Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Are the Big Chains Still Committed to Sony?

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-30-2015, 01:22 PM:

Are the several large chains that made the deal with Sony at the start of digital sticking with them for new builds (not counting screens Sony cannot illuminate)? Or are they going with one of the DLP brands?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-31-2015, 08:15 AM:

Sony released stacking solutions for both their 320 and 515 systems, also Doremi options for TMS compatibility. I guess there is a demand for these systems to fill larger screens (though still not the largest). I guess not many larger chains mix systems without good reasons.

The latest and last really big rollout deals for Asia and South America were DLPs, but it seems Sony is doing well elsewhere.
VUE is sticking with Sony, I read they signed a deal for 400+ 3D systems this year.

I guess no-one will really do a huge system switch now after the roll-out is over. The majority of coming deals will be replacing individual series-1 hardware, and the largest screens will switch to laser. Many systems are still under VPF anyway.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 10-31-2015, 08:43 AM:

I've noticed an interesting thing at a couple of big AMC multi's near me: they went with Sony when they went digital, but since then about half of the screens have been switched to Christie. At first I thought the common denominator was that screens that show 3D were switched, but I'm not sure. The AMC LieMax screens near me are side-by-side Christies.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-31-2015, 12:54 PM:

Imax switched to Christie some time ago.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-31-2015, 03:01 PM:

??? They switched FROM Christie TO BARCO about 3 years ago. Now including the IMAX Laser systems.

Don't know when/how/why/if existing Christie LieMAX installs converted to BARCO systems, though.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-31-2015, 05:15 PM:

Sorry, my bad!

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-02-2015, 09:22 PM:

Surprised they stuck with 2K when 4K DLP came out. Regardless of whatever gee-whiz things they do between the two projectors (or do they even do something?) when running 2D, if the content is 4K it may be higher resolution in the hall next door.

Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 11-02-2015, 10:13 PM:

I guess and hope (someone out there might be able to confirm this for me?) that more recent Sony 4K projectors might be better in contrast than what they originally put out. The originals were vastly inferior to DLPs, or is nobody able to discern crappy images any more? We recently attended a show at a Regal location in Alhambra (suburban Los Angeles, CA) and they ran the typical Sony 4K logo, etc. -- but the image ... OMG, washed out, dull -- just terrible! It's "4K", but a disaster.

We have just a basic 2K (series 1, yet) where I work, and the image is FAR more satisfying. I have to say, I feel sorry for any folks who seek out a show in "4K" resolution* because, if it's one of those early 4Ks, the picture sucks. (That's a technical term.)

*Such as the recent BYE presentations of "My Fair Lady" in the 4K restoration version. The resultant experience of viewers across the country must have varied wildly, even "in 4K".

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-03-2015, 04:33 AM:

Hard to say what and why you experienced what you saw then. The recent Sony machines boast 8000:1, which is even more than todays typical latest laser-projectors.

Earlier Sony machines, 220/320 were quoted in the 2000:1 range, just like most DLPs.

I would admit that DLPs have higher chances for a more consistent image over a longer time span, although I have seen washed out DLPs as well.

Very early Sony machines, like the 105 and 110, are said to have deteriorated pretty quickly. I know a cinema still running a 220, and I heard it is still on the first light-engine. I guess I should go there and see it myself.

Washed out images on these multiplex screens could be due to the machines being to dim, with 4.2kW delivering not enough light for a large screen, through the 3D lens, bad portglas, and maybe with the bulbs running all day. And the owner/operator giving a shit in general.

Concerning dim images from Sony (but probably not exclusively) projectors, that was even a news story 3-4 years back, e.g.:

http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/the-dying-of-the-light

As most news stories about technical things, there are quite a few flaws in these descriptions and citations, but, there's always some truth behind it.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-03-2015, 05:43 AM:

quote: Paul H. Rayton
The originals were vastly inferior to DLPs, or is nobody able to discern crappy images any more? We recently attended a show at a Regal location in Alhambra (suburban Los Angeles, CA) and they ran the typical Sony 4K logo, etc. -- but the image ... OMG, washed out, dull -- just terrible! It's "4K", but a disaster.

Then your projector was faulty.
I agree with Carsten that DLP can be more consistent over time - Sony do need extra calibration steps, it's detailed in the service manual. And if you put DLP and SXRD side by side you really need to look closer to find a difference - on bright image.

But on darker image the black level of a Sony 51x machine is just vastly superior to a 4K chip, which by definition has a lower contrast ratio than a 2K machine.

There is nothing wrong with picture quality on a Sony machine, in fact it's great and if you put an SXRD and a DLP side by side there is no "hands down" winner as someone says. You may like the DLP more or the SXRD but the bottom line is that you will need to pause the content and look carefully for any difference.

If you see a Sony with 'terrible' picture quality, then it needs calibration/parts. Projector do break down, including DLP's. As Carsten says, I've seen washed out DLP's as well.

I have seen old 220's and picture quality was still very good, not more washed out than new 320's. This is a fact.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-03-2015, 06:43 AM:

The perceived contrast on the 220s did look inferior to DLPs (anyones) and I've yet to see an SXRD where the colors looked right...especially green. It isn't that it is a bad picture...just that I prefer the DLP look.

And yes, DLP in 4K has a notably lower contrast than their 2K counterparts. Same with the S2K machines.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-03-2015, 06:46 AM:

quote: Steve Kraus
Surprised they stuck with 2K when 4K DLP came out. Regardless of whatever gee-whiz things they do between the two projectors (or do they even do something?) when running 2D, if the content is 4K it may be higher resolution in the hall next door.

Someone familiar with IMAX on a technical level told me they actually switched to Barco 4k XENON machines for larger screens, not only because of the 4k signal resolution, but because of the slightly increased brightness of the larger imager.

They still went into these machines over HD-SDI in 2*2k, because they needed to go through their 'black-box-raster-image-secret-saucer'. So that whole 2*2k system was not IMB or 4k compatible. That was also the reason they built their own secure housing around the LiMAX system, because they needed the HD-SDI signals without encryption to be processed by their black box. And the only way 'they' would allow this was to use secure boxes, secure harnesses, etc. The Doremi servers used on those systems had HD-SDI encryption disabled and thus were blacklisted.
Of course, these 4k machines, even when fed with 2k, also had the added benefit of a less visible raster pattern on those larger screens.

- Carsten

Posted by Jason McMillan (Member # 5542) on 11-03-2015, 08:17 AM:

quote: Mark Ogden
I've noticed an interesting thing at a couple of big AMC multi's near me: they went with Sony when they went digital, but since then about half of the screens have been switched to Christie

I also noticed this myself at a recent AMC 24-plex remodel near me here in Texas. Prior to the remodel, this theatre was all Sony... after the remodel, a number of screens are now Christie.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-03-2015, 08:39 AM:

A couple of years ago, I attended a screening at a Regal theatre in Florida.... 10 - 12 screens, I think. After the screening, we got a tour of the booth. All screens were Sony, except for the two largest ones, both of which were Barcos.

When I asked why, the manager said they had started with Sony's, but couldn't get the same quality of picture they had with the smaller screens. They converted those two screens to Barco and were very happy with them.

I have no technical info to attach to this... just found it interesting.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-03-2015, 08:47 AM:

As the Sonys max out around 20.000 lumens, that is quite understandable. Add 3D, and options were quite limited. At the time, there were no stacking options for Sonys as well.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-03-2015, 09:17 AM:

As Carsten said, it was because of brightness. That is picture quality too.

That does not make the Sony a bad machine. If it did, then Dolby 3D would be the worst 3D on the market [Smile]

You just have to acknowledge that Sony machines are not the brightest. And remember that 4K in DLP world is delivering a very poor contrast ratio by definition.

Steve,
I noticed blue's were different but again I had to look at a still picture on screen to see the difference. Too many people are going around saying that Sony is delivering a terrible picture, washed out, with fake colours. That is not true, period. It is slightly different, sure, and we may like DLP or SXRD more, sure.

On a bright scene we may have an educated argument on what we like most, DLP or SXRD.
On a darker scene I can't see how you could choose the DLP to be honest.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 7758) on 11-03-2015, 02:01 PM:

If the Sonys are LCD-based, does that mean they're prone to LCD rot like other brands? A movie at our local videma running Sony 4K projectors had a portion of the lower left of the picture having a touch of purple, most noticeable in bright scenes or a black-and-white sequence.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-03-2015, 02:24 PM:

Sony projectors need some calibrations that DLP don't need - you just have to put that in the bucket when you purchase a Sony.

The issue you are describing may also indicate dirty optics inside the projector (chips are sealed, most of the light path is not) or a faulty optic part.

I've seen many DLP's with a 'touch of green' on screen. Sony indeed need someone to clean the optics inside at maintenance time but I don't really see that as an issue. Your car needs an oil change every xxxxx miles. If you don't change the oil and the engine broke, you don't blame the manufacturer.

That said yes, if you don't clean a DLP machine the effect on screen is less obvious - but is that really an upside?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-03-2015, 04:22 PM:

The SXRD Panels are in fact reflective (as all LCoS are), like DLP. However, one could argue they are still based on LCD technology, and while light is reflected from DLP mirror surfaces, it actually travels INTO an SXRD panel surface to a small extent, and is reflected back from there. Panel wear, however, is very different from transmissive 'real' LCDs that way. There are a lot of stories, but very little hard facts

The left side discoloration is a typical issue with R510/515 when operated in 'not-so-clean' booths. The light-engine side air inlet does use laminar airflow to keep filters and mirrors clean. However, the reusable air-filters are not super-good, and the optical-filter frames create sort of a 'dead spot' on the filter front part (screen left) for the laminar airflow - hence dust accumulates there and needs to be cleaned away from time to time. These elevated filter frames are clearly a design flaw.

You can calibrate that discoloration out using Sonys calibration camera as well (partially...), but, once you know where it comes from and how easy it is to clean, doing it the proper way is the only proper way.

These new Sonys are really built for very clean booths, and, as always, beware of the popper...

- Carsten

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 7758) on 11-05-2015, 12:27 AM:

This being a local Edwards Cinema, with presentation quality over the years being entirely hit-and-miss, it doesn't surprise me that the booth just might not be clean enough to eat off of.

Thanks guys, that was very educational. Don't ever let me in that booth, I might just wring some necks. But that's OK, as it appears that within about 18 months Edwards, with a total monopoly in our town of 200,000, is finally going to get some needed competition.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 11-05-2015, 06:57 AM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
The SXRD Panels are in fact reflective (as all LCoS are), like DLP. However, one could argue they are still based on LCD technology, and while light is reflected from DLP mirror surfaces, it actually travels INTO an SXRD panel surface to a small extent, and is reflected back from there. Panel wear, however, is very different from transmissive 'real' LCDs that way. There are a lot of stories, but very little hard facts.

There is a pertinent lack of objective, large scale studies comparing both technologies witch each other, so it's all a bit based on personal accounts.

But, since the mirror is behind the LCD layer, light travels trough the LCD layer, not just once but twice actually. LCoS and thus SXRD is prone to "LCD wear" from the constant exposure to high light levels and the remaining UV light still coming trough, despite UV filters. LED or laser based sources might probably be promising candidates to increase longevity of LCoS based light engines, since it doesn't produce any UV light.

I witnessed this wear on a 220 with some years of intensive use in a small local cinema. This machine is also still on the first light engine. Despite attempts at re-calibration, colors still look somewhat washed out. It's not terribly distracting for most movies and most people will probably not even notice, but if you're watching content with vivid imagery, it becomes clear almost immediately, if you know the difference of how it is supposed to look.

Personally, I like the look of very bright images on a LCoS based projector more than on a DLP projector. But an all-white shot on an LCoS based projector that hasn't seen any calibration for a long time looks just awful. It seems that some parts of the LCoS surfaces wear out in a different pattern than others.

It seems to me DLP is a little bit more immune to this. DLP obviously has other symptoms, like an increased chance of stuck mirrors over time. Also, if you see how a DLP heat sink looks after a few years of heavy use, you could easily imagine some wear on the mirror surfaces affecting reflectance. More recent TI DMD chips use a dark coating on the backside of the DMD, to further reduce light leaks and increase "blackness". This coating will probably suffer the same way those heat sinks suffer over time.

I wouldn't discount LCoS as a viable technology for the future entirely. Right now it's clear the LCD based approach has some limitations regarding maximum light levels that can be handled. Things can be partly overcome by stacking units, but that's a rather expensive hack if you ask me.

Still, if you look at the semi professional and professional LCoS market beyond cinema applications, you see some quite amazing things being done with LCoS based projectors. One big advantage is the almost complete lack of spacing between pixels and therefore a far less visible pixel grid, without the need of focus trickery. Also, some of those projectors show promising dark levels, without the need of trickery like auto-iris or the need of a very expensive double-stepped light engine approach.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-05-2015, 07:22 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
I witnessed this wear on a 220 with some years of intensive use in a small local cinema. This machine is also still on the first light engine. Despite attempts at re-calibration, colors still look somewhat washed out.

Did you re-calibrate gamma and White Balance too? Shooting 100/80% is not enough after a while. It's part of the service schedule of the machine, nothing special.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Personally, I like the look of very bright images on a LCoS based projector more than on a DLP projector. But an all-white shot on an LCoS based projector that hasn't seen any calibration for a long time looks just awful. It seems that some parts of the LCoS surfaces wear out in a different pattern than others.

As said, that is the light path getting dirty.

You just have to acknowledge that a Sony machine needs some maintenance steps which - if not performed - can affect your picture quality. It's an expensive machine, I can't see this as a massive issue to be honest. I cannot negatively judge a projector because the picture quality degrades over time if you don't service the projector! Sure, DLP's are better on this regard. But I wouldn't pay a ticket to a cinema who intentionally refuses to have their system checked every 12 months. If the projector is abandoned to its own destiny, the same will apply to the sound system and to everything else in the building.

Finally, I heard of this 'washed out' issue with Sony machines too. Personally, I've never seen a Sony - doesn't matter how old - with washed out picture. I don't doubt you saw it but it was either a faulty/dirty machine or maybe something that has been addressed before my time in the D-Cinema world.

I do remember someone saying "we look forward to seeing DLP 4K chips available on the market so we can finally have proper contrast ratio" though [Big Grin]

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 7758) on 11-05-2015, 06:21 PM:

quote: Marco Giustini
But I wouldn't pay a ticket to a cinema who intentionally refuses to have their system checked every 12 months.

Since our alternatives are a minimum of 25 miles away, once in awhile I go back to Edwards to see if it's still as bad as I remember it. It could be worse, could be much better.

However, most of the time, on the infrequent occasions I actually get to enjoy going to a theater, we typically make the trek!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-16-2015, 03:25 PM:

http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=4208

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Basingstoke, U.K.—Nov 16, 2015
Mars Cinema Group Chooses Sony 4K Digital Cinema Providing Unmatched Image Quality to A Greater Number of Movie Goers

Turkey’s largest cinema operator, Mars Cinema Group, has chosen to purchase a total of 82 digital cinema projectors from Sony
One of Turkey’s most prestigious cinema chains, Mars Cinema Group, has chosen to purchase a total of 82 Sony Digital Cinema 4K projectors to provide state of the art digital 4K to its customers in their upcoming new cinema builds over the next year. Mars Cinema Group will be equipped with an array of Sony’s 4K digital projector and 3D systems in the coming months.

Mars Cinema Group provides services with Cinemaximum cinemas in Turkey. Its theatres are already 100% digital and the operator combines crystal clear 3D picture quality with all the advantages 3D brings to the movies, ensuring its visitors have a realistic, unrivalled cinematic experience. Mars Cinema Group also holds a box office market share of 50% in the rapidly expanding Turkish cinema industry.

The decision to press forward with Sony Digital Cinema 4K for their new cinema builds ensures Mars customers will continue to experience the very best in picture quality, enjoying crystal clear content. Movies projected in Sony 4K are bursting with life-like detail and rich vivid colours. 4K has come of age and is the choice of audiences and the industry alike with more and more movies being shot in 4K and mastered as a 4K DCP.

Sony will supply 45 digital cinema 3D systems as well as providing 41 SRX-R510P projectors, giving audiences the immersive thrill of Sony 4K in smaller auditoriums. 29 SRX-R515P projectors will be supplied for the mid-sized auditoriums and 8 of Sony’s new DCI certified dual projection system the SRX-R515DS will be for Mars Cinema’s large premium screens. Utilising an industry leading 8,000:1 contrast ratio with the performance of the SRX-R515 projector head, the SRX-R515DS assures best-possible image quality with the lowest operating costs and easy set up thanks to the unique high pressure mercury lamp arrays in both projectors for premium large format (PLF) screens. It combines two Sony SRX-R515 projectors, delivering reference light levels for 2D presentation on screens up to 19.5m for 14ft-L on white screen with 1.8 gain, or 3D on screens as large as 23m for 4.5ft-L on silver screen with 2.4 gain (installation dependent). On smaller screens, the system delivers a lot of headroom in light output for those exhibitors who would like to project 3D images already going beyond today’s light level standards.

From Ankara to Van, Mardin to Izmir, a total of 10 new cinemas belonging to Mars Cinema Group will be installing Sony Digital Cinema 4K. The systems will be set up by Omega Cinema Systems, Sony’s digital cinema distributor and a trusted expert in complete Digital Cinema Solutions around Turkey and neighboring countries. Mars Cinema Group will also receive maintenance and support from Omega Cinema Systems for the next 5 years. This gives the cinema operator the peace of mind and freedom to focus on their customers, providing a comprehensive and flexible approach allowing operators to build a sustainable business on their own terms. Sony 4K digital cinema projector systems offer movie-goers the highest quality, most immersive and entertaining viewing experience possible.

Sony Digital Cinema 4K Business Development Manager Tim Potter welcomed the partnership, stating, “In a time where movie goers are demanding the best visual experience, we are seeing a greater demand for improved image quality in cinema. From large cinema chains to smaller independent theaters, Sony is already offering movie-goers superior viewing experience with Sony 4K Digital Cinema projectors in over 18,000 cinemas. We are very happy that with this partnership with Mars Cinema Group we will be able to offer even more people 4K and Sony Digital Cinema 3D quality in cinemas across Turkey.”

“We are continuing our efforts to offer the best cinema experience in all corners of Turkey. As we continue to grow, our need for new projectors has also grown.” said Kurt Rieder, CEO of Mars Cinema Group. “We carefully compared 4K offerings from all manufacturers and Sony’s projectors distinguish themselves by being the best image quality available on the market today. Sony Digital Cinema 4K lets us give our guests the picture quality they deserve. This combined with a low total cost of ownership made the deal really attractive to us and our guests”.
---

You probably wouldn't call this a 'BIG' chain, but deals like this have become scarce now in the digital cinema market with the rollout being completed.

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 11-16-2015, 05:34 PM:

It seems like they're gong to open 84 new screens alongside their existing 589 screens in the coming years.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find what hardware their existing installs are based on.

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 11-16-2015, 05:41 PM:

AMC has started to install Christie only booths in NJ lately. They just retrofitted an old UA theatre complete with new Christies.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 11-16-2015, 06:17 PM:

Funny you should mention, Bernie. I just ran into a bunch of guys from Christie this afternoon at the Garden State 16. They're prepping the booths to rip out all the Sonys and put in their stuff.

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 11-17-2015, 03:48 PM:

Considering there is only 2D sony's left at GS16, it never made any sense to me that they wouldn't just convert the entire booth to Christies. Me on the other hand, still have crap 220's to content with. Gotta love blue, red and purple looking pictures with 2fl of light.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 11-17-2015, 09:56 PM:

quote: Bernie Anderson Jr
AMC has started to install Christie only booths in NJ lately. They just retrofitted an old UA theatre complete with new Christies.

2k or 4k?

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 11-17-2015, 10:46 PM:

Not sure, most people I talk to at other theatres have no clue about any of the equipment. Most likely 2K, but until I see them, I don't know. To be honest, I haven't seen much 4K content anyway.