This is topic Help needed with DSS200 and Subtitles. in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Julian Antos (Member # 5497) on 12-23-2016, 10:15 AM:
 
We've been given a DCP and were told by the provider that we would probably have to have the subtitles generated from our server rather than the projector. On our DoReMi server, this is a very simple matter of clicking a box, but I'm not seeing any similar thing on our DSS200, and of course this is showing in the auditorium with the Dolby Server. Is there any easy way to do this or are we SOL?

Any help appreciated!
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-23-2016, 10:59 AM:
 
Your provider has the facts all wrong.

Subtitles are basically an XML file which is then overlayed on the picture. This is usually done by the ICP board in the projector, the server simply passes it the necessary text.

As the ICP has been quite unreliable in the past in term of subtitling, Doremi introduced their own subtitle engine, so subtitles are not passed to the ICP anymore but are overlayed on the picture by the server itself.

The two methods should indeed provide the same results. There is no way a DCP is set to use the server OR the projector. On a Doremi you can choose whether to use the projector or the server engine but the source of the subtitles is the same.

To be honest with the latest software versions subtitles should work pretty well on the ICP too - the Doremi simply happens to be a little more tolerant *if the subtitles are poorly made*.

If the subtitles are PNG - this happens with foreign languages - both Doremi and ICP are capable of rendering them.

If you have a Dolby Server, you are 'stuck' with the ICP option but there is no scenario the ICP cannot cope with. Make sure your Dolby and your ICP are up to date.

If subs do not show up on a Dolby, it is very likely the subtitles have poorly mastered.

Now the question is: did you try the CPL on your Dolby, does it work?
 

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Posted by Julian Antos (Member # 5497) on 12-23-2016, 01:12 PM:
 
That all makes sense. It plays fine on the DoReMi with that box checked and this is a more or less home-brew DCP so it doesn't surprise me that the subs won't play. The DCP itself DOES play fine, just no subs. Also, the red SubTitle icon at the bottom of the NEC software does not turn red when this DCP is playing. Sounds like I just have some crappy subs...
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-23-2016, 01:39 PM:
 
If you have a problem, it is likely in the projector (ICP), not the DSS200 (assuming that the software in the DSS200 is up to date - the post 4.7 versions include some subtitle fixes).

Do you have a series 1 or 2 projector? If 1, ensure that the ICP (TI board) is updated to version 15.1 of the firmware. If it isn't, Interop subtitles will probably work, but SMPTE ones very likely won't display. If it's series 2 and linked to the server either by a cat862/Enigma board or cat745 IMB, then again, assuming that all the software involved is up to date, you shouldn't have a problem.

One of our houses has a DSS200/cat745/NEC 3240S, and I've never had subtitles refuse to display at all in the almost three years I've worked with that system. Another, however, has a DSS200/cat862/NEC 800, and I did have one SMPTE DCP from Europe in which the subtitles wouldn't play at a festival in October (we had to play the BD backup). I took that DCP to the series 2 house to test afterwards (it was unencrypted), and the subtitles played OK there.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-23-2016, 02:37 PM:
 
Another thing to check is if you load JUST The feature (nothing else in the SPL or just run it as a clip) and see if the subtitles work then.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-23-2016, 03:17 PM:
 
Sorry - responded to Julian's earlier message after skimming in haste.

The "subtitle" logo in DCC being gray indicates that the projector's ICP is not rendering subtitles on the image. This could be either because it's not receiving subtitle data from the server (or IMB), or because it thinks that the data is invalid - in other words, it doesn't know what to do with it.

If you want to find out which, look at the error log in DCC (I think you need to be in service mode to get at it, but can't remember off the top of my head, am not close by either of our NEC projectors to experiment, and can't connect to them remotely at present because the power breakers are off). It'll say something like "Subtitle error..." followed by the details. If there's no mention of any subtitle errors at all, the chances are that it's getting no subtitle data from the server. If you do see those errors (and I did with that Greek DCP I had the problem with), then the subtitle data is written such that the ICP can't cope with it. Whichever is the case, there's not much you can do at your end, apart from updating software if needs be.
 

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Posted by Leslie Hartmier (Member # 7053) on 12-23-2016, 04:00 PM:
 
Another thing to try as well, would be to try running it directly off the CRU drive. We did have some that wouldn't work on the server, but run straight off the CRU, subtitles had a 100% success rate. One of the locations was a DSS/DSP with an NEC, so it might be worth the attempt.

Killed any chance to run it in an SPL though.

Obviously, the kind of thing you would do if nothing else worked, since no other content, no cues, just movie.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-23-2016, 07:40 PM:
 
Would a key be needed for Subtitles?
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-23-2016, 08:39 PM:
 
If there is an unsubtitled OV and a subtitled VF on the drive, then those are two separate CPLs, even if they do refer to the same video and audio content; and if they're encrypted, then a separate KDM is needed for each one. I kinda prefer it when they are encrypted, because it minimizes the chance of someone who is careless, working under time pressure etc., accidentally ingesting and playing the wrong version. If the only KDM you're given is for the English subtitled VF you're supposed to play, then there is no danger of accidentally ingesting and playing one of 15 VFs with different subtitle languages, or the OV with none at all, that might be on the drive (quite common with European shows).

However, that's not what's happening in Julian's case, because his subtitles are OK when the DCP is played through the Doremi. If it were an encrypted DCP and he didn't have a KDM for the right version, his DSS200 wouldn't even let him select it to play.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-24-2016, 05:14 AM:
 
Definitely make sure the Dolby works with other subtitled content before giving up.

But every time I looked into subtitles issues on a Dolby, the answer was always "wrong mastering".
For example, the DSS won't play subs if the font file is not there (even though they may have 'fixed' that). I had an instance where the subs would only work at random and found that as the mastering facility 'forgot' to put the font file in the CPL, the Dolby would look in the cache folder: if subtitles using the same font file had left the font file in the cache folder during a previous playback, then subtitles would work.
But if you rebooted the server - and the cache was lost - then the DSS would be unable to read subtitles and would not play any subs.

In the end: not a DSS/configuration problem, just bad mastering. Definitely nothing to do with "server subtitles"
 

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Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 01-04-2017, 12:22 AM:
 
Have you checked the DCP, how the actual subtitles look? Seems like you have .mxf packed subs, which are usually the culprit in these situations. Surprised noone has mentioned that before.

I don't know if there is a fast and free way to unwrap those, so you might just have more luck by asking the lab for .srt subtitles, and make the VF version yourself (if the content is unencrypted ofcourse).

'Bad xml subs' is something i have not really seen alot, and even if, it either would not ingest properly and thus not play on a doremi, or its an easy fix. But as said, you probably don't have xml subs. Let us know.
 

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Posted by Carl Hetherington (Member # 7107) on 01-04-2017, 03:18 PM:
 

quote: Bajsic Bojan

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Have you checked the DCP, how the actual subtitles look? Seems like you have .mxf packed subs, which are usually the culprit in these situations. Surprised noone has mentioned that before.

I don't know if there is a fast and free way to unwrap those

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