This is topic Trinnov Audio - OVATION digital cinema processor in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 12-13-2015, 05:13 PM:
Does anybody have experiance with this cinema processor?
As i see company is French and specification is mostly CP750 a like, but would like to hearopinions.....?
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-14-2015, 01:57 AM:
The main issue I see is the lack of HDMI ports.
Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 12-14-2015, 02:20 AM:
Why the lack of HDMI would be issue for audio processor?
Posted by Danial Simmonds (Member # 4638) on 12-14-2015, 06:22 AM:
It seems to be advanced compared with CP750, but i dont know, have never used it before.
Interesting is that it has 2 XLR Mic inputs, do they both work the same time? That would be interesting.
Automatic EQ with 8 Mic inputs for calibration thats also interesting.
To access the interface only use VNC or keyboard, mouse and monitor.
To me it sounds more expensive in price, really hope to hear from someone who has set it up before.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-14-2015, 07:07 AM:
Trinnov is a bit of a name in europe, they are not a newcomer in the cinema business. Still, I think it will be hard to compete now after the digital rollout is over.
When you look at the back of this processor, it is obvious that there is a small (Micro-ATX?) PC contained in it that allows the software audio optimizer and other higher level functions to run. That means, the capabilities are certainly interesting. But I hope the audio core itself does not depend on a common OS's realtime capabilities...
It does have loads of digital input options, and at some point could probably be used for object based audio routing.
And yes, I would love to see HDMI audio decoding capabilities in a modern CP as we have in our AP20.
Has anyone seen a price?
- Carsten
Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 12-14-2015, 02:07 PM:
quote: Marin Zorica
Why the lack of HDMI would be issue for audio processor?
Marin, that's a perfectly rational question that I myself would have asked
a couple of years ago. But now that 99% of my work involves screening rooms
and film festivals, where often I must deal with audio from sources such as
dvd/blu-ray decks, computers, media players, etc,- - having the ability to pass
audio directly to an HDMI port on the processor from these devices without
going through extra break-out boxes and the associated cabling and power
supplies, etc can be a big 'plus' in the type of environment I'm working in now.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-14-2015, 04:56 PM:
With digital equipment some important screenings are live or on alternative sources. Everything comes via HDMI. Yes, you can maybe have a SPDIF source as well but an HDMI input - as with the AP20 - makes things very easy.
Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-14-2015, 09:41 PM:
Does not the media block that accepts the video over HDMI convert the audio to AES/EBU so it can be sent to the processor like when playing a DCP?
Harold
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-14-2015, 10:19 PM:
Some media blocks (e.g. the Dolby cat745) do, but I agree with the above comments that the AP20 is basically the gold standard if you have to be able to deal with a wide range of consumer, semi-professional and professional media formats in the same theater. A media block based approach probably won't give you the option to do much in the way of processing the audio that comes in via the HDMI (e.g. send mono on L/R to the C channel only, decode DTS/Datasat, etc. etc.), and may also be limited in the types of video stream it can accept.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-15-2015, 12:35 AM:
Harold
Badly! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 12-15-2015, 04:02 AM:
Yes, cool for HDMI, but for barco alchemy also somebody did tell us audio is passing true and you have audio from HDMI on AES outputs. I like to have that way rather than to split audio to processor only.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-15-2015, 06:07 AM:
None of the mediablocks actually "Decode" the audio that may be on HDMI (Dolby True HD or DTS Master Audio). If the audio is LPCM then yes some do indeed pass that right along on the normal AES outputs.
While the DATASAT AP20 does decode audio, it can handle DTS Master Audio but not Dolby True HD so you will get a low-bandwidth AC3 version of the track of Dolby True HD is the primary audio track...which is better than nothing. The AP20 is definitely the most flexible of the DCinema processors in terms of ins/outs.
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-15-2015, 06:39 AM:
I don't know what is decoded and what isn't, but I have seen 5.1 audio come out of the Doremi IMB and IMS with HDMI input. Blu-Ray players have to be set for standard 2.0 output (no DTS or Tru-HD) otherwise you get zero sound (usually there's sound in the stupid trailers that plague these disks but none for the feature) and usually 2.0 on playback.
You can decode Dolby Digital with a CP750, and also decode L/R Pro-Logic if you really want to. Pro-Logic is actually not bad from a digital source where the phase relationship "should" be perfectly maintained.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-15-2015, 10:10 AM:
SX-3000 also outputs AES from the HDMI input and I assume the 2000AR also does since the IMB is common to both. I have set up may Brue Rae Prayers on the SX-3000. One just a couple days ago.
Mark
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-15-2015, 02:50 PM:
There are some players than can decode DTS or Dolby in all formats to discrete LPCM on HDMI. That would be the perfect match for those IMBs that will do only LPCM HDMI->AES passthrough. However, that feature is often not explicitly mentioned, sometimes not even in the manual. Usually the player should recognize the HDMI sinks audio decoding capabilities and set the audio decoding mode to discrete LPCM when the IMB/IMS signals 'LPCM only spoken here'.
I would always favor that solution, have the 'cheap' consumer equipment decode all those weird expensive codecs instead of the IMS/IMB. Those players are sold by the millions and codec licenses are cheap.
- Carsten
Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-15-2015, 11:26 PM:
On decode licenses, the royalty paid by a cinema processor manufacturer to decode audio bitstreams exceeds the cost of a fair number of Blu ray players. HDMI is also not cheap...
Harold
Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 12-16-2015, 03:41 PM:
Since units are mostly made to meet dci specificaion, where home decoding capabilities are not mean to be used? And next, yea, to pay for technology....just try to take count number of dolby cp750 vs. number of say yamaha av receivers on market....
Posted by Larry Zuverink (Member # 1483) on 06-07-2016, 05:11 PM:
We had a demo of this a couple of weeks ago. It was the most amazing thing I have ever heard. The time phasing that it does in setup literally eliminates an amazing amount issues that takes several hours to do manually. I know of three other chains that bought the demo and had it left in.
It turns even 5.1 into immersive sounding sound.
I highly recommend going to or getting a demo of this if you have a chance.
Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 06-07-2016, 10:05 PM:
Sounds nice! What's it cost?
Harold
Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 06-08-2016, 12:42 AM:
I wonder how closely related this box is to the Trinnov Altitude 32 home theater processor? Also essentially a PC, decoding all of the home theater surround codecs, plus using Trinnov's own optimization and speaker remapping.
quote: Larry Zuverink
We had a demo of this a couple of weeks ago. It was the most amazing thing I have ever heard. The time phasing that it does in setup literally eliminates an amazing amount issues that takes several hours to do manually. I know of three other chains that bought the demo and had it left in.
The Trinnov optimizer is really, really good. Dirac Live in the Datasat AP20 is, as well, though I often wonder how many theaters bother to use it and how many just calibrate the traditional way with parametrics.
quote: Larry Zuverink
It turns even 5.1 into immersive sounding sound.
Is that allowed, though? I know Barco is careful to tell people with Barco AP24s that they can only use the upmixer on pre-show content. Studios and filmmakers are understandably twitchy about applying up mixers to 5.1 or 7.1 theatrical mixes.
Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 06-08-2016, 01:39 AM:
I have a certain amount of difficulty imagining that anyone will pay significant money for one of these things and then use it only content other than the actual movies.
Are they being sold on the "wink wink nudge nudge" basis?
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-08-2016, 01:45 AM:
I am not a Trinnov employee but I did help with some of the demo installations. 5.1 and 7.1 are 5.1 and 7.1, if you run pink noise in 7.1 for example you will get 82 on the surrounds, either per channel, or per side in 5.1.
The key to the system is time alignment, you can easily see the response of the speaker in 2 way, 3 way or 4 way crossover alignment and set for the least dip at the crossover point. You also see the distance variances between the screen channels including sub, and surrounds. So it's time aligned within the channel, and for the whole system.
In the end, I hear what many people have described as a more immersive playback of 5.1 and 7.1. I've had this experience in a dozen rooms now.
The processor is also an analyzer, with graphic representations of the measurements of frequency, phase and impulse response, as well as a final report.
Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 06-08-2016, 02:01 AM:
quote: Mike Babb
5.1 and 7.1 are 5.1 and 7.1, if you run pink noise in 7.1 for example you will get 82 on the surrounds, either per channel, or per side in 5.1.
That is a misunderstanding on my part then. The AP24 will turn 5.1 into 11.1, although only for pre-show (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). Harman is also selling a Quantum Logic box that will upmix 5.1 or 7.1 to immersive 3D, with unclear implications for how theaters will use that feature for feature films.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-08-2016, 04:09 AM:
They are using a lot of the same measurement, time alignment and correction technology as the Altitude but the Altitude does Dolby Atmos, DTS-X and Auro 3D. I have no hands on time with the Altitude, but it can be set up with a 3D microphone whereas the Ovation uses an 8 mic system. No remapping is used in the commercial cinema box.
Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 06-08-2016, 06:58 AM:
How does time alignment between different speakers work? It seems like it would only be aligned at one listening position, and we have a few hundred in an auditorium.
Harold
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-08-2016, 10:29 AM:
Harold, I take your point regarding listening positions. Specifically, it measures and compensates for the delay/distances from the speakers to the reference point, first within the channel and then channel to channel.
Beyond that though, I wonder how many systems are aligned precisely within the channel, and then channel to channel, in the world of cinemas? Surely having the ability to see time alignment, and then being able to align to a reference point would yield improvement in most systems?
In the field I very often find speakers out of phase, even within a cabinet, so flipping it +/- to be more correct is a step, but being able to see the rest is pretty cool.
Posted by Larry Zuverink (Member # 1483) on 06-08-2016, 01:24 PM:
I should have been more clear. It is actually playing 5.1 or 7.1. But it makes 5.1 and 7.1 sound like it should. The ending results feels more immersive.
The cost is around $5k us. They do not have any decoding yet but from what I understand they are working on it. It does have a 8 channel input so alt content can be decoded externally.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-09-2016, 06:43 AM:
I'll say this...I've found that some "factory" presets for time-alignment have not been accurate. That is, altering the factory preset for delay within the speaker system has yielded improvement in response via actual measurement within the theatre.
There are a lot of factors that go into a pleasing sound system...most are not controlled by the cinema processor. Starting with the room acoustics, you can never overcome bad acoustics, you can only make the best out of the situation. However, poor set up/equipment can make even good acoustics sound painful.
Speakers are the next biggest factor. There are speaker systems where I've found that the fader on the cinema processor can run at 7.0 without incident but using the same test equipment and essentially the same theatre acoustics, the fader levels have to be MUCH lower to keep the pain level down. Time-alignment was neither the cause nor the cure to either.
In general, the less processing I find I need to do to get the system to perform to spec, generally the better it is going to sound. So getting time-alignment correct will go towards that end by requiring less equalization (which introduces time-alignment issues that now will vary from channel to channel, which will muddy up the phase relationship between the channels).
Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 06-09-2016, 08:13 AM:
Thanks Steve! Is this crossover time alignment? I can see that being important to everyone in the room. Between separate speakers, though, it seems that screen speakers will be time aligned for the center of the audience if the screen is flat. They will not be time aligned for any other position in the audience. Then there are surrounds. I believe the auditorium specific surround delay is to ensure that reverberant sound in the soundtrack arrives to the listener after the direct sound. This works well if the direct sound is coming from the screen. As we move to object-based sound, it becomes interesting. Mixers are apparently doing a 7.1 or similar mix, then adding objects on top of that. The objects never get delayed. Surround "bed" channels do get delayed, but screen bed channels do not. If an object in the back of the room needs reverberation from the front of the room, the audience in the front of the room will hear the reverberation from the screen channels before the direct sound from the back of the room. It gets messy.
Harold
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-09-2016, 01:54 PM:
Harold, I can think of a number of occasions where the center channel dialogue quality was impacted by the left and right speakers, perhaps sub too, and time alignment solved the issue.
Is easier for me, having heard this, and being around many others as they heard it, to say there is a positive effect to the way this system helps you calibrate a room. It's why these guys are quite willing to demo a processor in someone's cinema. Taking an existing system and making it sound better saves a lot of time "selling" and explaining.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-09-2016, 05:28 PM:
it's not hard to pop in a cinema and make it sound better to be honest. Particularly when the last time the system saw an engineer was many years before and for about 15 minutes.
Also for the average listener you only need to turn the subwoofer up to make the system "sound better"
A true test would require a skilled engineer to try and make the most of the existing equipment before the new processor is brought into the equation. IMHO.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-10-2016, 02:51 AM:
Marco, true enough on your first two statements.
In demos I've been a part of we made an effort to A/B existing, and in most cases the rooms were very recently calibrated, one on the morning of. A lot of it is just having the flexible crossover and the ability to measure, visualize and tweak easily.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-10-2016, 03:40 AM:
Mike - BTW I'm not saying that the Trinnov is no good, never heard it.
I reckon the room should not just be 'recently calibrated', it should be calibrated by the same engineer who then does the Trinnov EQ. And possibly a good engineer because you can indeed achieve a better result with Trinnov or Dirac if you use the CPx50 auto EQ or if you leave the graphic equaliser like an electrocardiogram
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-10-2016, 03:52 AM:
Marco, in one case, the engineers I respect calibrated the morning before, I was there for it. Then, we swapped, calibrated, trained them on calibration so effectively they "did" the calibration, and were impressed. In other cases, the demo was in a room I had calibrated, or one of my team.
Part of this is the processor doing a good job, part of it is giving the engineer tools/training to do a better job, even if they are already working at a high skill level.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-12-2016, 05:47 AM:
Thanks Mike
Are there any screenshots, any manuals that show the procedure?
Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 06-12-2016, 05:58 AM:
quote: Mike Babb
In demos I've been a part of we made an effort to A/B existing, and in most cases the rooms were very recently calibrated...
Calibrated yes, but with what? If the answer is with a RTA, then a system that is calibrated in a time aware manner like it seems this Ovation gizmo does is going to thrash the pants off an RTA "calibrated" system every time.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-12-2016, 07:51 AM:
Marco, email or PM me, I can send a manual.
David, most of the reason I wanted to learn about this and help with the demos is so I could increase my knowledge. The existing systems have been calibrated with either a D2 or Smaart 7. I use D2 myself and have for years. Most techs I know use the same or a similar setup for cinema. This processor is an analyzer, clearly showing information in impulse response and frequency, and making recommendations based on that information.
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-12-2016, 02:45 PM:
@Mike Babb,
Are there any Trinnov permanentely installed in the UK?
I've been trying to hear one for a while, also trying to persuade any of my customers to take a demo. I come up against the "it's not Dolby" school of thought.
I've had many discussions with the Trinnov guys in France and everything I've talked to them about makes perfect sense to me.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-12-2016, 02:55 PM:
Pete, none that I know of. PM me?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-12-2016, 06:31 PM:
quote: Pete Naples
I come up against the "it's not Dolby" school of thought.
Well, Dolbly is not Dolbly any more either for that matter. They engineer very little of what they sell and mostly buy up other people's/companies designs. The CP-750 is an antique by comparison to many other current processors out there. Far as I'm concerned Dolby died when ray did. Will never be the same.
Mark
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-13-2016, 01:54 AM:
I don't fault anyone for sticking with Dolby processors, they have been the standard in the industry for years. Setting aside brand, I just appreciate it when people are open to discussion. The SMPTE report that came out awhile back talks about a lot of things. Differences between dubbing stages and cinemas. Differences between high end cinemas and average cinemas. Wide variance in the field as far as technician training and methods. I work with Dolby content services all the time, and they are some of the best in the business. But I also follow other installers that seemingly blindly push frequencies on third octave eq to reach the X curve, regardless of time alignment issues or anything else room and speaker related that may be causing problems.
I firmly believe once this processor begins to take hold, other manufacturers will add more flexibility in the time domain, and either they, or the people making analyzers will tailor technology and training to guide technicians through basic time alignment. The technicians I have talked to perk up when this is introduced to them. It's what got my attention, spending a few days working with one of their engineers in Russia. In the end, if you go through the process, see visually the results of your measurements, tweak in conjunction with your listening evaluation and the parameters available, and get a better result than the existing system, you are ahead of the game.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-13-2016, 02:27 PM:
2 way active crossover image
2 way passive images
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-13-2016, 02:55 PM:
Uhm... I had a conversation some time ago and the impulse response was not considered good for checking time alignment because (if memory serves) the cabinet resonance would affect it. The recommended way is to check on the RTA for best response or simply check the phase directly - which seems to be available on the Trinnov anyway.
What does the Trinnov offer more than a Smaartlive?
Quite interesting though.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-13-2016, 03:02 PM:
Report for Left and Right channels
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-13-2016, 04:49 PM:
Dirac does something similar. I did a test on a single mike (to be able to verify the result) and it straightened the phase of my speaker completely. And it's 'automatic'. It lacks the ability of aligning crossovers though - you have to do that before Dirac with other tools.
And it has HDMI inputs
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-14-2016, 02:12 AM:
Marco, I don't use Smaart myself, I use the D2, I believe Smaart has some of the functionality but this software is in the box, and much more tailored to cinema.
I like the HDMI on the AP20, but I never really embraced the Dirac. I had better results, to my ears anyway, using third octave or parametric and the D2. Working with both processors, it's not apples to apples. The imterface is more informative and flexible.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-14-2016, 12:00 PM:
You're right, Dirac is not the magic wand. The result is always affected by the acoustic (which is time BTW) and the D2 or Smaart (and finally your ears) are always there to help.
Surely the Trinnov seems to integrate all the bits that Smaart has but tailored for the cinema world. The point is that with Smaart you can do an EQ time-minded on any sound processor, not just the Trinnov. If you invest in the Trinnov, then the 8 mikes and the advanced software is only available if you have an Ovation installed.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-14-2016, 01:25 PM:
All I can say to that is I heard about it, looked into it, did some training sessions, and have had some hands on time, the results impressed me and everyone who heard it.
As a sidenote though, I did get my D2 mics calibrated in France so I can use them for Trinnov, haven't tried it yet but in theory the calibration should be just as valid. And finally, the reason I really chased this down is to learn more and get better at what I do. So, time alignment becomes part of my routine with other brands of processors, I will certainly follow that path when I can, and I have a Smaart license on my computer anyway. I already know it won't be quite the same, because the options and parameters aren't the same, but thinking in time before frequency is the way forward.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-14-2016, 01:56 PM:
it's always been. Time is simply more complex to do and more time-consuming: you need a reference from the sound processor, which means more cables particularly these days when you don't need cables at all when you can wifi into the processor.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-14-2016, 03:12 PM:
I agree, but I can tell you quite often it's not done, we are lucky to find it all in phase, and this makes it easier to visualize and tweak.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-14-2016, 03:49 PM:
quite often? It's never done!
I want to clarify that I am not saying that time alignment is not needed and I don't like when sound is done in 15 minutes by dialling the XCurve and walking away. Just saying that that is what normally happens.
As you said, you're lucky if the sound system is at least wired in phase!
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 09-18-2016, 08:57 PM:
hello all, just to let you know a few places you can check out an operating cinema with Trinnov Ovation:
Michigan-Phoenix Theatres Monroe Mall, houses 9 (Encore premium house) and 10
Michigan-Phoenix Theatres State Wayne house 3
Colorado-Crystal Carbondale
California-MiT screening room, Fountain Valley, by appointment only, contact MiT
I'll list some others as I clear it with their management.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 09-19-2016, 03:33 PM:
another
Alamo Drafthouse New Mission 1, San Francisco, CA
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 09-20-2016, 01:35 PM:
Another
Keresotes Icon Roosevelt house 7, Chicago
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 09-22-2016, 01:49 PM:
Showcase Cinema de Lux, house 12, Dedham Mass
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 09-24-2016, 09:43 AM:
Emagine Canton, Michigan, house 11
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 09-24-2016, 03:01 PM:
Sorry for the off topic but the old Showcase Dedham was quite a place Cinemation Mark IV Automations and a great 60's decor. It was one of my accounts for a while but I have not had the chance to check out the new build. Maybe this will give me a reason to go down and check it out and see a show in #12
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 09-24-2016, 04:14 PM:
I was in Dedham before, and the new one now, there's no comparison outside and in the houses. But you might recognize the 35mm equipment and EE automation.
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 09-25-2016, 11:10 AM:
I'm sure, they definitely have a particular package that they go with. I've serviced or seen the booth of almost every NA site around the Boston area. I found Louis's automation to be extremely trouble free. I would be surprised if they still had a lot of 35mm equipment installed though as I imagine everyone has been converting or converted to DLP at least as far as the major chains.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 09-25-2016, 02:24 PM:
The house I was working in had 35mm but none of the others in that wing did. Their automation wiring still passes through the Hadden box.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 09-25-2016, 07:34 PM:
Another in NCG Owosso Michigan, house 7
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-09-2016, 03:53 AM:
In the UK, the Rheged, Penrith, Cumbria.
This is a MegaaSystems giant screen venue.
The previous audio processor was by Peavey. We left the loudspeakers and amplifiers as installed.
More to come.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 10-19-2016, 01:40 PM:
NCG Coldwater Michigan house 1
NCG Midland Michigan house 9
NCG Owosso Michigan house 6
NCG Greenville Michigan house 2
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 10-21-2016, 07:25 AM:
Palm Springs Art Museum Annenberg Theatre, for you California folks
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 12-05-2016, 08:45 AM:
Another demo is installed at Ipic Boca Raton, house 8, for those of you in Florida.
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 12-22-2016, 05:30 PM:
For those in the Republic of Ireland, screen 8, the Eye cinema, Galway.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-22-2016, 05:56 PM:
Is there an actual reason that you all are keeping track of where they are being put in? Imagine if all of the CP750s, JSD60s and DAX602s were treated that way.
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 12-23-2016, 04:12 AM:
Steve,
For me I would like people ( you for example ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
) to go and experience it for themselves, to allow them to make an informed opinion based on experience, rather than heresay. The topic is the Trinnov Ovation, and the proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating. The purpose of this forum is to discuss Film Tech, we should all speak from experience as much as possible.
Trinnov Ovation isn't a CP750 et all, nowhere close.
It really is worth hearing. Our industry should be embracing this technology and taking heed of a manufacturer who is putting the R&D in, rather than rolling out the next generation of the same concept.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-23-2016, 05:14 AM:
Pete, I don't begrudge the topic or discussion. Yes, I'd love to hear one (or many). Build a better mouse trap? I'm interested.
It is the posting of the various installations that turns this less of a discussion and more of just an "ad" for the product. In fact, it buries the discussion part. If anything, all of the posts relating to mere installations tend to be off-putting, to me at least. As I said, imagine I was a fan-boy of the JSD60 and I set about posting each and every installation. It would dwarf any discusiion on the product itself.
To put it in other terms. I liked the Panastereo CSP1200. I discussed it many times in the FHF but never went about posting the sites I put it in. I wasn't a shill for the product but would be glad to discuss it to anyone interested. Now, if I posted pictures in the warehouse (e.g. The AFI/Silver), then like all other equipment in that post, the Panastereo equipment was listed.
What I think might be of more use is posting a product review with as much detail as possible.
By all means, promote the heck out of something you like. I just don't get the continual installation notice thing.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 12-23-2016, 07:32 AM:
Steve, perhaps Pete can comment on this too but when I have spoken to people about it, the number one question I get is where can I hear it. So perhaps I have been overly informative on that point and if so I apologize to the forum. When I first posted there were very few, now there are quite a lot in the US (I haven't posted the last 40 or so installed), so as you say, it becomes annoying to post them all and I would not have. Pete's are the only two so far in his part of the world so its worthwhile I think.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-23-2016, 02:34 PM:
I guess it would have been better (for me, and possibly others) to have a separate thread that was dedicated to the install base. Then if someone wanted to hear it, they could use that thread to find a location near them. Naturally, it would be better if it wasn't in thread form but an updating list by geographic location.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-23-2016, 02:46 PM:
I know I'll be putting one in very soon. Trinnov has left the rest of the industry in the dust with this product and it's pretty reasonably priced...
Mark
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-23-2016, 08:48 PM:
This issue has been teetering for awhile now.
My personal opinion (bold for those who might get their delicate feathers ruffled), the idea of me going to some theater to listen to a sound processor is of absolutely no use to me. A good tech can make a lousy processor sound pretty good and a bad tech can make the best processor sound flat out terrible.
Plus we have room acoustics, speaker models, aiming, baffle wall, etc to take into account, all of which will noticeably affect the sound.
So going into Joe Bob's theater to hear if this processor is any good really doesn't tell me a damn thing. If its not in an auditorium I am familiar with the acoustics and have personally tuned, listening to it is essentially a waste of my time.
So to quote Shark Tank: "for these reasons..." listing the installs really is borderline advertising. Going forward what needs to be done is provide a website to go to for those who want to hear an existing demo or borrow a processor to conduct their own demo. People who then contact that website can then be told through private email where the closest existing install is to them and so forth. We don't allow ads here and this is really getting into that territory.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-23-2016, 08:56 PM:
I honestly probably wouldn't install one of these processors into a theater unless it had a baffle wall and acceptable acoustics. It's kinda pointless to dos o IMHO.
Mark
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-24-2016, 05:09 AM:
I'm with Brad on this one. Too many variables. And the tuning engineer/equipment WILL make a huge difference. Just walking into a cinema to listen won't tell me much, I should be able to hear the before and after and, even better, do my own EQ and then let Trinnov perform theirs.
Mark,
I am still not convinced that Trinnov are leaving the industry 'in the dust' with that. If I understand correctly their EQ is 'simply' a very good one, taking into account direct and reverberated sound and applying filters in a more scientific way.
Datasat are using Dirac which is adjusting the phase of the signal - a pretty major feature if you allow me.
Dolby are now using a sweep tone to align Dolby Atmos. If I am not mistaken that is direct sound only.
So, I wouldn't say that Trinnov is leaving the industry in the dust - they simply chose their way to try and improve things. Not saying it's the wrong way though.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-24-2016, 06:19 AM:
What is the support of it like in the USA? Do they have Repair Exchange?
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-24-2016, 08:07 AM:
Knowing where a new processor is installed does not only allow me to go there to just listen to it, but also talk to the local techs and 'see' it being operated, get my own fingers on it. So it's not completely useless. Also keep in mind, this forum is occupied by installers/integrators AND exhibition users, both have different views on specific equipment and how to approach it. Not that we need a new post for every single installation. Better to have a list that can be forwarded to those interested. Also, even if there is SOME advertising aspect to it, I do like to get an idea how well a new type of gear is accepted.
- Carsten
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 12-24-2016, 09:42 AM:
Hello all,
First of all, in 2016 my relationshio with them was as an outside contractor doing demos and training in the US. Starting January 1st it will be more formal, still on a contract basis, but as an insider in demos, training, support, and assisting the Cinema Sales Manager in whatever way I can. I'm still running my US company and spending much of the year doing film festivals etc.
Regarding Steve's question, we are formalizing the US support and repair exchange procedures soon, as of now it is handled either by the dealer or my company working directly with Trinnov. People may know that in different countries, the dealer structure provides more, or even exclusive contact with the customers.
Regarding Marco's comment, the Ovation deals with time alignment, phase and frequency in the calibration process.
Regarding several comments, of course the skill of the engineer is a huge factor. In demos in 2016, we went to cinemas and did various levels of comparison depending on the time and equipment. The idea is also to train the existing engineer or service company to do the Ovation calibration so they can see they can achieve the results we achieve. The basic process is pretty easy but you do need to start with an audio system that is wired properly, all channels working etc, and as we know that is not always the case. In several cases the existing system was calibrated recently, of the day of the demo so as to have a fair test.
And finally, I won't post locations anymore unless someone asks a specific question. I will answer tech questions to the best of my ability, I am still learning about the advanced capabilities, but the basics and some of the advanced parameters I understand. And of course every room is different, so we learn something every time we do a calibration.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-24-2016, 01:40 PM:
quote: Mike Babb
Regarding Marco's comment, the Ovation deals with time alignment, phase and frequency in the calibration process.
The Dirac EQ actually flattens the phase through the WHOLE spectrum. That is, you end up with 0° phase from 20 to 20Khz. My understanding is that the Trinnov indeed deals with phase and time alignment as you would do by using SmaartLive and a very good EQ system but it does not flatten the phase - am I correct?
I am not trying to start a war on which EQ is better, just commenting on Mark's comments about Trinnov leaving the competition in the dust.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-24-2016, 02:01 PM:
quote: Marco Giustini
I am not trying to start a war on which EQ is better, just commenting on Mark's comments about Trinnov leaving the competition in the dust.
It does. Which other cinema processors have this built in as standard? It's also pretty reasonably priced for it's capabilities when you compare it to the rest.
I also like the idea of directional sound however I have yet to hear a system, or a mix that justifies the expense of installing it. All in all the directional systems going in have been pretty lame and the mixes underwhelming.
Mark
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 12-24-2016, 02:14 PM:
Marco, the optimizer is their own software, measuring impulse response, phase and frequency and dealing with all of them. It shows direct sound as well as room response. I am not sure if the Smaart comparison is apples to apples, I get that you mean to say Smaart works in the time domain, but this is more than a measurement device. I don't know enough about Dirac to compare them, but again, it might not be apples to apples. The best thing is to get some hands on time with the calibration process, and some listening time, which is how I decided it's something I wanted to spend time on.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-24-2016, 04:26 PM:
Mark,
What is the directional sound you are mentioning?
The AP20 has Dirac. And HDMI. And DTS decoding. And an incredibly advanced automation system.
Mike,
I did mention Smaartlive + a good EQ system. Smaartlive per se is just a measuring system as you pointed out.
I cannot remember 100% but I believe I did ask the phase question to Trinnov themselves at an exhibition. My understanding is that the Trinnov would do a fantastic job in PROPERLY measure the sound (as you say, direct + reverberated) and apply FIR filters to properly address it. Phase would be optimised at crossover point and between speakers but it would not be flattened as the Dirac would do.
Again, I'm not trying to say that Dirac is better - just saying that I wouldn't say that the Trinnov is leaving the competition in the dust.
And now I'm thinking about, I reckon the CP850 uses LAKE EQ which does not affect the phase of the system, so not just a basic EQ either.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-24-2016, 08:38 PM:
When I say directional sound I'm referring to Atmos, DTS-X (via GDC) and Barco (what ever their's is called). I've seen enough movies in two of these processes and have yet to be very impressed with them. A good 6-Track Mag Mix is far superior and seems to offer more "knock your socks off" experience.
The cost to install vs return in quality and thrill for these systems is just not there... And Atmos mixes are extremely inconsistent to say the least.
What is still consistant? 5.1 and 7.1 mixes!
Mark
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-25-2016, 02:57 AM:
and are you blaming the technology for that?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-25-2016, 09:32 AM:
Hardly. I actually like the ideas and theory behind the technology, it just has yet to impress. Even a couple of the systems in L.A. area that I heard were underwhelming. There is just no real return on it for the exhibitor except probably charging higher ticket prices which the public seem to want to resist paying these days. ($16.50 for an Atmos show in Utah while most others are still $8.50) All the while there is still tons of room for improvement in existing 5.1 and 7.1 technology. Trinnov hit the nail on the head as far as pushing the technology further along. A number of years back SMPTE was in the process of and may still be revamping mic standards used to eq B-Chains, but as usual SMPTE takes so long to get something done that new technology emerges and then whats the point? None the less they do put out some interesting blurbs every once in a full moon and you might find this one from 2014 interesting.
TC-25CSS B-Chain
Frequency and Temporal
Response Analysis of
Theatres and Dubbing Stages
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-25-2016, 12:01 PM:
I'm actually with Mark on this one (it happens). If you look at the bang for the buck, Surround 7.1 has it. What does it cost? Typically it is 2 amplifier channels and perhaps a rewire of the surround array with no new speakers added (if you did your 5.1 array properly to begin with. We wire all new installations for 7.1 and any that were "EX" in the film days are 7.1 now in the digital days.
Those that have immersive audio, I encourage you to listen to the same movie and switch between 7.1 mode and the immersive mode at various points in the movie (I've done this). It isn't that immersive doesn't add anything it is that it adds, comparatively little to movie and yet cost SO much more. Ask yourself, how many MORE tickets will you sell because of that relatively small perception of benefit will you sell in order to make up for the VERY large up-front costs.
There are rooms that are a natural for immersive audio and more power to them. They need to remain at the cutting edge to remain relevant but that doesn't describe the typical cinema.
As one moves towards lower channel count (e.g. the 16 channel variants of immersive) they narrow the gap between 7.1 even further to make it even less of a wise move (financially).
I'd MUCH rather see the channel count increase or even more in an object based system with channels concentrated on the screen. THAT IS WHERE THE MOVIE IS HAPPENING. I think 5-screen channels and Left-Outside/Right-Outside (or "Wide) are many, many times more important than multiple surround channels. Locating a sound with the picture has an immediate impact on realism that the average person can pick up. I wish that the 16-channel systems thought of that more than the waste-of-time-and-money height channels.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-25-2016, 01:52 PM:
I completely agree on concentrate on the screen. There are plenty of really large screens out there that suffer fomr major holes in the audio placement. Full range systems mounted on the ceiling do absolutely nothing for me, and for 90% of the movie going public.
Mark
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-25-2016, 01:56 PM:
We can talk about that but I thought the original topic was "Trinnov is leaving the industry in the dust", you mentioned temporal analysis. Dirac does that. I don't understand why the AP20 is not leaving the industry in the dust as well to be honest ! (Happy Christmas!)
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-25-2016, 02:24 PM:
For doing a large system the AP-20 wold now be my second choice. I was my first choice.
Mark
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-25-2016, 05:13 PM:
Ok, still not on the topic you introduced.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-25-2016, 07:47 PM:
You're the one that brought up the AP-20. Not me.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-26-2016, 04:22 AM:
What I meant is that you claimed that Trinnov is leaving the industry in the dust with their technology, I disagreed and I brought the AP20 as an example. You haven't elaborated your thought on why the Trinnov is leaving the industry in the dust but the AP20 is not, that's it.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 12-26-2016, 05:56 AM:
I applaud immersive sound for bringing some attention back to cinema sound...having said that, what percentage of commercial cinemas can justify the expense? And if an effort is made to make the cost more affordable, does that in turn make it less worthwhile for the cinema because the overall effect isn't the same? I think as immersive sound finds it place, improving 5.1 and 7.1 performance is certainly a worthwhile goal. Getting the system right creates an immersive experience in 7.1 as a good 7.1 mix is intended to do.
As an example, I heard the beginning of Sully in 7.1 and theres a scene where a taxi zooms off screen and around the back of the room, I could hear it clearly as it panned through left to side to back surrounds. The whole opening sequence was great too.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-26-2016, 10:16 AM:
So Mark...have you put in the Ovation? If not, how do you make your claims? Are you just going to go by flashy gobbledygook that is claimed by the unit (hush up people that have put it in and have done extensive testing, this is for Mark)?
I've heard the dirac and it didn't do much for me though I wouldn't claim to have done enough testing with it to say it is good, bad or indifferent. I don't approach new things with the belief that they either do or don't do something. I let the results speak for themselves. Again, in the film days, I used the Panastereo CSP1200 in lieu of the CP65 (and often in lieu of the CP650) due to the performance I got out of it, including MUCH better control in automated systems. The fact that it was 10dB quieter helped out a lot in screening rooms where hiss was more apparent and objectionable. I used it with both the CM353 SR NR as well as genuine Dolby CAT280Ts. The difference in performance wasn't enough to give either a clear edge, considering the tracks were mastered with Dolby's NR.
But back on topic. It is great that someone is attempting to build a better unit that can improve the cinema experience and I do look forward to seeing what it can do but I will not pass judgement on it (or anything else) just by mere claims. Most claims, in my life, have not been borne out. It is almost like people are just trying to sell me something! I can tell you, I'm not too impressed with its listed features on alternative content. It doesn't list either DTS or Dolby as formats it decodes (the AP20 does up to DTS Master Audio and Dolby AC3, the QSC DPM100H also handles DTS Master Audio and AC3). These are serious considerations for me because they HAVE to be dealt with in most of my theatres. How does it handle going from 5.1 to 7.1 and back? I don't like how the JSD series from USL requires consuming a button for it because I need 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 in just about all of my theatres. The AP20 can check all of those boxes. the CP750 is good with the formats but is allergic to DTS so it poses problems. QSC's DCP line doesn't handle DTS or Dolby decoding so again, if they are to be used, then they have to be dealt with in some manner. Even if a full bore Drag and Drop DSP is used, like Q-Sys...that problem has to be addressed. I do have a solution in my "hip pocket" in the name of Crestron's HD-XSP but that has to be factored into the overall cost and it needs a controller of some sort since it defaults to no inputs selected on each power cycle. The Oppo Blu-ray player has been a means for us to deal with alternative content since it will decode from outside sources though not the high-bandwidth form of the audio.
All of this stuff factors into my decision on what processor to use in a sound system because all of this factors into the bottom line. What a customer will value will vary and saying something sounds better is all relative and hard to quantify in a justification of added expense.
Believe it or not, the fact that QSC refuses to offer a 0-10 fader option is a big strike against them every time a sound processor is chosen. I don't like the added hassle of teaching people how to adjust a fader in negative dB. Is isn't human-friendly. There is zero sense for what is a little bit quieter if the faders is set to -3.0dB. I've actually had to put a conversion chart into the cues so they have a sense...it is an extra pain that I would prefer to do without.
Furthermore, when it comes to sound quality. MANY, MANY factors go into it. The speakers and the room acoustics and such are going to be higher on my list than an esoteric sound processor.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-26-2016, 11:09 AM:
What Steve said with a spotlight on
quote: Steve Guttag
. It doesn't list either DTS or Dolby as formats it decodes (the AP20 does up to DTS Master Audio and Dolby AC3, the QSC DPM100H also handles DTS Master Audio and AC3). These are serious considerations for me because they HAVE to be dealt with in most of my theatres.
I also would like to add that I've never heard nor installed the Trinnov. I am also happy to see a new player on the field, don't get me wrong. It's the 'dust' thing that I don't like
PS I thought the SPDIF of the Trinnov would do Dolby AC3?
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-26-2016, 01:05 PM:
Here is the link to their page. You show me where it mentions DTS or Dolby.
https://www.trinnov.com/products/digital-cinema/ovation/overview-ovation/?lang=en_us
I don't doubt it has some form of pro-logic decoder. Great, so I have to work with a 2-channel matrixed audio for non-DCP content? And they put so much emphasis on their alternative content...with several coax and toslink inputs
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 12-26-2016, 02:10 PM:
Steve and Marco, their home unit does Atmos/DTS-X and Auro. The software exists because of that product to do AC3 but nothing official has been announced, for the cinema box.
Fader can either be in db or "legacy" where reference is 7.0. I have only ever used the legacy setting.
No analog pro logic from the stereo L/R, it will send L/R to L/R or copy to surrounds as well. And it also has 8 channel db25 in as well as 2 XLR in.
Keep in mind, although I am sure we can name venues that use consumer decoding, this was primarily developed as a commercial cinema box. It's important to think about the fact that adding everything that everyone could possibly need comes as a cost. But because of the platform, software can be updated to add features.
As Steve mentioned the HDXSP is a nice box and adds tons of consumer options for an affordable price. You can also buy a cheap decoder box that breaks out formats, I think I have one that does Dolby and DTS to 5.1 that I got for $25. Never used it, but it exists.
When I have hooked Oppos to it, and I do often, I use a DB25 from the 8 channel analog input to 8x RCA and works great.
And finally, suggestions from dealers, customer, myself, forums like this, are all taken in and conversations about future development follow.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-26-2016, 02:28 PM:
Steve,
Ok, probably it was mentioned by Trinnov as a future development.
quote: Mike Babb
this was primarily developed as a commercial cinema box. It's important to think about the fact that adding everything that everyone could possibly need comes as a cost. But because of the platform, software can be updated to add features.
Mike,
Sure, but in the real world HDMI has now entered the cinema world and it is being used extensively. Yes, you can hook up am HDMI to SPDIF de-embedder (when the unit will decode AC3) and blah but the bottom line is that a 4-ports HDMI 2.0 switch with AC3, DTS and DTS-MA decoding directly embedded into the sound processor, brings an incredible value to those customer who need that.
And while I do love sound and I am always welcoming new products that aim to improve it, I cannot think - unfortunately - of a single customer who would be happy to give up the HDMI switch and DTS decoding for a more advanced EQ - which, as Steve pointed out, is only a player in the bigger team: the perfect EQ cannot overcome poor speakers, poor amplification, poor acoustics.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-26-2016, 03:40 PM:
"You haven't elaborated your thought on why the Trinnov is leaving the industry in the dust but the AP20 is not, that's it."
The AP-20 is one of those "does everything boxes" that is really unnecessary to use 90% of the time. Hence it has not made much inroad in the exhibition industry nor has it helped improve things very much in the B-Chain. The standard AP-20 has parametric EQ, not Dirac. It is also quite expensive and options jack the high price even higher. I really, really do like the menu on the AP-20 though! It is likely the best structured menu of any audio processor.
On the other hand the Trinnov is the do everything you need to do box... the Trinnov Acoustic Optimizer is standard...not an option like DIRAC, yet there are still quite a few options that can be installed into it if you need them. This is the processor that can fit the 90% of the needs out there, it is capable of making huge improvements in B chain results as it comes out of the box... no silly options needed. Hence, it IS the only option if you want to get ahead of the game. It is also priced in line with other processors already on the market... Hence, yes... they have left everyone behind because they are the only one that can actually make a difference in the B-Chain. And that is long over due. The D-2 technology goes back to the 1980's, time for something new and better.
Mark
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-26-2016, 04:21 PM:
So you HAVE put one in? If not, how do you know what it can/cannot do?
As for what people want...it doesn't even do a pro-logic decode for stereo sources...something 90% of my customers would want and would cost Trinnov all of what to have it in their software that they have in their over-the-top pricing of the consumer unit.
quote: Mike Babb
Keep in mind, although I am sure we can name venues that use consumer decoding, this was primarily developed as a commercial cinema box. It's important to think about the fact that adding everything that everyone could possibly need comes as a cost. But because of the platform, software can be updated to add features.
Stop right there. That right there is a very lame answer. It is as lame as any answer the Dolby people have given as to why the CP850 doesn't have an analog multi-channel input of, at least, 8-channels.
The Ovation doesn't boast about being an entry level processor. We have that in a JSD60 or even a CP750 and possibly the DCP100 or DPM100. Those are the processors that fill 95% of what cinemas want/need. The Ovation, AP20, CP850, DCP-200/300 are supposed to be offering something above and beyond. Even the QSC Q-SYS and DPM has their optimized settings for QSC speakers that should take 90% of the EQ needs out of proper rooms.
The Ovation is not being billed as an enco-box but a better box. How do you put in so many hardware spigots (multiple S/PDIF) and analog stereo...things that actually cost money and only provide Left/Right? That is just incompetence. Other than playing intermission music (something that rarely happens nowadays due to ads) NOTHING in a cinema should play out as just Left/Right. The speaker spread is just way too far apart.
While you may be able to find HDMI to coax dembedders out there for $25, that is a far cry from actual multi-channel decoding of the best audio the medium has to offer. After all, we are going to be running it through the wonder-box that should make everything better. Starting with a better source should be step 1. I sell a lot of Oppos. So I think that issue is mostly solved, for me but that isn't due to any greatness of Trinnov, it is in spite of it.
So really, all this box is offering me/my customers is the potential better tune-up? Forget about it for anything other than DCP other than a flow-through box. A $4K-$5K box? I'm not saying that there isn't value there. A better sounding theatre is always appreciated (though sometimes is a tough sell when better = more money without proof of more tickets). There are places where I AM interested in using something like that. I'd be a LOT more interested in it if it checked off more boxes in the feature department. Also, I'd like it if the manual was available for download. If it is, they have sufficiently hidden it.
Even more than before. I'd like to see a good review of it showing its ups and downs.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-26-2016, 05:21 PM:
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The standard AP-20 has parametric EQ, not Dirac.
The "L" version came up AFTER the full blown version. See that the other way round, Datasat are giving you a cheaper box, should you needed it. AFAIK the AP20 price tag is very close to the CP750's, that's what I am comparing it to.
Question for you: do you have a Dirac kit to tune the room using Dirac EQ?
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The D-2 technology goes back to the 1980's, time for something new and better.
Dirac is new
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
they have left everyone behind because they are the only one that can actually make a difference in the B-Chain
... but you haven't put one in?
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 12-27-2016, 06:38 AM:
Steve, lame answer or not, the box was developed for digital cinema. And I do appreciate what you are saying. Perhaps they could have added consumer analog decoding, or digital decoding, and from a technical standpoint that is still possible because of the platform. Personally I'd like to see it. But it would add cost probably, because of the licensing, something they are already doing in their other product line. I am feeding comments back to Paris from customers, dealers and this site. The CEO/owner and the other 3 owners of the company are hands on, I did several calibrations with the CEO last summer.
And as you have noted, Oppo or HDXSP get you there.
In time, there will be more people in this forum who have heard it and worked with it besides Pete, Larry and myself. That way more can be said about the process and results.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-27-2016, 07:08 AM:
We are not a location doing very much alternative content, yet I would never employ a new processor without HDMI options now. When we went digital four years ago, we started to use the AP20 HDMI options right away for all sorts of applications. Yes, if you are stuck with a processor lacking HDMI you can overcome some of it with external boxes, but it is not the same, and it makes dealing with alternative content (which typically means: consumer gear) even more complex and error prone.
When I heard about the Ovation initially, the first thing I did was to look for HDMI connectivity.
Another important thing to consider for the marketing is that existing integrators and exhibitors do not jump onto new equipment from unknown companies easily. You need to offer some extras to get their attention and make them take a risc and justify the effort of new learning.
- Carsten
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 12-27-2016, 07:48 AM:
Carsten, generally the offer is open to go anywhere and install a demo at no expense to the customer, other than time giving it a listen, and going through the calibration process if they are so inclined. I get the suspicion of new things and new companies in the commercial cinema market.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-27-2016, 11:10 AM:
Carsten.... The GDC SX-3000 includes an HDMI input link and it outputs the audio to what ever device you need to send it to, be it a regular cinema processor or outboard prosumer type of decoder. Your choice. And on top of that I only have three or four customers out of 300+ screens that even use HDMI. Those that do not have HDMI in with older servers use other means if they need to get in.
Marco, I will be installing the first one early 2017 with a number of others to follow through out the year, health permitting. I do have a back up tech to myself if I can not follow through on them.
Mark
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-27-2016, 11:36 AM:
If you are inputting HDMI into a server (anyone's) then you are already at PCM audio so something upstream had to turn it into that already decoded.
And yes, those that use other means (L/R analog or the various S/PDIF) would need some form of decoder to avoid a stupid L/R only output situation. Heck this box can't even handle 2.0 DCPs without just giving you Left/Right rather than a pro-logic/mono output (I've seen numerous "classic" titles that come in as 2.0 that should be mono.
But hey, if it works for you, go for it. I hope it sounds better but I'm already seeing "deal breakers" in it for me.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-27-2016, 01:17 PM:
Most of the use of HDMI around here is for screen ads from little tiny crappy USB driven servers... so you are correct in saying what you did. I think I only have three or four customers including Mike that play Blu-Rays for things like kids shows. And the fact remains that Blu-Ray is a very inferior exhibition format no matter how you deal with it and I doubt something better will come along for cinemas unless the studios can get their money grabber hands involved in it.
IMHO the best solution if a site plays Blu-rays constantly is to have a dual processor situation so you have the best of both worlds. The second processor would be a higher end prosumer unit capable of all those formats which the Blu-Ray end could feed and the same amps and speakers would be utilized.
Mark
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-27-2016, 01:57 PM:
As I've mentioned before, I DO have that solution in the Crestron HD-XSP.
http://www.crestron.com/products/model/HD-XSP
But there goes $1,500 to add into the cost. Had the unit even had just Dolby AC3/DTS on those S/PDIF inputs, it would alleviate a bunch. I mean, even the JSD-60 can do that and it cost on the order of the Crestron piece (though the Crestron handles both Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio as well as the rest, except Atmos). Now that the ECI-60 and DMA8-Plus are no more, (probably since most every processor except the Trinnov can handle pro-logic in some form and many/most can handle low-bandwidth multi-channel) it is more incumbent on the cinema processor to deal with such basic necessities. Again, better hope you don't have any art/retro theatres you put it in, or 2.0 movies will be in Left/Right.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-27-2016, 06:39 PM:
That's really not much cost if it decodes all commonly used Blu-Ray and DVD Formats. It is the correct way to do things IMHO because the consumer end of things seems to change way more frequently than cinema does. Being locked all in one box like the AP-20 does to you is very undesirable to me.
Mark
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-28-2016, 03:32 AM:
Mark
So your customers are happy to spend an extra $1500 on an external box that does what the AP20 can do out of the box because "consumer standards can change in the future"? Well, I'm happy to hear that, you shall introduce me to some of them one day.
I still don't know if you have a Dirac kit, BTW.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-28-2016, 01:26 PM:
For what it's worth, I haven't played a BluRay for an audience in at least 3 years. (Our Oppo Blu-Ray player bit the dust and won't work anyway.)
I use MakeMKV and DCP-o-Matic to create a full 5.1 DCP. But even that's not necessary much these days because the studios all have their kid-show stuff out on DCPs.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-30-2016, 04:45 PM:
Aside from BluRay/DVD - Notebook/Computer video + audio, SAT/Cable/DVB-T receiver, media players, Playstation/X-Box, AppleTV, Google Chromecast, you name it. Some of these have no separate audio outputs other than HDMI.
Yes, admitted, some locations/screens will never play anything else than DCPs.
- Carsten
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-30-2016, 04:56 PM:
...and for those location a CP750 will be perfectly fine (even though I believe the CP750 is more expensive than the AP20 anyway). I am not saying that anybody needs an HDMI input but that designing a new sound processor today with no HDMI is simply wrong. (as it is to design one with no multichannel input, don't get me wrong!)
Posted by Kristo Nalo (Member # 9748) on 01-03-2017, 07:02 AM:
It's also happened to me before, I figure out that the Fort of my HDMI is one of the problem of that.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-03-2017, 10:07 AM:
I don't know if I quite agree with you Marco on the requirement of an HDMI port on a new cinema processor design. I think it is a very good idea and if done right, then would be VERY welcomed!
I'm very nervous about my HDMI stuff. There are a bazillion ways to muck up HDMI and only one way it works (EDID and Keys are all good). Putting my faith in a Cinema Processor manufacturer for such things makes me nervous as it will never be their top priority.
You can also get burned by things like the CP850. Yeah, it has an HDMI input but it can't decode over 80% of the Blu-ray discs out there because they are all DTS encoded, not Dolby. That isn't the fault of the cinema operator and they shouldn't have to get involved on any format war. At home, everything is solved by having every A/V receiver decode everything. Such is not the case in Cinema unless you get a politically neutral company. Thus far, what I've seen is that DTS Master HD is getting supported but not Dolby True HD...it is probably the safer move given the state of Blu-rays.
Clearly, this is drifting a bit off topic other than to note that the Ovation does not support HDMI, Dolby or DTS.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 01-03-2017, 07:43 PM:
Probably beating a dead horse at this point but I'm here at a film festival with Ovations in two venues. We have Oppo blurays connected via RCA to DB25 in 5.1 (because the venues are). I also brought two DB25 to DB25 pinned for DMA8+ that the festival has if they are needed. And the primary format in all cases is DCP. So, I have what we need, and more, and as always, we all take into account the needs of the venue. Both are live stages and live rooms, and I very much appreciate calibration tool I have for time, phase and frequency.
Ovation hit the market in 2013. Perhaps if it hit the market in 2017 it might have been designed with HDMI. Altitude their home cinema processor needs and has HDMI. I have what I need here:)
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-04-2017, 06:01 AM:
Again, I don't think HDMI belongs in any cinema processor because consumer specs and systems change way too rapidly and in many cases a simple firmware update is not going to cut it. It's going to require a hardware change or upgrade. Let HDMI be a separate device. Some cinema equipment manufacturer could make some money there....
Mark
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-04-2017, 06:12 AM:
Cinema equipment manufacturers are NOT going to make money there. There isn't the volume.
And while it is true that the consumer market is an ever changing minefield of shiny new toys, having a degree of capability ensures that the cinema's bases are covered. Having a cinema processor that handles Dolby and DTS consumer audio, to a degree just removes that hurdle. Those that have to have the latest format capability, for whatever reason, will also find themselves doing more extravagant systems anyway. Nobody is saying that a cinema processor has to always be at the latest/greatest on consumer formats but it SHOULD in this digital video age where Blu-rays ARE being shown to the public have more than an embarrassing capability. That is, the Ovation cannot even handle DCP 2.0s (yet) let alone anything that is only 2-channel without merely putting that out of left and right.
I don't think HDMI would be a deal breaker for me, HDMI always makes me quite nervous on how to keep it safe and the more boxes you have on it, the greater the liability of a dreaded HDCP resync. But not having a 2:4 decoder in a cinema processor is a deal-breaker. That capability goes back decades. And not having the option to use one of the way-too-many S/PDIF inputs decode AC3 and DTS audio seems quite short sighted. Those are a no-brainer since even the layperson could grab any Blu-ray player and plug in a coax and be done. This isn't "premium" features. Even the JSD60D does that and it is under $2,000 PLUS it does everything else a basic DCinema processor should do.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-04-2017, 07:20 AM:
I don't see consumer specs/codecs changing too quickly. We are not talking about computer systems, but consumer electronics. You don't release a DVD with a new audio codec when 90% of the installed base of players will not support it. MPEG2 is around for quite a while, and will be much longer, same for dts or ac3, or their lossless/high end equivalents. The trouble was never product cycles, but Dolby being in the same market for Cinema Processors AND AC3, with dts being a competitor.
I know e.g. that the AP20 contains an OEM daughterboard for HDMI connectivity. That doughterboard manufacturer takes care of all the software and codec issues. That seems to be a nice balance between integrated HDMI and keeping up with latest developments. There is a plug-in compatible version of that board available with support for HDMI 2.0.
- Carsten
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-04-2017, 12:22 PM:
We are already well on our way to having to integrate in Ultra HD, it's gonna change, you can bet on it. I also have no issues sticking to using Oppo's that already have the 5.1 output.
Mark
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 01-04-2017, 02:49 PM:
nobody is asking 4K out of a sound processor. HDMI has been around for a while. It will take ages before it is replaced by something else and your HDMI-enabled device becomes unusable.
Like it or not, HDMI is heavily living in our cinemas. Like it or not, an HDMI input on cinema devices is important.
And like it or not, most of our customers will rather save some money on an 'integrated' sound processor with HDMI input than paying the premium of an oppo player - which still does not cover the simplicity of connecting a satellite unit, a game console, a media player etc.
HDMI is a firm standard in the industry, as AC3 and SPDIF are.
Mark,
do you have a Dirac kit?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-04-2017, 05:02 PM:
Nope, And no intention of buying one since I'll be installing Ovations and not the AP-20.
Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 01-04-2017, 07:19 PM:
Instead of running the HDMI through a sound processor to extract the audio, how about letting the media block do it? They already do, but, unfortunately, most do not do bit stream decoding. If they did, you could just use the AES3 connection from the media block to the sound processor.
Harold
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-04-2017, 07:55 PM:
Too many sissies on here that don't like IMB's. I actually prefer them even if just for the power savings over running dozens of full size and now unnecessary servers.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-05-2017, 12:44 AM:
Mark, your comments would actually hold a little bit of water if you had actually had some hands on experience with the Ovation instead of BLINDLY proclaiming to the world that this was suddenly the greatest thing ever.
This is starting to sound like another scenario where someone is taking money under the table to promote a product.
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-05-2017, 12:58 AM:
I don't think Mark has ever taken money to endorse anything. And there's not a lot of folks out there handling out cash for this purpose and doubt if Mike Babb would resort to this.
Mark always thinks his latest "discovery" is the greatest thing since sliced bread or pick your own analogy.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-05-2017, 03:42 AM:
Using the IMB for the audio iis awkward. Most systems have a less than good means to switch to the HDMI input of their IMB (e.g. You may have to run a "show" that does the switch) and then there is the lack of DTS/Dolby decoding, peole have had channel mapping issues beween their HDMI inputs and DCP and finally how to handle 2.0 channel content.
The Barco Alchemy has the best potential as an HDMI input IMB because the Alchemy becomes part of the projector. You can change its inputs by selecting a projector preset the same as changing to a DVI input (which the ICMP disables in favor of its Display Port and now HDMI 2 inputs).
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 01-05-2017, 04:06 AM:
quote: Brad Miller
Mark, your comments would actually hold a little bit of water if you had actually had some hands on experience with the Ovation instead of BLINDLY proclaiming to the world that this was suddenly the greatest thing ever.
And we finally found out that Mark doesn't have hands on experience on Dirac EQ either - but the Trinnov with its superior EQ is leaving the AP20 in the dust regardless.
Harold, Steve
Indeed HDMI has been poorly handled by IMB's but I guess it would be better than nothing. My vision is that the system should have some basic HDMI/DD/DTS capabilities.
If you then install a D-Cinema system where HDMI is heavily used, then an external, more flexible and more reliable gateway is recommended and worth the price.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 01-05-2017, 06:26 AM:
Thanks Sam.
The strategy is to install one at Trinnov's expense for someone in a room they know so they can hear it and learn about the calibration process. I am paid to do that install as well as I can. Other than that I've been trying to answer questions because this topic started with someone asking about hands on experience. I had my hands on 3 yesterday:)
Posted by Bob Ezra (Member # 841) on 01-05-2017, 12:59 PM:
![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
Mike Babb and Trinnov Ovatiion too...
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-05-2017, 03:28 PM:
quote: Brad Miller
Mark, your comments would actually hold a little bit of water if you had actually had some hands on experience with the Ovation instead of BLINDLY proclaiming to the world that this was suddenly the greatest thing ever.
How is in the next couple of weeks sound Brad?
And of course Sam is right. No paid endorsement by me for anyone. And my installs speak for themselves as far as reliability goes.
quote: Steve Guttag
Using the IMB for the audio iis awkward.
Am still trying to comprehend this one. If anything the current ethernet connection is no more awkward and perhaps less so than having to have some strange DB connector and or adapters that hook up to the rear of a server.
Soon full size servers will be a thing of the past and I can say I told you so!
Mark
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-06-2017, 02:16 AM:
It doesn't matter at this point Mark. You already proclaimed this was the best processor ever without even working with one...so ANYTHING you say at this point means absolutely zero as a serious review because you are already "sold".
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-06-2017, 07:27 AM:
See Mark, you didn't read the whole thing and got confused by just the first few words.
Reread it and maybe it will make more sense. You, somehow convolved how IMB HDMI ports are implemented in terms of how one even selects them (have to run a fake show with a switch to HDMI in them) into the audio wiring of RJ45 versus DB25. Never mind that numerous people have expressed issues with audio routing on HDMI ports of IMBs have been problematic (including on the SX3000)
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-06-2017, 08:45 AM:
We can switch arbitrarily between DCP/IMB and HDMI on our Alchemy and Sony. No need for a playlist. On the Sony, we can even have a DCP/SPL playing while the actual image source is alternative content. No, the Sony will not pass-through HDMI audio through it's AES outputs.
- Carsten
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-06-2017, 05:25 PM:
quote: Steve Guttag
Reread it and maybe it will make more sense.
Actually, I am not confused in the least Steve... Your exact words were
"Using the IMB for the audio iis awkward." So how iis it awkward? You hook a cable to the audio out ethernet jack(s) just as you would hook that custom made connector you just soaked your customer for to the DB connector. I prefer the ethernet cabling because its cleaner, however BOTH work just fine. I don't see any mention in my post of switching to the HDMI input on a 3000. But since you mention it, using the HDMI on a 3000 iis no more awkward than using any other type of input and it can be fully automated. Its pretty much as Carsten says, except in this case HDMI becomes a scheduled show on the time line. Iis THAT so difficult? My customers don't seem to think so. And if your projector has a legacy input module you can then have three HDMI inputs. As far as audio routing difficulties, I have had none. I have had a few incidents of HI audio coming up on left or right channel, GDC iis aware of that and a reboot of the server fixes it. Other than that, the few situations I have used audio routing in have worked fine. Did Dolbly ever even add audio routing?
Mark
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 01-06-2017, 06:45 PM:
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
But since you mention it, using the HDMI on a 3000 iis no more awkward than using any other type of input and it can be fully automated. Its pretty much as Carsten says, except in this case HDMI becomes a scheduled show on the time line. Iis THAT so difficult?
not difficult. Just awkward.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-07-2017, 10:18 AM:
How so Marcel? You actually consider scheduling shows an awkward procedure? I can tell you that of the 334 screens I associate myself with only 5 of them run shows manually, and two of those are drive ins. The other three are single screens. It actually works out very well for my customers. Almost all of them have it automated which makes it's use more or less invisible.
Mark
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 01-31-2017, 10:19 AM:
Just a quick note to say that the Ovation now has optional Dolby Digital decoding on the SPDIF inputs. It involves a software upgrade for a fee to cover the licensing. I know a lot of people in this topic were looking for this option.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-31-2017, 11:13 AM:
Good to hear! How about DTS and Pro-Logic? Also Pro-Logic on DCP 2.0 movies?
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 01-31-2017, 05:09 PM:
Steve, so far no. DD came from customer and potential customer feedback and these comments have been and will continue to be relayed.
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 06-10-2017, 08:11 PM:
Hello all,
Just a quick note to say if anyone is coming to Cine Europe, I will be at the Trinnov booth for the show. I'll also be at the ICTA events on Sunday and Monday. Look me up if you want to chat.
Mike
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 11-14-2017, 01:46 PM:
Hello all,
I was at Trinnov Paris today testing DTS optical, bnc and rca decoding, as well as 2 channel analog upmixing. There will also be a tweak added to allow for upmixing 2 channel DCPs.
Hoping to have a release version in my stocking for Christmas!
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 03-26-2018, 07:22 AM:
Hello all,
The new version of Ovation software is out in the field. V4 adds the possibility of a DTS license for optical, BNC and RCA S/PDIF consumer. It will also do analog and AES upmixing from 2 channel DCPs and 2 channel analog sources. The Dolby license remains an option for customers who need that for Fathom, bluray and other sources with AC3.
Thanks to everyone here for suggestions, I do bring it up in product development meetings.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-29-2018, 11:21 AM:
All the more reason to be installing the Trinnov!!
Mark
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