Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: NEC1200C Max Light Output

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Posted by Gregg V. Paliotta (Member # 3661) on 10-24-2015, 10:23 AM:

Looking for a suggestion. I am trying to get a few extra foot lamberts out of an NEC 1200C, about a year old. Using a Ushio 20SN3. Projector is rated to go up to 2680 Watts I believe. Curious, if there is an adaptor that would facilitate a Christie CDXL 23S or another brighter lamp option?

Thanks!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-24-2015, 04:05 PM:

NEC 1200C . You're stuck with that size of USHIO for maximum light.

When you adjust the bulb focus via the info screen, are you getting the highest numbers possible, for 1200C's can get out excellent light with bulb running under 80%.

Don't even think on doing any adaption since it will void all sorts of warranty and put you at a risk in operation.

Good luck. Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-24-2015, 04:26 PM:

NO!...you can put any HS type lamp in there with the supplied adapter but the NEC line of projectors are not the brightest...in fact, they are the dimmest of them all. On any given category, take a Christie or Barco light output on a given wattage and knock off 20% and that is about the light you'll get. They've been fudging their numbers on their (Ushio or NEC's) web page too. They claim that it will do 9700 lumens. Maybe with the best lens they have on the first instant that the lamp is struck (after a 5 minute warm up). But in reality, you are going to get closer to 7700-7800 lumens out of it. You also waste a bit of light overcoming their color too so I suppose if you didn't color correct, you could get some more light out of it.

Max wattage on the lamp is supposed to 2000 watts and don't push that LPS any harder anyway or that will leave you too. It might be rated up to 2400 watts but that would be it. I don't think the projector software will allow you to try and drive it harder, regardless of the parameters you put in (it shouldn't...I'd hope it would try to protect itself).

I'm not trying to be mean about the NEC...they are not particularly failure prone or anything and they use Minolta lenses throughout but light quantity is just not their strong suit. Then again, neither is Christie's CP2210/15...while it can put out some light, it can only do so with "special" lamps that cost a lot more to operate than conventional digital lamps.

Oh, remember too, the harder you drive a lamp, the faster the decay.

Note, on the Barco side of things (just because it is related to getting extra brightness out of a 2K system)...you CAN put in the DXL-22BAF and indeed get it up in the 11,500 lumen range but again, your cost/hour skyrockets. The cost of the lamp goes up and the life span drops to less than half.

If NEC had a baby xenon projector like Barco, that is how you can sneak in more brightness. The DXL-16BAF and DXL-22BAF lamps are extra-short arcs to deal with the .69" chips...as such they are quite a bit brighter than equivalent wattage lamps. Don't believe me, try a DXL-16BAF in place of a DXL-20BAF/L and the brightness is nearly similar on the top-end (closer to 90%).

And think about this...the next jump for the NEC lamp (if you had a NC2000 instead of the 1200) is a 4000-watt lamp!!!! Yes, you can put in a 3000-watt cinema lamp but its light output will be less than the 2000-watt digital (I've measured). That is how inefficient these projectors are. It is probably why NEC is moving towards the laser world (I've heard that they are don't with making new designs in Xenon DCinema projectors).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-25-2015, 10:31 AM:

The only way in your case may be to sell a new screen surface. What is your situation there image size and throw and what surface is presently installed?

I've installed upwards of 335 NEC's at this point in time and for me they have two been uber reliable. Some are six years old. All of my customers mid size screens were equipped with NC-2000's with the exception of six smallish screens that got NC-1200's before the NC-900 was released. Light output may not be their forte, but if you select the right NEC for the right conditions you will have plenty of light to spare and I laugh at all the odd problems people have with the other two brands.

Mark

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-25-2015, 12:35 PM:

Besides that if you leave them off for 2 weeks on 4.215/6 they die?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-25-2015, 04:08 PM:

I can't complain too much about NEC reliability either. They are far from precise and inefficient but reliability, they have done okay. Except for the NC900 where it definitely has had growing pains.

For us, Barco has definitely been the most reliable/unit. That isn't saying that none have failed in some manner but based on our numbers, the odd are better with them. While I've had few outright failures with Christie projectors, I've had far too many show interruptions due to their quirks. Having a show interrupted due to a "lamp unexpectedly shut off" is my biggest beef with them. It happens too often and the stupid projector will not self-recover. It doesn't take a great coder to have a routine that tries to restart a lamp and if it doesn't succeed after a couple-5 tries, then give it up. Note, NEC also is bad about trying to recover from a lamp being off but I don't get the unexpected lamp offs on NEC like I do on Christie. Christie are also the only Ballasts that I've had to reboot on occasion to get them to communicate better.

As for changing the gain of the screen...there is no free there...you are only raising the light level in the VERY CENTER...you aren't really raising the overall light level unless you start curving things and then you have geometric distortions and cropping to contend with. It is true, if you size your projector properly (ANY brand or model) you can get the proper light but OP is working with the NC-1200C, so that option is out.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-25-2015, 07:21 PM:

quote: Marco Giustini
Besides that if you leave them off for 2 weeks on 4.215/6 they die?

No one here does that! They are off for 4 to 6 hours at best if they even get shut off. Many live 24/7 in "Standby".

quote: Steve Guttag
Christie are also the only Ballasts that I've had to reboot on occasion to get them to communicate better.

Christie and NEC are using the exact same ballasts for 4 and 7kw in the large projectors. The NEC control works and looks different but is still issuing the same serial commands to the rectifier. The NC-2000 ballasts are also very similar if not identical to the smaller Chrstie stuff. NEC did for a short while use an off brand Chinese ballast that is not the usual San-Rex make. That was only for a very short time though.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-25-2015, 09:11 PM:

I have no NEC 3200/3400 series in our service at this time so I don't have a ballast comparison there. On the NC1200 and NC2000s...I haven't had communication failures but I have had outright failures! I've had Christie communication failures on CP4220 and CP4230s (different ballasts). Note, the CP2220/CP4220 ballast is NOT the same as an NC2000 ballast...they may both come from SAN-REX but they are not interchangeable physically. I have no doubt that they are OEMed supplies and are built to the manufacturer's specifications. For all I know, the problem may be on the PIB side of things but doesn't clear until the ballast is power cycled (or the TP or the PIB...I've never done one at a time except on the CP4230s where just the ballast has been power cycled). I note that I didn't have the communication problem on our CP2000-ZXes and they used the same ballast as the CP2220 so it might be a communication problem on the PIB end. Either way, it is a problem I get out of Christie I don't get out of the others.

Now NEC does seem to shop at the breakable power switch store!

Posted by Gregg V. Paliotta (Member # 3661) on 10-26-2015, 12:19 PM:

Thanks to all who replied. I'm in Steve's camp on this. I cant get spec out of this machine. I have a 53ft throw and the screen is 28ft wide FIXED with movable top and bottom 15' Max Height. Reflector is fine, even replaced the triax adjustment assembly to see if something was wrong. The screen is a .9 gain. Its a high end post facility. NEC calculator showed I only needed about 7000 lumens with those specs in FLAT. Kelmar double glass AR port window. 60.....14Z Lens. Machine is less than 2 years old.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-26-2015, 02:41 PM:

quote:
No one here does that!

I knew it would not happen on your projectors! [Smile]

Posted by Ian Freer (Member # 1940) on 10-26-2015, 04:01 PM:

A couple of things you could check:
How much physical tilt vs lens shift have you applied in the installation?

I have noticed a very distinct drop-off in light output with lens-shift applied. I have some installations where we have used max lens shift down to keep keystone to a minimum as the theatre geometry is not ideal. In this situation there is a measurable hotspot at the top of the screen (so the max centre fL is much lower than any brightness calculation will say is possible). To get the best light output (admittedly at the expense of image distortion) one would normally centre the lens then adjust the projector's physical tilt so the centre of the projected image is in the centre of the screen.

Also, it would be interesting to know, has the projector performance deteriorated significantly over the 2 years you've been using it or is there no record of fL at initial installation?

Is this the original lamp or has the lamp been replaced once/many times?
Simply re-adjusting the X,Y,Z can gain you a couple of fL after the lamp has settled in (after around 100hrs or so it can be beneficial to recheck the alignment).

When lamps are installed do you use a light meter to adjust the X,Y,Z, or do you use the internal DCC Bulb Alignment meter?
I have seen a couple of examples in an NC-2000 where when aligned using the internal meter, there was an obvious hotspot to the left of the screen. Adjusting the lamp with my PSA achieved far better results on screen but the internal Bulb Alignment number was about half of the max-hold number in DCC at the time. I thought this may have been a significant error with the projector, but upon the next lamp change the internal meter and the PCA alignment correlated perfectly, so I don't know why occasionally there is a discrepancy.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-26-2015, 04:43 PM:

Ian,

There is only so much lens shift available once a given lens is "learned". If you go "out of bounds" on lens shift it will not allow you to save the settings.

quote:
Now NEC does seem to shop at the breakable power switch store!

I have an over seas source for that circuit breaker/switch. It's about $14 USD. The NC-900 switch is available from both Mouser and Digi-Key and is about $7 USD. I advise getting the whole NC-900 switch assembly the first time around and then rebuilding that bad one with a new switch and keep as the spare.The switch is soldered to the board and takes a bit of care in removal. On the outside it appears it is rivited in but it's not really. The plate it snaps into IS rivited.

Likewise, I now have an overseas source for light engines that is less than half of what NEC/Wrong want to charge here in the States.

Mark

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-26-2015, 05:25 PM:

Sometimes the manufacturer is a little overenthusiastic on the allowed lens shift on their machines. I've seen projectors where the white field was clearly hitting the barrel of the lens but the projector was happy with the setting.
A little loss of light is expected. How much I'm not sure but nothing I've ever noticed or identified as 'annoying'. That is much better than keystone anyway. While it's not so annoying with D-Cinema content, just wait till your customer runs a powerpoint presentation or some 1.78/1.66/1.37 content.

Yes, you can create all the macros/function on this planet but then you'd need a proper projectionist to identify the format and select it on the projector! [Smile]

And yes, on older NEC's the light sensor was poor, you could achieve a much better result just looking at the screen and aligning the lamp the old fashion way - shadows are so obvious on those machines.

Posted by Ian Freer (Member # 1940) on 10-26-2015, 06:49 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
There is only so much lens shift available once a given lens is "learned". If you go "out of bounds" on lens shift it will not allow you to save the settings.

This is true, but even at the maximum allowed by memory, there is a 'measurable' (but hopefully not too noticeable to regular viewers) drop in centre fL compared to the hotspot at the top. And the bottom corners are of course getting pretty low by then...
The OP says he's in a high end post facility, so hopefully their requirements for light uniformity should be more stringent than what I consider to be an install on the edge of acceptability...

quote: Marco Giustini
A little loss of light is expected. How much I'm not sure but nothing I've ever noticed or identified as 'annoying'. That is much better than keystone anyway.

In general I agree, hence the setup decisions taken for that location. It's more lens shift than I would like, but it's a better compromise than significant keystone distortion for the reasons you listed.
The projector was spec'd knowing this might be the case so we still have plenty of light in the centre of the screen...

Both my comments were not criticisms of NEC projectors directly, just hopefully helpful comments for the OP to check why he's not got as much light as he wants...

Although the light sensor thing, that is a criticism!
I am not certain of what I'm criticising as it only happened a couple of times. I have not had it happen recently and I didn't change out any sensors, so it's still unexplained at present...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-26-2015, 09:43 PM:

I really dislike the light sensor thing too. And even NEC admits that you should use a meter to do the job right... The meter is really meant for the theater manager / lamp changer type of person.

Mark