quote: Marlon Martins

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isn't that the main "extra" compared to 0,69" ones (1.850:1 - 10S, 8s)?

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quote: Steve Kraus

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Wouldn't it make good sense to judge picture quality on equipment comparable to the best but still ordinary cinema gear?

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I guess it would, but there's so little money in good sense, so just let's not talk about it, ok?
 

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Posted by Alan Gordon (Member # 9434) on 04-20-2016, 04:20 PM:
 
Thanks for all the info guys! Huge help.

Yeah the logic is always do the technical work on the closest to reference as possible, whether it's audio mixing or color grading. That way when cinemas are a little off spec you've got the middle ground and it should still be very watchable.

That said, I also think that if a projector can hit DCI color primaries (Which it seems pretty much all of the cinema projectors do) it should still be able to accurately represent the image seen in theaters.

I've also heard to stay away from Sony's from grading since they're not DLP. Why is that if they can still hit the right colors?
 

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Posted by Ian Freer (Member # 1940) on 04-20-2016, 04:54 PM:
 

quote: Alan Gordon

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I've also heard to stay away from Sony's from grading since they're not DLP. Why is that if they can still hit the right colors?

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quote: Dave Macaulay

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Using a Sony SXRD projector - not sure. They do have some issues with the imager deteriorating - with color shift - in cinema use.

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This suggests a Sony would probably be fine for a while, but eventually they are prone to the colours drifting unacceptably for grading (and even too much for cinema use)...
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 04-20-2016, 05:44 PM:
 
The 4K-P machine, which as said is a 23B, outputs about 6000 lumen versus 23000 of a 23B. This is to improve contrast and colour gamut and uniformity. The machine sells for about twice as much the regular one, it's not just a HC lens.

Whether that is worth the double price is another story. But post productions are required to achieve 2500:1 contrast, higher gamut and higher uniformity. If you must have it I believe a Barco P is the only choice.

If you're happy with 2000-ish contrast and regular cinema tolerance, then any machine (besides 0.69) will do.

Another thing is that if you install a normal Barco and then your uniformity is 0.012 between left and right, Barco will likely say it's within tolerance and won't do anything. If you install a P machine and you end up with 0.012 delta, Barco will replace the light engine or whatever is needed to achieve the tighter tolerance.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-21-2016, 06:51 AM:
 
Hitting the primaries is just but one step in the color grading process. How is it when the level varies (look at the colors on a step chart, look at the greys on a step chart...etc.

A popular misconception for some with NEC NC900C is that one can remove the notch filter, reshoot colors and you are good-to-go...NO! Primaries are primaries...then end points but do not depict how the system will do between. Without the notch filter, it will no longer be as uniform.

This is the same, wrong, line of thinking that has people putting high-gain screens and setting the center to 14fL and thinking they have made a bright picture with less light. The spec is not JUST 14fL in the center but there is also a uniformity component to the spec too and if your screen gain is above 1.3 and flat, it will never achieve it and your image will be DARKER than spec.

Again, it is my understanding that the entire light path is improved on the "P" series to achieve its higher contrast. I suppose one could look on the parts lists to see if there are unique parts on the P projector versus the standard "B" projectors.

The Software (Post Production) works on ANY Barco based DCinema projector, not just the "P"...in fact, Post Production goes all of the way back to the DP30, 40 and 50 days. It's chief addition is a more detailed PCF section where one can make their own TCGD files, PCF files to hit desired color corrections for particular projects. It also blows out the potential presets up to 99 and their is an extra column of test pattern presets. Also, it was first to have a "dark display" color scheme so your laptop wasn't as bright in the theatre.
 

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Posted by Alan Gordon (Member # 9434) on 04-21-2016, 03:58 PM:
 
Hrm all very interesting. They do charge an arm an a leg for all that extra calibration. I guess I'll have to decide if it's worth it.

In either case, I'm thinking of going with the Alchemy board to have an onboard server for checking and screening DCPs. Would I be able to use its Display Port input for the actual color grading if I converted from my Blackmagic's HDMI out? Or would I be stuck until Barco decides to finally enable the HDMI inputs?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-21-2016, 04:25 PM:
 
HDMI input is active already and has been for some time...I believe it is fully functional now too (supports everything they promised it would on 2D and 3D.

That should be a viable way of handing a server in the unit plus it has SDI inputs if you have an such sources.

Note, I just checked, the Light Processor (light engine) part numbers are different between the B and P of the same version projector.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-21-2016, 04:30 PM:
 
I was about to write that you don't need a real DCI projector for a post production application. You need a machine that supports P3 colors and proper calibration. However, if you are going for DCI content wrapping, it is advisable to have a DCI compliant server, and the Alchemy certainly is not a bad option (beefy yet low cost).

All ports are usable now, though I guess for a post production application, the HD-SDI ports will be first choice.

The Barco DP2K-6E with the Alchemy/ICMP is a very low cost option as well. It is also very silent, if that plays a role.

I think there are two different aspects that you may follow with such a purchase - you may want to get the best in 4k, contrast and color stability for grading in a grading/mastering suite.
Or you may buy the 'lowest denominator' in order to be sure what you grade to is actually displayed at a typical cinema. Some people suggest basic JBL speakers for the same reason for the final audio mastering, as that is what most cinemas have installed.

I know some mastering studios have both high-end monitors for production, and one or two typical consumer systems for verification.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Alan Gordon (Member # 9434) on 04-21-2016, 05:27 PM:
 
What variety are the SDI ports on the Alchemy board? I had assumed 3G SDI, which wouldn't get you 4k input (which is why the P projector comes with the quad 3G SDI...)

My Blackmagic output card has both 12G SDI (which can easily be converted to quad 3G SDI) As well as HDMI 2.0

Interesting note about the P and B having different light engines. I've been talking with a dealer about modifications that can be done to the 19B to bring the contrast a bit closer to that of the P. And I'm thinking that might be the best middle ground here as much as the gear nut in me would like to splurge on the P.
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-22-2016, 06:39 AM:
 
The Alchemy ICMP dual SDI inputs are 3G, 2.970 Gb/s. Each will carry a 2k 4:4:4 image stream. It also supports the legacy 2D single or 3D dual SDI 4:2:2 and dual span 4:4:4 signals.
Ask your Barco dealer for document "Barco_InstallationManual_R5905722_06__ICMP-InstallationUpgrade-instructions-for-DC-projectors"
This has decent detail on what the inputs are expected to do. The different connections (SDI, DP, HDMI) each has it's own list of capabilities.
The ICMP is still somewhat new... firmware has been evolving. For example I don't think the SDI outputs do anything yet, and I haven't managed to use audio over DisplayPort.
The B and C projectors have the same backplane connectors for the same circuit boards: without seeing one "in the flesh" the P machine looks to be the same. If so you can install a TI ICP and any input card (quad SDI, Enigma dual SDI, IMB, IMS) or install an Alchemy where the ICP and input card would go.
All cinema projectors and cinema servers are designed for - and almost exclusively used for - cinema projection. Their feature sheets might suggest they will do exactly what you want, yet non-cinema features can be buggy or missing. Engineering teams have to prioritize issues that impact cinema customers... there is no shortage of such issues.
With any expensive equipment where you want to step outside of the primary intended use... talk to people who are using one for something similar to what you hope to do.
Don't jump in with the alligators because a salesman says the water's safe.
 

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Posted by Daniel Morez (Member # 5787) on 05-26-2016, 07:48 PM:
 
Below are a couple examples of what Ive found differentiates a Barco Post Production projector vs standard cinema projectors. As mentioned its much more than just improved contrast. Hand selected and matched optical components etc, etc. Its always vary obvious to me what this results in when working on a P unit.

CIE xy color uniformity relative to center screen shown below. The upper measure grid is from a Barco P. The lower is a similar series non P model tuned up as best as possible.


Below are multiple Luminance uniformity examples of non P cinema projectors vs a P unit.


Another less often discussed factor is the Extended Gamut capability that comes with the P models. While Cinema projectors are supposed to all be able to reproduce the entire DCI-P3 color gamut, the reality is the good majority of standard gamut projectors will miss small portions of the gamut towards maximum saturations. With an available Gamut that goes beyond P3 the theory is you then just need to limit the gamut down to exactly cover P3. Just like we commonly do with Rec709 which is a smaller gamut that resides within the larger P3 gamut. This is actually the primary reason why the P Lumens rating is so much lower than a standard 23B. Light path contrast enhancements have a part but are not as significant compared to the spectral modifications needed to extend the gamut.


The above uniformity comparisons follow a custom 35 point (5x7) measurement of the entire 2K image area (DCI-P3 white field, includes perimeter edges of active area). Each point measured with spectroradiometer placed in the "hero" point of the room to factor reflection incidence. Done in the same DI suite successively, ie when measured the projectors were placed in the same position and alignment relative to the screen. Room equipped with a non-perf SnoMatte 100 unity gain white screen.

Just to state, as far as uniformity goes, I'm not saying only a P can achieve these or similar levels of uniformity. A lot can be done with methodical tuning and swapping/upgrading optical components. The thing with the P is that its just waaaaay better out of the box compared to any other projector I have had the chance to evaluate.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-27-2016, 03:18 AM:
 
Thanks, that's quite interesting.

Another point is that if your P machine exceeds the Post Production tolerances and cannot be adjusted on site, Barco will take responsibility and replace the required parts to bring it back to what it should be. So if you measure +0.003x on a corner, you can claim a warranty repair.

It all depends whether you need that accuracy or not but the P machine is indeed very accurate.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-27-2016, 11:31 AM:
 
Bravo! Very good post!
 

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Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 11-23-2016, 11:26 PM:
 
Regarding the expanded color space of the Barco 4k-P it exceeds P3 closer to rec2020. It uses a special Notch filter supplied by Kodak. The light path with filter does take a hit on light output.

Barco P gamut:
native red: x = 0.7; y = 0.3
native green: x = 0.2; y = 0.76
native blue: x = 0.145; y = 0.04

Rec2020
(R) 0.708, 0.292
(G) 0.170, 0.797
(B) 0.131, 0.046
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-24-2016, 08:52 AM:
 
very interesting, I thought the reduced light output was all used up to increase the contrast ratio.
Very interesting post indeed. Thanks!
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-24-2016, 09:13 AM:
 
Has anyone tried the Schneider series of D-Cinema lenses instead of the chinese built zooms? I am just curious if there is anything very positive to them...

Mark
 

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Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 11-24-2016, 09:47 AM:
 

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Has anyone tried the Schneider series of D-Cinema lenses instead of the chinese built zooms? I am just curious if there is anything very positive to them...

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