partial or missing mirror.

I'm pretty sure that's not possible. The reflector in all digital projectors is glass and when a lamp explodes, the reflector is completely destroyed. What IS possible, and I have seen it with just about every brand of projector at some point, is the assembly that adjusts the lamp position has failed in some manner and so the operator cannot bring the lamp into proper position to get enough light. It is quite likely this is the part the manager was referring to.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 09-28-2015, 01:14 PM:

> Tonight our group went to the Bow-Tie theater in Hartford

There is the problem!

I thought Clearview was bad, but at least when Cablevision owned them they had a free movie night each week and discounts the rest of the time for Cablevision subscribers.

Once Bow-Tie took over it went from bad to unwatchable. All the Bow-Tie locations around here are former Clearview locations so I can't say how their original theatres were run, but around here people will drive 20 miles out of their way to avoid them.

I would not judge all theatres by the way one company is run.

Posted by Arnold Chase (Member # 7988) on 09-28-2015, 01:32 PM:

quote: Ken Lackner
Um. You do realize that 7fL is half of the standard, right?

Yes. I was using the 3D standard for a reference point which is considered by many to be too dim to begin with.

If you saw the picture, you'd agree that it was not just a lamp misaligned, but a uniform very dim grayness that was unmatched by anything I've ever seen.

If this projector was one of that theater's original DCI units (the theater was originally a Crown theater), then it was probably a Christie CP2000-ZX.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-28-2015, 02:02 PM:

What makes it really bad is that, were we used to pick on "booth monkeys" in the film days where they were, min wage, floor staff employees and giving us bad presentations and the similar.

Now, with digital, it's all pointing towards the management team that used to make the floor staff do these duties and now having to do something they didn't have to do prior...and they really hate it.

Definitely got them out of their comfort zone.

-Monte

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-28-2015, 02:16 PM:

quote: Arnold Chase
I was using the 3D standard for a reference point which is considered by many to be too dim to begin with.

Why would use use the standard 3D light level as a reference point for a 2D presentation?

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-28-2015, 02:26 PM:

7fL is the 3D standard adopted in wonderland!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-28-2015, 02:38 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Now, with digital, it's all pointing towards the management team that used to make the floor staff do these duties and now having to do something they didn't have to do prior...and they really hate it.

Our local Carmike 8-plex always had the GM or one of his assistant managers threading all the shows when they were running nothing but film. The theater has been digital for several years, although they've had a few 35mm screenings since the changeover. I think Inglorious Basterds was the last thing they showed on film.

The old Plitt/UA/Hollywood/Wallace Cache 8 theater that closed here in Lawton several years ago, and was finally demolished not too long ago, usually had minimum wage paid counter personnel threading the shows. For all I know they might have been building the prints too!
[Razz]

Neither approach is perfect, but one would think a theater manager might pay a little more attention to detail than a revolving door of minimum wage paid counter people.

Posted by Arnold Chase (Member # 7988) on 09-28-2015, 08:26 PM:

quote: Ken Lackner
Why would use use the standard 3D light level as a reference point for a 2D presentation?

I was trying to make a point that this 2D show was WAAAY dimmer than even a 3D show would be.

Posted by Frank B. McLaughlin (Member # 6683) on 09-29-2015, 07:40 AM:

I am totally surprised: you have no conception of the economics of theater operation. You lower voltage on blubs or use one size lower than recommended: saves money; minimum wage kids can be taught to thread projectors: saves money; when running 35mm auditoriums and digital in the same complex always soft focus digital so public can't tell difference. Remember: it is all about the money!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-29-2015, 10:19 AM:

It was ALWAYS the fault of management. They hired/kept the booth monkeys. Now, however, they have no one else to share the blame.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-29-2015, 10:40 AM:

It's been said here many times before, those who did film bad will do digital bad.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 09-29-2015, 10:53 AM:

Amen! And the economics of exhibition cited above are some of the reasons I no longer go to the movies.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 09-29-2015, 11:08 AM:

In this specific case, those CP2000ZX are getting old enough that the auto lamp focus assemblies have either failed or need a good cleaning of the x, y, and z actuators. During my short time with Christie (Callahan) covering 114 screens in New Mexico (most of them ZXs) I must have changed out a dozen or so lamp focus assemblies on those (all of them with about eight years of service at that point).

But while waiting for those parts, a trained person can go into the lamphouse and manually adjust the x and y to produce a centered hot spot, and manually match the z setting (with the lamp off) of a neighboring machine to get a reasonably good brighness field. As long as someone doesn't try to do a auto lamp focus, the lamp will remain in position until the focus assembly can be replaced or cleaned. Being inside the lamphouse is definitely not something I'd expect a non-tech to safely attempt.

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 09-29-2015, 02:51 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Neither approach is perfect, but one would think a theater manager might pay a little more attention to detail than a revolving door of minimum wage paid counter people.

poor manager is probably not making much more per the hour!!!

As far as it being an underhanded tactic to let those like us focused on pic quality to buy tickets for the fake large format houses (like Liemax), it works. I saw MI3 in IMAX mainly because of the better brightness that is a sure thing in the Liemax auditorium even if the image was probably the same size as that projected on the biggest screen of a non IMAX multiplex.

That could be IMAX"s new tag line "maybe a tad bigger, maybe louder, but certainly BRIGHTER!!"

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-29-2015, 04:22 PM:

quote:
poor manager is probably not making much more per the hour!!!

That's probably true considering just how many hours some theater managers work. My old friend, Jack Connor, who managed our Carmike theater up until shortly before he passed away, worked longer hours than anyone else I knew here in town. It was crazy how often he would be there from open to close.

I think it's another corporate stunt of penny pinching to have salaried managers working marathon schedules while having as few hourly people as possible on the clock.

quote: Pravin Ratnam
As far as it being an underhanded tactic to let those like us focused on pic quality to buy tickets for the fake large format houses (like Liemax), it works.

I think it only works to a certain extent, mainly on just how badly the customer wants to see the movie. I'll go out of my way to watch a well reviewed movie that has a good Dolby Atmos mix or is using something really rare like 70mm. I see very little attraction for digital IMAX and its HDTV resolution picture. Brighter 3D is the only selling point for me. I think it's a waste of money otherwise. If IMAX can get a lot more of those dual 4K laser systems deployed I might see things a little differently.

It's very easy for me to skip a movie's theatrical release wait three months and then rent it only Blu-ray. The picture is going to look properly focused and well detailed on my 65" HDTV set. And the picture is letter-boxed, just like they have it on the IMAX screen!
[Razz]

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 09-29-2015, 04:28 PM:

We should start a thread with a one line per post list of things wrong with the industry and see how many pages it gets to.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-29-2015, 07:00 PM:

Be an interesting idea, but what's the gain in doing so?

Instead of comments on what's wrong with the industry, see how we can find ways to make it work.

Be a solution and not the problem to the problem.

quote: Louis Bornwasser
It was ALWAYS the fault of management. They hired/kept the booth monkeys. Now, however, they have no one else to share the blame.

What we had here for a good while: a manager who never got involved with the location, never paid attention to the operation while expecting the location's assistant managers to do his work for what little pay they got, never disciplined the staff, yet was quick to point the finger of blame when issues popped up or issues that were beyond man's responsibility. He eventually got the boot.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 09-29-2015, 07:01 PM:

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-29-2015, 07:58 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
It was crazy how often he would be there from open to close.

It will be interesting to see how the industry reacts to the new overtime rules next year. Raises or overtime? Or just hire more part-timers.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-29-2015, 08:14 PM:

Some of the big box circuits have already implemented the 29hr/wk schedule per hourly employee.

Yet, it's composed of not just 29 hours flat, but more as an average.

Thus, one employee can work almost 40hrs one week, but the following week, that employee only gets 15 hours to keep that employee under 58 hours for that two week pay period.

Those that were grandfathered in for the new rule are exempt including overtime.

I see more part time employees being hired.

Posted by James Wyrembelski (Member # 9037) on 09-30-2015, 12:15 AM:

Underemployment becoming more and more the standard....

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-30-2015, 01:53 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
It was ALWAYS the fault of management. They hired/kept the booth monkeys. Now, however, they have no one else to share the blame.

Louis brought up this comment above which I've seen in the past: Managers playing the "Blame Game."

Looks like the better route to be just "an employee with no name and do the jobs required" than to want to move upward and forward to take on more responsibility ... to eventually earn that big target placed on your back where you can be in target range of the incoming missiles launched from the missile launchers operated by the upper suits.

Another "Peter Principle" syndrome here-fail more on the upward movement?

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 09-30-2015, 03:46 PM:

The current cooperate system rewards mediocrity.

Clock in, don't make a sound, clock out. Make no changes, make no waves. Unless, of course, you're increasing rewards card registration percentages at the cost of decent customer service.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 09-30-2015, 05:18 PM:

Things do happen. A single screen theatre I service has a Barco DP 2000. They do care about what is on the screen. This day the UV filter broke in the middle of a show. As it supports the front of the bulb the bulb dropped down. Did not explode but the picture became very dim. They did finish the night this way. Being a single it is the only game. 3K bulb only had 500 hours on it.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-01-2015, 09:38 PM:

Locally most managers are about $9.50 HR based on 40 hours. As salaried employees, they work many more hours for free. NO ONE in the building gets more.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-03-2015, 05:32 PM:

Arnold, please do not create duplicate threads. It's very annoying for people reading through the archive.

But because you created a "part 2" thread, I'm closing this one. If there is a "part 3" thread, I will simply delete it.

Any further replies need to be placed in the "part 2" thread which can be found here. Thank you.