Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Christie 2208 or Barco 10S?

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Posted by Gregory Brunelle (Member # 9297) on 02-07-2016, 02:23 PM:

I joined this forum so I could ask about the two projectors that our community owned theater is deciding between. After having 2 different pitches, we have narrowed it down to the Barco 10s and the Christie 2208. The Christie has the longer warranty, but are there other things we should be concerned with? Screen is 27x11, zero gain. It may be replaced, but might not be anytime soon. Small town of 1200 and it's owned as a non-profit.
If people have positive or negative things to say about these two units, please say them.The packages offered by the two vendors are comparable in price and equipment, so really it comes down to projector quality. We will be having 3 shows a week, with a few specials here and there, figure about 400 hours a year.
Thank you.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-07-2016, 02:30 PM:

What type of server?

Posted by Gregory Brunelle (Member # 9297) on 02-07-2016, 02:39 PM:

The Christie has a GDC SX3000-4tb
The Barco has the same with 2tb. I might be mistaken on the Barco, but I can't find the quote right this instant. The 2tb is the one the same vendor specified for the other projectors they offered.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-07-2016, 02:51 PM:

The Barco SHOULD come wth Barcos Alchemy server. Maybe you can check the offers for more details.

I guess both machines have no real disadvantages, as long as you stay away from Doremi IMS1000 or Christie IMB-S2.

The GDC is a bit more flexible with it's storage options.

- Carsten

Posted by Magnus Eriksson (Member # 6085) on 02-07-2016, 03:59 PM:

The Barco has no video inputs for non DCI sources. You have to rely on whatever inputs your IMB/IMS has.
/M.E.

Posted by Gregory Brunelle (Member # 9297) on 02-07-2016, 04:27 PM:

The Barco bid lists the GDC-SX3000 2k ims, at $7,556.00 Maybe that is being substituted for cost sake. I don't know.
Thanks Magnus, that's the sort of stuff I'm looking for.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-07-2016, 05:12 PM:

Won't the Christie's two DVI inputs become defunct anyway once an IMS is fitted?

That said, if there are no other big differences, I'd always prefer to have more than one alternative signal input.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-07-2016, 08:56 PM:

On the 10s, the Alchemy is not standard over here...just an option. So the GDC offer is perfectly reasonable. The 2208 is a newer projector, that said, it is base don the Solaria 1+ but without the dreaded IMB S2.

My experience with the that sized Christie is that it is awful on light. That is, you tend to have to get special lamps to high your light and those special lamps often run into heat-related problems...even with external exhaust If you can run it with 1600 or fewer watts, the heat problems seem to subside.

The negatives I'm hearing on the 10s are dirt accumulation inside that seems to affect its brightness/contrast.

I'm not a big fan of the S2K machines (anybody's). Too many compromises in name of cost (lower contrast, less efficient). Whenever possible, I'd recommend looking at the Barco DP2K-12C...a little more money yes, but a better machine based on .98" DMDs.

If you are happy with the GDC server choice, then you can have either of the companies supply you with either 2TB or 4TB (recommended) systems...so you are comparing same-same. The SX-3000 can use the PSD (lower cost but uses laptop drives in either a 3 or 4 drive configuration) or the Enterprise/Enterprise Plus storage using full-size 3.5" drives with just about as much storage as you can imagine with 2TB being at the bottom. Just makes sure you are comparing same-same.

Posted by Ian Freer (Member # 1940) on 02-07-2016, 10:22 PM:

I would be a little concerned neither are REALLY bright enough for a 27ft Matte screen. I think they are both rated for about 9000 lumens, which should be OK when the lamps are new, but allowing for light drop-off over time, you'll possibly be on the edge of 'DCI' brightness requirements... If that bothers you at all...

As Steve has said, the larger 0.98" based projectors are a better bet with the larger chip being more efficient with the same amount of light from the lamp. The Barco DP-2k12C or the Christie CP2215 might fit this a bit better, but I don't have enough experience with either to offer any specific advice.

If you do opt for a gain screen in the near future then you'll get a bit more light which will bring the smaller projectors back into consideration (but at the expense of overall image quality due to both the gain screen and the smaller DLP chips...)

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-07-2016, 11:03 PM:

Agree totally with Ian regarding too little light for this size screen.

I would go with the 2215 for best light of the small projectors IMHO. Takes a number of reasonably priced bulbs and light to spare. It's a mature design that is quite reliable.

I'm not impressed with any of the .69 chip projectors unless enough money cannot be raised for anything else. Some dealers will sell the .69 projectors so that they have a fat profit margin at the expense of the customers interest. Keep looking is my advice. I don't know how many quotes you have but ask for a specific quote for the Barco or Christie. .98 chip projectors. The lenses are better, the contrast is far better.

Posted by Gregory Brunelle (Member # 9297) on 02-08-2016, 06:51 AM:

Well thanks to all of you! This helps quite a bit. We will look into the .98 chip machines and see what the price difference is.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 02-08-2016, 11:03 AM:

quote: Sam Chavez
I would go with the 2215 for best light of the small projectors IMHO. Takes a number of reasonably priced bulbs and light to spare. It's a mature design that is quite reliable.

I'm not impressed with any of the .69 chip projectors unless enough money cannot be raised for anything else. Some dealers will sell the .69 projectors so that they have a fat profit margin at the expense of the customers interest. Keep looking is my advice. I don't know how many quotes you have but ask for a specific quote for the Barco or Christie. .98 chip projectors. The lenses are better, the contrast is far better.

Sam, as usual, hit it spot-on.

I cannot overemphasize what I have put in bold and italic type above.

As a community theatre, chances are very good that the vast majority of your shows are going to be "one-offs" where there is only one chance to pull it off without a hitch. (Unlike a standard cinema where you can simply offer re-admission to a later show.)

I know of several private screening rooms where Solaria 1's were installed and have been non-stop trouble, where by contrast the several CP2210/DSS200 installs I was involved with had few or no issues at all (other than one client shutting down the projector and server for a few months and "bricking" the Enigma board).

If you get a lesser machine and have any show failures at all it will hurt your image (no pun intended). People will tend to shy away from your location for future events. (Some film festival venues I know of found this out the hard way.)

Search the forums for some (bad) examples of HOW the newer, cheaper equipment REALLY performs in the real world. (Solaria One and GDC especially)

The 2210 (now 2215) is a real workhorse and a light cannon. About the brightest (if not THE brightest) of the class. Super reliable and robust.

As for the server, IF you can still get one get the Dolby DSS200..hands down the most reliable and user-friendly of the servers. They can even be had used, which IMHO for someone not grinding out 4-5 shows a day, 7 days a week would be a smart investment. Hard drives, fans and power supplies are readily obtainable and easy to change out.

In any event, a .98 imager would be the smallest size I'd recommend for a 27 foot screen.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-09-2016, 09:14 PM:

I do not agree that the DSS-200 has any magical user-friendliness (or other) advantage over other makes/models. You like what you're used to, in my opinion.
All servers have their quirks... pre-Doremi Dolby ones are not exempt.
Most of my work is with Doremi, I don't have any problems with them and don't get complaints about them being unfriendly.
We also see GDC, Dolby DSS, Barco, Christie, and some of the others that are mostly rebranded from more familiar names. I generally hate them at first because of the oddness, once I get them figured out they're all OK.
An integrated server is more compact - no chassis to mount, no cables to run - but can cause pain if you mount the projector in a hard-to-access location. You still need to run cables to it for alternative content signals and for DCP ingest sources, and sometimes you have to see the panel LEDs for troubleshooting.
The Barco ICMP has 3 alternative content inputs: it disables (uses them for the DP inputs) the DVI inputs on a projector that has them, though. The ICMP replaces both the ICP and the SDI input card on a Barco projector.
The Doremi IMS or IMB (IMB needs an external server) has one HDMI input and DVI inputs will still work - if your projector has them (none on Barco "S"series).
Using DVI for alternative content means selecting it is easier: with server or IMB HDMI/DP inputs the selection is in the server GUI, with projector DVI you just select a projector preset... and don't even need the server to be functional. But sound is less fun with DVI, with HDMI or DP digital audio is included and will be on your normal DCP audio output connection from the ICMP/IMS/IMB.
Both the Christie and Doremi (plus rebranded ones) integrated servers have had more-or-less serious problems and many dealers recommend against them. The current Doremi IMS-2000 seems to have had its bugs worked out and we haven't had problems recently with those we handle.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-10-2016, 06:28 AM:

Dave, you are going to be in a VERY small club on not recognizing the Dolby DSS GUI as inherently easier to work with. You are certainly entitled to your opinions and experiences.

For me, yes, I can learn any UI that I've come across. It isn't a matter of just what I know/am familiar with. I find that in very short order, I'm familiar with most anything.

When teaching UIs to end users where they may be anywhere from "kids" to non-computer types. It isn't even a close call...the Dolby DSS UI is may orders of magnitude faster/easier to teach have the end user be proficient at use. Furthermore, most of our sites are mini-plexes (We cater to independents and special venue/art houses)...the DSS servers, if 3 or less, integrate up almost instantly such that moving content about, scheduling...etc. is all pretty much built in with no new programs/features to teach/learn.

I don't claim it is perfect nor that other servers don't have some clever and beneficial ideas.

There are things that tick me off with them all. On the Doremi...WHY on the control screen do you have NO IDEA of what show is going to play when you hit play (or if in schedule mode will play). What you are looking at is what has most recently played? I understand that it was a beginner's UI mistake but it is one that is YET to be corrected. GDC, at least, provided a "load show to play" button (just an example of a UI failure to me...the IMS web UI fails at its color scheme too).

Hardware reliability...the DSS line is by far the most reliable...again, not perfect but the number of show failures/interruptions on the DSS line are FAR lower for us than any other brand. To that end, the DSS line is the only server we deal with that one can play a show and ingest at full speed (or transfer) without any show glitches. In fact, it is almost too good, I have one site that constantly want to show the movie, ingest and transfer content at the same time. The other brands choke once a show starts. The DSS does it without show problems.

I don't like IMS and most IMB systems for our sites because one gets into a "proper shut down sequence" or start up. With traditional HDSDI systems, when you are done with the projector, shut it off...no need to involve the server with it. We don't run projector 24/7 because they would fill up with dirt...most of our servers DO run 24/7.

Note GDC still has their SX-2001A for traditional HDSDI as well as the SX-2000AR for a traditional server with IMB. Dolby/Doremi still have the DCP2000 and 2K4 for traditional HDSDI and the Showvault/IMB for server/IMB.

I agree, from an installation standpoint, slipping an IMS type system GREATLY simplifies the installation. But running a pair of HDSDI cables for a 2K system isn't exactly hard either.

I much prefer to use the DVI ports on the projector than rely on the IMB...which can make automating alternative content more tricky and less intuitive (you are always having to do two things..switch the projector AND the server).

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 02-10-2016, 06:50 AM:

I'm with Steve. I farrrrrr preferred the Dolby DSS we had to the Doremi we have now.

With the DSS, it was all very user friendly. Visible playlist, with very visible, contrasting, drag-n-drop segments and cues, play/pause/stop all right there with instant response, very simple layout...

Doremi is so needlessly complicated. There's a hundred different pages, you have to constantly double check your location in the system before doing anything, Title Mapping(wtf?!), playback/playlists make NO sense, macros and commands are slow to execute, nothing flows. It's been nearly 4 years and I'm still not comfortable with it. Really not a fan.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-10-2016, 03:04 PM:

Buck, LOL! You should see the IMS if you think their servers are a cluster.

Mark

Posted by Christopher Lani (Member # 7952) on 04-05-2016, 12:08 AM:

Have to agree with the 2215. Run ours 2 years now without a single problem. Plenty of light, the contrast is great. Just a workhorse of a projector.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-05-2016, 08:30 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
On the Doremi...WHY on the control screen do you have NO IDEA of what show is going to play when you hit play (or if in schedule mode will play)

Yup, highly annoying indeed. To see what will play next you have to go to the edit tab and scroll through the playlist and look at the contents. It's just a dumb design that has never been fixed. Even if Doremi/Dolby wanted to keep the GUI "backwards compatible" so people who are used to it the way it is now, simply adding a "load content" button doesn't in any way mean that someone couldn't switch to the editor tab, load the next playlist there like they are used to and then switch back to the playback tab. I've never asked them to remove that option, just add one "load playlist" button to make it more user-intuitive.

Like Steve, I couldn't care less what just DID play. I want to know what will play NEXT. All they need to do is make the server behave in this manner:

If not in scheduled mode, reload the last show and display that playlist name at the top.

If IN scheduled mode, eject the last show and preload the next scheduled show to play. Obviously this is too simple and logical. [Razz]

Another thing the Doremi GUI needs is a "load playlist" button ON the playback screen. What user is going to naturally think "if I leave the playback screen and go to the editor screen, maybe that's where I will load the next show to play"? Answer: nobody. It's something that must be shown to people.

And on the other topic, all of those IMS-type solutions with the hard drives on the IMB can still go take a hike. Really, really stupid design! Same for these servers that use an external NAS.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-05-2016, 10:43 AM:

I agree that the hard drives being on the IMS is a very bad design. The GDC with the external PDP-3000 hard drive box is definitely the way to go these days. It's also the only hardware raid server being manufactured now. The nice thing is you can move the boxes between servers and just reboot and you have moved the content. They have also been uber reliable. Integrated servers are the way this whole industry is heading. If Dolby could straighten out the Doremi IMS they'd actually have something there. If they could put the Dolby GUI on it and locate the drives externally then they really have a nifty unit. In day to day theater operations there is no need for a dozen servers each drawing 300 watts plus. The IMS's only draw about 20 watts.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-06-2016, 08:16 AM:

So now that GDC is finally doing a hardware raid, suddenly you see the value and importance of it?

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 04-06-2016, 08:37 AM:

the IMS1000 has a Hardware RAID, not sure about the 2000.

Posted by Mattias Mattsson (Member # 4308) on 04-06-2016, 03:36 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
On the Doremi...WHY on the control screen do you have NO IDEA of what show is going to play when you hit play (or if in schedule mode will play)

There is a work-around for this annoying mis-feature:

If you press the pause button the show currently in the editor queues up on the playback tab.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-07-2016, 05:35 AM:

The IMS2000 uses a software RAID. The Doremi peeps think that the hardware RAID of the IMS1000 was their misstep. Perhaps it was their choice of hardware or their implementation. The DSS hardware RAID solution was the best. That said, the DSS220 has retained much of the DSS200's capabilities of ingest while playing at pretty much full speed.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 04-07-2016, 06:54 AM:

I see, in the end they had to replace the HW chip with another one. I have a feeling that with today's CPU's a software RAID can be as good as a HW one. Or at least very close - if the software is properly implemented.

Posted by Mattias Mattsson (Member # 4308) on 04-07-2016, 07:32 AM:

There are indeed som interesting improvements going on with regards to the Linux sw RAID implementation: https://lwn.net/Articles/665299/

Posted by Brian Mendelssohn (Member # 9108) on 04-12-2016, 10:29 PM:

I have a 17' wide screen... fixed with showing in flat, scope, and 1:33 formats. the throw is around 70'

I'm curious for this opinions on Christie CP-2208 vs CP-2215 as far as brightness and contrast

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 04-13-2016, 04:26 AM:

Stay away from any design around the Solaria 1s. A local non profit uses one of these on a 22 ft wide scope screen and its dreadfully underlit with poor contrast and bad lenses.

Ps. Please delete double post from my phone. Thank you

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 04-13-2016, 04:27 AM:

Stay away from any design around the Solaria 1s. A local non profit uses one of these on a 22 ft wide scope screen and its dreadfully underlit with poor contrast and bad lenses. Pony up for a Barco DP-2K or a brighter .98 chip Christie.