Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Christie don't recognize Ext2 formated disks

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Posted by Jordi Aguila (Member # 9875) on 03-16-2017, 06:23 AM:

Hi,

I have got a feedback from a cinema with Christie projector with integrated imb that don't recognize the disks formated in Ext2, it recognizes Ext3 and NTFS. The projectionist says that in the lasts Christie firmwares the Ext2 is not supported by the system and all the disks must be in Ext3.

It is true? And Ext3 could generate any issue in another server (Dolby, XDC, GDC, Sony...?

Thank you.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-16-2017, 07:53 AM:

I think there must be something else with this disc. Ext2 and ext3 have so much in common that even old Linux systems with no ext3 support can read ext3. Ext3 is ext2 with journaling.

Ext2 is still the international DCP distribution format, any server manufacturer dropping support for it would be brain damaged.

Aside from that, no server has issues with ext3. Note this is not the same with ext4! Absolutely stay away from ext4 for DCP distribution.

http://isdcf.com/papers/ISDCF-Doc3-Disk-Drive-Recs-2015-07-21-Clean.pdf

- Carsten

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 03-16-2017, 10:20 AM:

quote: Jordi Aguila
The projectionist says that in the lasts Christie firmwares the
Ext2 is not supported by the system

I find this very unlikely, especially since here in USA just about
every major film release is sent out on Ext2 formatted drives, which
is usually considered the most "universal format" for DCP's

If it were true that Christie's new software did not read Ext2 formats,
they would be creating huge problems for most of their customers.

> Find out from the projectionist the exact version number of the new
firmware he claims won't accept Ext 2. I'd sure like to know.

But chances are pretty high, as Carsten says, that there is some problem
with the Ext2 formatting on whatever he's trying to ingest from.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-16-2017, 12:08 PM:

This is probably an "advanced format" drive. Can you ask the server to look at partition 2 (/dev/sda2 or similar)? You may find the content there.

Do you have a Linux computer (or any PC-type computer with a bootable DVD or USB Linux distribution)? If so, can you mount the disk on that?

Posted by Jordi Aguila (Member # 9875) on 06-02-2017, 07:13 AM:

Ok 2nd cinema with the same problem. They have one Barco server, our Ext2 formated disck was ingested without problem. In the other room with Christie server (with firmware installed 2weeks ago) they can not be able to reed the disk and the technical support of the cinema says that Christie now don't accept Ext2 disks they must be in Ext3.

My question at that point is:

If I decide to do the distributions in Ext3 formated disks, they will work without problems in all servers and all firmwares?

I don't want to assume the risk to do the distributions in Ext3 and have more problems that now in Ext2 because other servers don't accept Ext3 format disks.

Thank you.

Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 06-02-2017, 10:56 AM:

Have you tried calling Christie for confirmation on this? Their support number in Spain is +34 91 633 9990. I wouldn't believe anything unless it came directly from the horses mouth on this. As mentioned before, a package version number would be helpful.

I suspect that Carsten is correct. Unless the EXT2 partition is created exactly as specified in the document that he linked to, the server may or may not read it. I've seen this a number of times with Dolby DSS100s as well. We've received EXT2 drives form independent film makers who didn't use the correct drive formatting and they would read in some servers but not our DSS100s.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-02-2017, 12:35 PM:

Two things it could be.

1 - The partition table is GPT, not MBR (MS-DOS).

2 - There is an EFI partition, a crapware partition (often found on some USB sticks and drives sold in Office Depot type places), or something other than the content partition, on the start of the drive.

In my experience, a DSS200 with a recent software version can tolerate a GPT partition table as long as there isn't a non-content partition on the start of the drive, but will not see the content partition if both problems are present on the drive. The Doremi DCP2000 won't read drives with a GPT partition table at all. One of the few positive things I have to say about the Barco Alchemy is that it does seem to be capable of scanning a drive and finding DCP content wherever it is and however the drive is configured, with the sole exception of exFAT partitions, which it can't read.

I don't have any experience working with Christie servers or ICMPs, so can't give you any specific pointers - sorry.

If I were faced with this problem, I'd hook it to a PC running Ubuntu with hfsprogs and GPartEd added to it (if you don't have one, download an Ubuntu live ISO, burn it to a disc or stick, and boot from it). GPartEd will show you how the drive is configured. Whatever the issue is, you should then be able to copy the DCP files from it to a drive that your server can read, or FTP them straight into the DCP server if the computer you're using is on the same LAN as the server.

IMHO, a Linux PC with GPartEd and the plugins needed to read HFS+ and exFAT added, running on the same LAN as the DCP server, is an essential tool for any projection booth that plays anything other than routine, Deluxe Technicolor DCPs (i.e. ones made by professional post houses that know what the ISDCF rules are, and how to obey them). The bottom line is that if a drive is not 100% compliant, any given DCP server or ICMP may or may not read it, and you need a plan B if it won't.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-02-2017, 02:31 PM:

Formatting Linux ext2/3 drives is something of a black art.
Technicolor and Deluxe are certainly good at formatting drives that will be read by most/all servers. This is not true of many independent producers. This is a constant aggravation with film festivals or when playing independent product.
There is no (zero!!) possibility that any D-Cinema server will not read ext2 drives. All distribution drives for all US features are sent on ext2 drives.

Posted by Jordi Aguila (Member # 9875) on 06-06-2017, 05:58 AM:

I'm waiting to recive a call from the Christie engineer in Spain to talk about the issue that I have had with Ext2 and last firmware versions of Christie.

We're not an independent lab, we made distributions to all Spain and our DCPs are made following the DCI spects. (MBR / Linux 0x83 / Ext2 / Unique partition...)

By other hand, our discs are delivered to other cinemas that have Christie servers and are loaded and ingested without problems.

I have had feedback from two cinema installation companyies that confirms to me that in the lasts Christie firmwares Ext2 discks are not be able to be loaded by the server.

When I'll have the confirmation from Christie I'll reply it in this post and from what firmware version hapens.

Thank you to all.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-06-2017, 06:48 AM:

With those cinemas that have these problems, make extra sure wether these DCPs are actually ingested locally ON the Christie IMS ingest port, not through any other means.

Don't trust cinema staff blindly on this. Some are very knowledgeable, some not at all.

And no, ext3 is no problem on any other server. Then again, ext2 must not be a problem on any server just as well... Maybe Christie introduced a weird quirk in recent firmware. However then, I can hardly believe these sites have only trouble with your discs.

Are these CRU drives, or general USB discs?

- Carsten

Posted by Jordi Aguila (Member # 9875) on 06-06-2017, 08:01 AM:

In this case is a no CRU drive, is a Stardom with USB 3.0 and SATA conexion. But our discs where ingested in other cinemas with Christie servers without problems. This disc, for example, is from a distribution that we had made and all the discs are identically because we generate one disc master and then we clone the disc in a clone station with MD5 verification. And in other cinemas with Christie servers worked well.

I'm waiting to talk with Christie engineer.

Thank you.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-06-2017, 10:35 AM:

The Christie IMS has both local USB and eSATA ingest ports. Did they try both with the same disc (REALLY???)? Maybe the problem is not with the formatting, but the interface. Yet it could still work with the Barco.

What's weird is this (from the Christie IMB-S2 manual):
'Ingest drives can contain Microsoft Windows (FAT, FAT-32, NTFS) or Linux (ext3, ext4) file systems.'

But that manual is three years old, and I am sure this was never meant to actually exclude ext2, it is more like a typo... It would be completely braindamaged to actively support ext4 on ingest drives, but exclude ext2, back then, and now...

- Carsten

Posted by Jordi Aguila (Member # 9875) on 06-07-2017, 09:37 AM:

Reply from Christie:

Ingest drives can contain Microsoft Windows (FAT, FAT-32, NTFS) or
Linux (ext3, ext4) file systems.

The DCI specification available here: http://www.dcimovies.com/specification/ to my knowledge doesn’t actually specify a format for the ingest drive only a definition of the speed categorization and the format of the DCP folders and files on the drive.
The format of the drive itself is down to server preference, I can understand your confusion as EXT 2 was standard on the older Doremi and Dolby servers however this is not industry wide and not all servers accept it.
From my personal experience more and more drives are either EXT3/4 or NTFS, hopefully moving forward knowing what our server accepts this will not be a problem for you.

What do you think about??!!

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-07-2017, 11:05 AM:

Correct that the DCI specification does not address disk formats. There is an ISDCF document about this, though. The web link is here

http://isdcf.com/papers/ISDCF-Doc3-Disk-Drive-Recs-2015-07-21-Clean.pdf

It is giving me a 404 not found error right now.

The short version is that it specifies MBR partition table and ext2 or ext3 filesystem with an inode size of 128 bytes.

I still don't see why anything would accept ext3, but not ext2. In the context of a read-only mount, the two are esseentially identical, and ext3 provides no advantages. ext4 is a significantly different filesystem, however.

Most, if not all, servers will read NTFS, but it is not an open standard and not a common format for DCPs. Some newer servers will read HFS+, but that is rare and I would discourage anyone from distributing a DCP on an HFS+ filesystem. I have yet to find anything that will read exFAT natively.

Did we ever rule out "advanced format"/GPT as the original problem here?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-07-2017, 05:12 PM:

Jordi - actually I think Christie (or whoever acted under that name) was BS'ing you...

NO ONE is advancing ingest drive formats towards ext4 or NTFS, and leaving out ext2. This is plain rubbish.

quote: Jordi Aguila
The format of the drive itself is down to server preference

It is not down to server preference. And as someone who seems to make a living from shipping DCP drives to cinemas, you should know that.

ISDCF is issuing the current drive format specs - and a Christie engineer is attending ISDCF meetings regularly.

That hard drive format recommendation is currently under revision and thus not available on the ISDCF site - the current latest draft is circulating on the ISDCF mailing list. It is identical to the previous versions in most parts, but especially as far as ext2/ext3 is concerned:

---
2. The partition on the storage device shall be formatted as EXT3 or EXT2, with the inode size set to 128 bytes.
...
4. Distribution service providers should recognize that the current deployed base of player and library systems in the field may already be several years old, and are expected to have an extended lifetime relative to typical computer system installations. Thus new or upgraded mastering and duplication systems should be thoroughly vetted for backward compatibility prior to deployment.
---

Now go and kick Christie's ass on that BS answer they just copy/pasted from the IMB-S2 manual. I suggest you go back and find someone at Christie who knows what he is talking about.

- Carsten

Posted by Jordi Aguila (Member # 9875) on 06-08-2017, 02:55 AM:

Hi Carsten,

Yes I know that it is not down to server preference. All is very strange (about the answer from Christie).

Answering about the partition, yes I've made a MBR 0x83 Linux unique partition in Ext2 I'm following the ISDCF recomendation, I'm delivering since a lot of years ago using the same method and never I've got this kind of issue. The unique issue that I could have is that the disk was broken by a bad manipulation outside our lab.

I'll post if I have any new information.

Thank you to all

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-08-2017, 07:36 AM:

I have put this issue to the ISDCF mailing list. Let's see.
At least so far it served to bring the current revision back:

http://isdcf.com/papers/ISDCF-Doc3-Disk-Drive-Recs-2015-07-21-Clean.pdf

As far as I know, ext2 and ext3 are so identical, that even old linux systems prior to ext3 introduction will be able to read and write to ext3 discs - they will just not make use of the journaling feature. As such, an ext3 capable system would need to exclude ext2 on a formal level - that is, detect ext2, but won't use it not because it can't, but because someone tells to ignore it. That would be very stupid given the current distribution system. If there is actually something in Christies current IMB-S2 software that prevents ext2 usage, it must be a bug of some sort. Until then, you are safe using ext3 for all servers.

- Carsten

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 06-08-2017, 11:31 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Most, if not all, servers will read NTFS, but it is not an open
standard and not a common format for DCPs.

I'm not going to disagree with your basic comment, but as a person
who does a wholebuncha festival & rental screenings, it's not all that
uncommon for me to get NTFS format drives from amateur & semi-pro
film-makers on a regular basis.

In fact, if I'm working an event that insists on only DCP content, and
a film-maker is going to 'burn his own' DCP, I actually ASK for NTFS.

I'll tellya why:
NTFS can easily be done natively on almost any Windows machine
or on MAC with some freely available 3rd party software, and most
importantly, it's almost impossible to muck up & format NTFS "wrong".

As for ext-2 or ext 3, Dave Macauley said it best:

quote: Dave Macaulay
Formatting Linux ext2/3 drives is something of a black art.

I've gotten my share of 'bad' ext2 & 3 drives from people who
I had assumed or who assured me that knew what they were doing.
But I've had ZERO issues in 2 years of asking for NTFS if I'm 'in charge'
at a particular festival at a venue that I know will accept NTFS formatting.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-08-2017, 09:21 PM:

As a general rule, if the DCP supplier is unable to provide Linux-formatted media, I would ask for the following, in this order of preference:

NTFS
HFS+
FAT32 (only an option if the DCP is smaller than 4GB)
exFAT

This is because, as Jim points out, most servers can read NTFS. Many can also read HFS+, but cannot if the drive has a GUID partition table, which a completely blank drive formatted in a Mac will do (though on some Macs at least, a USB flash stick or portable drive that was sold as "for PC" and then reformatted in a Mac will keep its MBR partition table and simply have the NTFS content partition replaced with an HFS+ one). I have encountered some Dolby servers that will read exFAT and some that won't - probably depends on the software version. But in my experience, exFAT is the volume format least likely to work with a DCP server.

The scenario outlined by Jim is why I believe that a Linux PC with plugins that enable it to read NTFS, HFS+ and exFAT is an essential accessory for every booth that handles festival and other DCP content that comes from sources other than the major studios.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 06-09-2017, 10:34 AM:

Sit down. . . this is going to take awhile:

I am really puzzled by Christie's response, especially this quote:

quote:
EXT 2 was standard on the older Doremi and Dolby servers however
this is not industry wide and not all servers accept it. From my personal
experience more and more drives are either EXT3/4 or NTFS,

- - which makes me wonder if the author has ever been anywhere near an
actual projection booth recently.

1) I checked with a contact at Deluxe and in his reply he said:
"EXT2 is the agreed upon recommendation for drive format between
the studios, distributors, vendors, and manufacturers"

2) I checked with two DCP duplicators here in San Francisco that know
me and both pretty much said that their default policy is that EVERYTHING
they ship out is on drives formatted ext-2, unless a client instructs otherwise.

3) Just for fun, yesterday at one in one of the screening rooms I work at,
I pulled 15 assorted professionally duplicated DCP drives off the shelf at
random containing both major studio & independent theatrical releases.
Most were from Deluxe. The oldest one was 6 months old, and at least
three drives contained movies that won't be released till mid summer.

I connected each to a Linux enabled computer to check their parameters.

>Every friggin' one of them was formatted Ext-2<
(Confirming somewhat what Deluxe & other DCP duplicators told me)

4) In my line of work, I get to travel around a bit to various venues, both
here in San Francisco, and in other states. Last year, I traveled with a set
of "test" USB thumbdrives I had made. I had them formatted as NTFS, Ext2,
Ext 3, & Ext 4. Each one contained content at several different frame rates,
and except for the formatting they were identical.

During the course of the year, I tried them out on at least 16 assorted
servers, at about a dozen different venues at various locations.

ALL of them played NTFS, ext2 & ext3, except for ONE location that had
an 'older' DSS 100 with early software which couldn't handle NTFS or
any frame rate other than 24fps. NONE of them could recognize ext4.

Disclaimers:
> All of these tests were ingested directly into servers, and not through
a TMS/LMS, etc
> Systems were GDC, Dolby, Christie, & Doremi, with various software vintages
> I did not encounter any SONY, QUBE, or 'other' brands.

I still say that given the fact that it seems like over 90% of commercial
theatrical content, at least here in the US, is distributed on ext2 drives, and
that duplicators and distributors seem to have no intention of changing that
anytime soon, it would be nothing short of ludicrous for Christie to come up
with a software version that wouldn't recognize that format.

There's GOT to be something else going on with your systems that aren't
recognizing ext2 formatted drives, no matter what Christie tells you.

- - and that's my $.02 cents worth of opinion.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-09-2017, 10:49 AM:

I haven't had any experience with EXT4.
EXT3 is just EXT2 with "journaling" added. That is useful for a system drive: writes are recorded before execution, and marked completed once done. That is very useful for avoiding crashes when multiple users are revising a file, and if the system crashes mid-write. For a distribution drive, with data written once by the distributor and then read into a server, EXT3 has no advantage over EXT2 - it just adds unused complexity and journaling overhead.
Regardless, someone at Christie is blowing smoke. I know people at Deluxe Distributing, they haven't heard of any plan to change from their current program: all distribution drives are EXT2.

Note that this includes their USB sticks with trailers etc. These are pretty nice for "alternate" use, but when Deluxe formats them they create a volume just large enough for the trailer or whatever. Reformatting them to FAT32 (or any Windows format) will only give you the size of that volume, not the full capacity shown on the stick label. You have to jump through a few hoops to get it back.

Posted by Leslie Hartmier (Member # 7053) on 06-17-2017, 06:46 PM:

Just as a bit of information, we (Gordon and I) installed a Solaria One (quiet...just be quiet) with a firmware version of 4.7.0 (1), and the IMB-S2 was updated to 1.8.1 software, 4.6.2 firmware in a location to remove a problematic Barco DP100, and having done so before we hooked it into the TMS network, we ingested from three EXT2 CRU drives without a moment of trouble.

I would say that it is unlikely (ridiculous, really - especially considering that EXT3 itself will read EXT2) that Christie would have found some way to prevent EXT2 drives from being read, and further, it would make no sense to waste time on doing that at all.

Leslie

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-17-2017, 07:21 PM:

right so.

It could still be a bug, but, I guess that bug would need quite some work to take effect, so even a bug is unlikely.

- Carsten