Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: ProRes 422

This is topic ProRes 422 in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Bradley J Sime (Member # 9423) on 02-22-2017, 10:37 PM:

What are everyone's thoughts on ProRess 422 as a presentation format? I find it brutally unstable for anything feature length, yet I receive it constantly, despite specifically requesting that we don't receive material in this format. Everything I've read about it seems to say that's primarily used for post, and not intended for presentation.

Thoughts? Anyone know of any good players for it?

Posted by Patrick Nuse (Member # 9438) on 02-23-2017, 12:28 AM:

Yes, It is a post production format intended to be a format for interchanging footage between editors. I have tried to run them for a film festival that I volunteer for. even at moderate bit rates, it is very unpredictable. I imagine people try to submit the format, because that is what their editor gave them. Maybe they meant well handing over a high quality copy, but not necessarily knowing that it does not playback well. I usually just trans-code them to a high bit-rate H.264 for use in our festival. Getting a good quality file from submitters is a black art.
File submission guidelines This link is what I send to submitters to try to get a decent file. I tried to keep it as simple as possible.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-23-2017, 07:34 AM:

What are the actual problems you encounter when playing back full length ProRes, and which player applications/appliances do you use?

- Carsten

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 02-23-2017, 10:14 AM:

At most of the more professional festivals or corporate events I've worked at
(such as the big APPLE & ORACLE conventions and trade shows) I use either DT
Labs "Playback Pro" or "Playback Pro +" from DT Labs. ($400 & $600 respectively,
but worth every penny) OR a dedicated hardware player, the "PIX270i" from Video
Devices (appx $6,000 - Great unit but overkill for some shows.)

Both of these systems will pretty much play back "anything", but PlaybackPro
users guide recommends sticking with ProRes 422, and whenever I've worked
with the Pix270i, it's always been loaded with ProRes 422 files too.

I like Playback Pro a lot. In fact, this weekend I've got an all day event that
I'll be running off of two PBP equipped MAC Pro's, and I've already converted
the pile of Blu-Rays & assorted other format files to PR-422, which will make
running the show a lot easier, and "smoother" then trying to cue & switch
between various clips on assorted disks and computer files.

More Info:
PlaybackPro
PIX270i

Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 02-23-2017, 11:09 AM:

VLC also handles ProRes pretty well

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-23-2017, 11:17 AM:

Agreed with Jim that if you absolutely have to play these files straight to the screen, Playback Pro is an excellent solution. We have one programming partner who insists on bringing his shows on a Mac laptop, and I have to admit that, despite my instinctive loathing for doing movie presentations this way, Playback Pro works well, in particular that it's almost bombproof as far as OSD and getting other unwanted crap on the screen is concerned.

However, whenever I receive these files for any other show, I will always DCP-ize them first unless there simply isn't time.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-23-2017, 11:21 AM:

So, how does everyone determine if the files use the broadcast-legal (16-235) or full-range (0-255) luminance scale? How does one even ask a question like this of the person supplying the file? Many so-called "film"-makers don't even know their own movie's aspect ratio, much less answers to questions like this.

The other issue with the file formats is sound formats. Most of these are Lt/Rt mixes, but has anyone had a Pro Res file with a discrete 5.1 or 7.1 mix? Is there any way to play that properly, other than using something with an SDI output and then disembedding the sound from the SDI feed?

My preferred hardware player for Pro Res is the AJA Ki-Pro, but converting them to DCP also works well.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 02-23-2017, 01:55 PM:

Scott-
My experience is that most of the Pro-Res audio files have been LT-RT,
as you point out in your post.

But I know I've worked on one or two shows that had 5.1 discrete tracks.
I wasn't using my computer for that show, but if I recall, we had a MacPro
desktop machine with a multi-channel analog audio output card, and there
was some sort of QuickTime plug-in involved in the process.

I think somewhere on that Playback Pro website, it gives exact requirements.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-23-2017, 01:59 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
The other issue with the file formats is sound formats. Most of these are Lt/Rt mixes, but has anyone had a Pro Res file with a discrete 5.1 or 7.1 mix? Is there any way to play that properly, other than using something with an SDI output and then disembedding the sound from the SDI feed?

I don't know if Playback Pro will let you send 5.1 and 7.1 from a ProRes file out through the Mac's HDMI embedded audio - all the stuff I've played this way has been mono or L/R.

I've always handled 5.1 and 7.1 ProRes files by making DCPs of them. You need to be careful, though - sometimes the channel assignments are weird. For example, there is one French distributor that sends us ProRes trailers that have a stereo French mix on channels 1 and 2, French 5.1 on 3 through 8 (but not per the ISDCF channel assignments - it goes L, C, R, LS, RS, LFE), and the English dub 5.1 on 9 through 14. So to make the DCP, I need to remap the appropriate channels to 1 through 6 on the DCP, and add the .srt file they supply to put the subtitles on.

Posted by Bradley J Sime (Member # 9423) on 02-23-2017, 05:18 PM:

Yeah, we have Playback Pro, and it IS most definitely awesome. I just find that with large, feature length ProRes files, frames are dropped, or I'm able to spot digital artifacts in one test, and then they are gone when I go back to double check. It just seems entirely unreliable as a presentation format.

I have a film submissions guideline, but filmmakers are filmmakers, and those guidelines are followed only about 75% of the time.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses and everything.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-23-2017, 06:01 PM:

Why do you question the format, instead of your playback setup or specific files?

-Carsten

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-25-2017, 02:36 PM:

All of you having problems playing back ProRes 422 must have super-shitty hardware. ProRes 422 is the gimpy version of ProRes. ProRes 422HQ is much better and ProRess 4444 (full color space) is even better than that. All ProRes flavors playback perfectly steady from an attached USB hard drive on my computer. Never heard about Playback Pro. I just use Quicktime 7 (not Quicktime X). Are you using a Windows machine? Windows sucks for video so that may be the problem you are having with ProRes.

If you want a hardware player just get an Atomos Ninja 2 and an SSD. It outputs HDMI and will play your ProRes files back. It can also record ProRes. I'll have to test mine to make sure it doesn't do any unwanted OSD stuff.

As far as broadcast legal goes, all ProRes flavors have more dynamic range than broadcast legal. It's up to the editor to confine levels within that space or not. Just assume it's not broadcast legal. Why is broadcast legal even a thing in this age of digital television anyway?