Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Series 3 Projectors

This is topic Series 3 Projectors in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 03-20-2017, 12:12 PM:

I was looking up some specs on the Christie Digital website this afternoon and discovered a new model listed, the 2308, which they are referring to as Series 3. Does anyone have any information on this new up and coming series of projectors and how they will differ from Series 2?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-20-2017, 12:36 PM:

Everyone is working up their Series 3 stuff, there will be some on display at Cinemacon. You ought to steal Gord's ticket and attend it this year.

Mark

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 03-20-2017, 03:09 PM:

Barco has been calling their ICMP equipped "Alchemy" projectors "Series 3" for a while now. I do not know what the difference is between S2 and S3...?

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-20-2017, 05:09 PM:

Marketing? There is a new cinema controller on the latest Barco projectors and they called it Series 3. The Alchemy indeed integrates the ICP but the engine is still the same.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 03-20-2017, 08:14 PM:

The new CCB design is because some chips on the original are NLA, according to rumors I've heard. Not for any big improvement.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-21-2017, 07:03 AM:

Considering that the new CCB is a drop-in replacement, no it isn't the big change to "series 3." Their ICMP could be considered a dramatic change because it busts the 500Mb/s limit and expands the resolution/frame rate capabilities.

I'm not sure there really needs to be a distinction now between the "series." With Series 0/Mark VII stuff to series 1, you had the obvious 1.2K going to 2K changes as well as going from 4:2:2 single link video to 4:4:4 dual-link. Again, moving from series 1 to series 2, you had a huge shift in how security and processing was to be handled with a standardized slot for where a mediablock could be used and a strong push to make it an IMB type mediablock. The processing power of the series 2 also went up as 24fps 3D was designed in from the onset (remember how most series 1 projectors, designed in 2003/2004 couldn't do full-frame 3D due to processing bottlenecks). Series 2 projectors are the first "DCI Compliant" projectors with Series 1 projectors having bandaid type DCI fixes (GORE board).

So, unless the rules change, I just don't see series 3 making such a distinction. I do see the individual projector companies evolving their projectors. One could say the newer RGB laser projectors are such an evolution.

Posted by Arnold Chase (Member # 7988) on 03-21-2017, 10:26 AM:

With regard to the Christie line, it appears that in addition to a new user interface, they are finally getting serious about allowing alternative content (UHD, etc.) to be played more easily.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-22-2017, 07:31 AM:

A while ago I read an interview with the chief of TI's cinema products division in Cinema Technology Magazine.

Basically, what he said was that TI's DLP division doesn't want to be an electronics/board OEM supplier, as hey practically did with series 1 and series 2 projectors. They supplied both the design AND hardware/software of important boards, like Enigma, ICP, Cinelink, Cinecanvas, etc., so the projector manufacturers would have both a quick start, and could ensure a solid and manufacturer independent consistent operation of digital cinema systems, including the major security aspects. But they don't want to play that OEM role forever. Starting with S2K, they wanted/allowed the projector manufacturers to take more control (which also allowed to bring down the cost).

Like Barco did with their ICMP/Alchemy, which got rid of the TI ICP.

So I guess, Series 3, if there will be a common name for it at all, will designate projectors where only DLPs and probably formatter electronics come from TI.
I guess there will be no further development of TIs ICP. The enigma is done with anyway (good).

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2017, 09:58 AM:

The Enigma is still available. I agree with your assessment that TI would like to go back to just being a chip manufacturer and let the design of the systems be with the projector manufacturers.

Now when will Barco or another company release a projector like their "Loki" model (for residential) for use in Cinemas. It looks like it could be the type of design for the future. Native 2.37 (Close enough) and 5K.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-22-2017, 11:02 AM:

Sure, Enigmas are still available. But they won't make an enigma.v2 or endorse it's future use or something. It was needed for HD-SDI, and that is now legacy technology.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2017, 11:28 AM:

We still put in HDSDI based systems [Razz]

GDC still has their SX2001 server that supports it. For 2K systems, there isn't any disadvantage. When was the last time you had a full enigma?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-22-2017, 11:56 AM:

When was the last time you had a failed enigma due to tamper switch aging ;-)

I fully understand your personal reasons for HD-SDI based systems. My personal stability experience concerning IMB/IMS is with Sony and the Alchemy, and they are as solid connection-wise as HD-SDI (if not more).

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-22-2017, 12:30 PM:

quote:
When was the last time you had a failed enigma due to tamper switch aging ;-)

Steve,
You cannot possibly be praising the Enigma?? [Smile]

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 03-22-2017, 01:41 PM:

Sonys new 4K RGB laser dual engine single lens projector to be shown at CinemaCon is said by Sony to be designed with small cinema and consumer (residential) installations in mind. The prototype is gargantuan from what I hear.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2017, 04:16 PM:

I'm NOT an Enigma fan. I AM an SDI fan. I'm not, particularly an IMB/IMS fan. Yeah, I've come to grips with them and put them in, like everyone else, but they are not my first pick for a 2K system.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-22-2017, 05:31 PM:

quote: Jarod Reddig
Sonys new 4K RGB laser dual engine single lens projector to be shown at CinemaCon is said by Sony to be designed with small cinema and consumer (residential) installations in mind. The prototype is gargantuan from what I hear.

No, no, that's fake news. Because as we all know from the tech buzz , Sony has abandoned the cinema industry after the R320. [Wink]

http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr?newsID=4690

As for series 3, I guess the most important aspect they will have in common is that they have less in common than series 1 or series 2, with less TI OEM systems in it, every manufacturer can take a more individual route. That also means more work/training for installers, I suppose.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-22-2017, 05:36 PM:

that's just the official statement, I'm curious to know how that thing works!

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 03-22-2017, 07:29 PM:

LOL

[Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2017, 07:33 PM:

Well you know with SONY = Soon Only Not Yet

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 03-22-2017, 07:41 PM:

Good one Steve.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-23-2017, 08:45 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
there isn't any disadvantage.

Actually, there is a fair difference in 3-D color which is a good reason to go with an IMB. Pretty much the equivalent difference that used to exist between mpeg and jpeg. That extra two bits of color is well worth having on screen instead of lost in an piece of legacy equipment.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-23-2017, 09:54 PM:

Care to wager how many people out of 100 will see the difference between 4:4:4 versus 4:2:2? Care to wager how many will see the difference once 3D is added in to the mix to waste all of the image?

Where I put IMBs in initially was indeed in 3D venues. The Hobbit series was coming out in those days and to hedge one's bets on HFR working out, it was the safer choice.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-24-2017, 04:23 AM:

I second Steve here - the difference is very little, particularly through a set of glasses/lenses at 4fL (when we are in luck)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-24-2017, 02:00 PM:

Probably less difference on Dolbly 3-D, more difference on polarized since it is in essence a neutral filter and does not affect color to any great degree. It's still a matter of..."you can do it the right way or not". Plus with future changes in exhibition those old dual link systems will never keep up. To still be installing new dual link servers today borders on the absurd. Yes, I know... I also hate powering on the entire projector to ingest. Hopefully they address that in series 3 some how. But the projector still has to be on in order to ingest the keys as those are stored on the IMB. A recent change in the GDC TMS software also reflects that, where previously you'd ingest keys and if the rooms were not powered up and connected to TMS the keys would go off to no where....

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-24-2017, 02:41 PM:

You can call me what you want, I'll still install SDI systems, where appropriate. My next tier is a more traditional server/IMB and the very last pick is the fully integrated IMS/ICMP type system. That said, the ICMP has a better chance, for me since it is fully integrated with the projector it resides. You can select any input via the normal preset buttons, just like "normal" projectors.

I'd wager, Mark, YOU could not tell the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 in 2D or 3D (anybody's) and, I'd say it is a 50/50 shot if you did tell a difference you'd pick the 4:2:2 image as better.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-24-2017, 04:07 PM:

Added color capability aside, it still makes no sense to install a piece of what is essentially obsolete equipment in 2017. The only real reason GDC still makes that particular media block is for those that want to keep the older servers going. Can they make a new one? Of course they will. Sales are down and companies will do just about anything to sell a projector or server. Especially if it's old stuff still in stock they would like to move out.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-24-2017, 07:56 PM:

Whereas they will support it, just like an SX3000, it is no more obsolete than the SX3000. Price wise, the SX2001 is also reasonably attractive.

You like to jump into pools without water (Master Image, NC900s...etc. Just because they are newer). Newer can be great. But for me, the #1 feature is reliability. HDSDI lines are pretty reliable.

So why don't you dump your NEC/GDC "obsolete" series 2 stuff and get the Barco Laser projectors with the ICMP? It IS the cutting edge with demonstrable improvements. It "blows away" what you are putting in (to use your verbage). I'm a Barco guy and even I wouldn't touch the ICMP in its first year (any more than I would touch the NC900C-A in its first year).

Being on the cutting edge tends to get you the most expensive combined with the least reliable...pass.

The ICMP has gone though many growing pains (as did all of the server companies) and is already on its second iteration with the HDMI 2.0 version (the only one that does that too!), which is why NOW I'm looking at it seriously. I have to, it is the only server that can do what it can do with 4K and such.

Again, to each their own.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-26-2017, 10:38 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
it is no more obsolete than the SX3000.

From the standpoint of it doing less than the SX-3000 it is indeed obsolete. No HFR, No 12 Bit color in 3-Dee, eats up lots of unnecessary power (~300 watts vs ~50 watts).

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-26-2017, 11:10 AM:

And I did qualify it...so your BIG advantage of the SX3000 is that it helps with 3D...so if there is no 3D, you are down to potential power savings (remember, those external drives do suck power too and if you want reliability you'll get the enterprise storage unit not the psd toy.

Of those 3D "advantages" you have HFR, which, thus far, has proven a dismal failure for both 3D and 2D and a color space improvement that 99.99999% of the people will never see and 99.999999999999% of the people will never see in 3D.

Older != obsolete. Obsolete is not only out of production (which it isn't) it is also no longer supported.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-03-2017, 08:00 AM:

quote: Jarod Reddig
Sonys new 4K RGB laser dual engine single lens projector to be shown at CinemaCon is said by Sony to be designed with small cinema and consumer (residential) installations in mind. The prototype is gargantuan from what I hear.

quote: Marco Giustini
that's just the official statement, I'm curious to know how that thing works!

Here's some more information and some pictures. Currently, it sure looks like a prototype, but it's not gargantuan, not compared to other RGB laser projectors.

http://www.avsforum.com/sony-4k-rgb-laser-projector-cinemacon-2017/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaig n=AVSForum.com_daily&utm_source=AVSForum.com20170331

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-03-2017, 11:33 AM:

So, the official distinction on "Series 3" is...? Who makes the ICP (or its functionality) If TI makes the ICP, it is a series 2, if the OEMs make the ICP, it is a series 3. So most of the NEC laser based projectors, including the NC1000C-A (HMI lamp based) are "series 3", the Christie CP2308 and CP4325 and, I guess, any projector of Barco that uses an Alchemy (ICMP).

As I said, it isn't revolutionary, it is evolutionary. TI is going back to just being the DLP chip manufacturer (and other chips) but is progressively getting out of the PCB supply business.

For me, the biggest news at the show in terms of PROJECTORs was Christie's CP4325. That is the game change projector that everyone else will need to follow. 4K, RGB laser, 25,000 lumens, vents to the environment, no external chillers, much higher contrast, relatively small and priced like a laser-phosphor of 25,000 lumens.

Still in prototype but also clearly functional too (saw the demonstration). It hits ALL of the high points. That is the projector to keep an eye on.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 04-03-2017, 03:06 PM:

looks like a 3P laser source?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-03-2017, 04:21 PM:

Yeah. Christie doesn't do 6P. Their 6P systems are two 3P projectors.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 04-03-2017, 05:02 PM:

and aren't we concerned about that?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-03-2017, 05:53 PM:

Well they can't do spectral separation 3D that way. Some would say 3D is dead anyway. I don't know what their reasoning towards 3D is. Not much known yet.
Maybe spectral separation 3D will be possible with a dual projector setup. But that would eat away from their 42LH sales...

It's weird. There is hardly any market left (China, yes...), yet they all now launch so many new projectors. At the same time, the server market isn't moving a bit...

Steve - the NC1000 uses a NEC proprietary ICP? I thought it was just an NC900 with a beefed up lamp section, using the same lamps as Sony and Barco. The DCI CTP cert suggests it is using a TI ICP.

- Carsten

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-03-2017, 06:28 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
It's weird. There is hardly any market left (China, yes...), yet they all now launch so many new projectors. At the same time, the server market isn't moving a bit...

My guess would be that there are still enough Series 1 projectors in the field to constitute an upgrade market big enough for the manufacturers to want to make a "leapfrog to Series 3" option attractive, especially if the rollout of SMPTE DCPs forces that issue.

As for 3-D, there is no extra hardware needed to enable an RGB laser projector to do it, so you might as well offer the option, even if the market is dying. The manufacturers appear to be applying the Gillette business model to this one: they effectively give the projection capability away, but charge you up the bumhole for the glasses. We don't even have a set for our Barco DP4K-30L, yet: we were given a couple of pairs to test with when the projector was installed, but we'd need to buy 615 more for a full house to be able to see a 3-D DCP, which is a major financial obstacle. I gather that they're about $25 a pair, compared to $10 for the Dolby ones that work with their filter wheel system (but the filter wheel system itself costs around $15k).

If Christie really does have an RGB laser projector that needs no external chiller, no dedicated air extraction, kicks out 25K lumens (so can light a screen up to around 50 feet across), will work with existing servers, Enigma boards and IMBs, and sells for around the same price as an entry level laser phosphor machine from Barco or NEC, then I agree with Steve that they do indeed have a game changer.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-03-2017, 08:00 PM:

I think manufacturers really want to forget that Series 1 even exists. Stocking parts for them has to be a burden.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-03-2017, 08:52 PM:

Remember, the last series 1 projector, except the DP3000, came off the line December 2009 so most of those are 10 years old or soon approaching. There were a ton of 2010 series 2 projectors so again, we are hitting the 7-year mark on some of those. We are starting to see projectors age and some items are starting to fail just from age.

If the manufacturers didn't start with new designs, then they would be behind when the replacements are needed. You also have the issue that parts will become obsolete in a faster cycle than cinema. Note, Barco has changed their Cinema Controller Board, though it is backwards compatible.

I cannot claim to have worked on an NEC NC1000C-A yet but by description, the ICP is now, at least, partially owned by NEC. If you look at all images of the NC1000C-A, you typically see a blank slot, a cinema controller board, a blank slot (with a mysterious power indicator) and the IMS2000 (or NEC's rebadged version of it).

I've been told that there is no upgrade path for the NC900C-A to an NC1000 and that enough about it has changed, including the optics (light pipe).

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 04-12-2017, 10:25 AM:

On the original topic/question: the "Series" naming was a TI thing. The last in the series, "Series 3", covers the integration of ICP and IMB. Barco's ICMP was the first one to adopt it. We were just not that vocal in calling it Series 3. That is, a.o. other things, because the correct name should be "Series 3 electronics". All other things (engine, DMD's, ...) in any projector that calls itself Series 3, are very Series 2

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-12-2017, 12:31 PM:

Yes, I have a number of NC-2000 that have hit the 7 year mark. Time sure flies! My only failures in any NC-2000/32XX have been the router, and only the first version routers have failed. I have had a couple xenon supplies fail in NC-1200 but that was done under warranty.

My highest failure numbers are of local switches. A cheap part by any standard, but can still shut a screen down until it is replaced. I have now had seven local switches fail in about the last year. No specific brand either... they just randomly fail. None of them involved a service call as none of them are managed type switches. Oddly no TMS switches have failed YET. I will get some of these failed switches to see exactly what has failed in them... would like to know if it is power supply failure or just random ports that failed on them. I did have a bunch of SMC switches that randomly dropped ports at one site and we junked all those switches.

Mark

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-14-2017, 06:37 AM:

With local/TMS/SMC switches you're referring to ethernet switches I suppose?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-14-2017, 07:10 AM:

Yes. There are two networks for multiplex systems, basically local is the screen devices and tms is for tms content transfers. SMC is a brand of switch. Many brands of SOHO switches get used because they are much cheaper than the more reliable enterprise switches. Failures are not uncommon with these units. I don't know that any "name brand" switch is more or less reliable, we see a few failures every year with no major pattern.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-14-2017, 07:29 AM:

The average multiplex usually has even more networks for other purposes, or at least it should have... (All properly segmented and firewalled, but in a real world...) But I'm still just a bit surprised that, after you spent so much on expensive projectors, servers and audio equipment, you will save a few hundred bucks and put in some SMC soho switch and not some big-brand managed ethernet switch that can be divided into VLANs on-demand. [Wink]

If I look at switch failures over the past years, practically all of them have been honkytonk Linksys, Sitecom, Sweex or whatnot switches, mostly put there by either customers themselves or some contractor that needed more ports. My experience with Dell PowerConnect wasn't all that rosy either. But none of the big brand switches like Cisco (the proper ones, not the relabeled Linksys ones), HP(E), Juniper or Brocade have failed on me. Personally, I really like HP ProCurve. They offer life-time warranty, are pretty affordable and even after about 15 years of using them, I've had just one single failure quite recently.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-14-2017, 08:22 AM:

I used to think SMC was a solid brand, but I saw an amazing number of their switches (not the cheapest ones) fail in cinemas. I still believe in HP switches. I think their 'medium' range is affordable and reliable.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-14-2017, 10:00 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
With local/TMS/SMC switches you're referring to ethernet switches I suppose?

Yes, but just the local switches at the projectors...

No TMS switch failures and I have 42 TMS systems out there that I built... Waiting for the first one to croak any day now...

quote: Dave Macaulay
Many brands of SOHO switches get used because they are much cheaper than the more reliable enterprise switches.

Actually that is entirely untrue. The rash of SMC switch failures I experienced were all Enterprise type managed switches!! These were in two complex's, but at least in the same town, so getting rid of them was quick. I also have managed switches at home and the bloody fans in them absolutely suck. They are noisy and fail quickly leading to other failure issues if not caught and replaced. When I replace fans in these switches they can usually be be replaced with quieter fans that give the same airflow, so at least you get rid of the whine. I will not install a switch if it has a bloody fan in it in movie theaters. The SMC's did not have fans... Those switches just randomly had ports die.

There is really no need for managed local switches unless you have booth monkeys that like to tinker. I don't have that problem at any site, and some of my sites are so far away that being able to easily walk the customers through an issue and not having to log in to a stupid switch is a good thing. Managed switches are ok in a TMS though and a firewall is also ok, but not absolutely necessary in a small complex.

Overall, switches pretty much suck on every level fmr the 49.00 ones up to the multi-thousand dollar switches. They are designed to only last so long. If they did last for ever the switch manufacturers would go out of business.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-14-2017, 12:31 PM:

Thus far, I've had no problem with SMC unmanaged switched that we put in from 2008 onward. I too like the HP ProCurve switches and have had a 100% success rate with them. I've had one bad power cube though (DOA).

Like Mark, I don't believe in using managed switches unless they bring something to the table. For the switch at each projector, I've opted, mostly to stick with unmanaged.

Most of the TMS systems I've put in have managed switches for the two networks (Media and Management) but really, the Management switch could probably be unmanaged without issue. Now, via the router I can firewall off the various VLANs and also, if desired, restrict who/what has access to what. About all that using a managed switch would bring to the table in the individual theatre is if I wanted to ensure that nobody could just plug in and "see" the network. You can still keep them off the internet based on how you configure your router.

I'm sure it depends on your environment as to how big a deal it is and if you are really trying to monitor network traffic.

I see managed switches as another point of failure, cost, time to configure that bring little back in return. Now if you do need to create different VLANs then sure.

I've dabbled with a few TPLink managed switches because they were low-cost and came reasonably recommended (and support Q-SYS too). There, the cost of going managed versus unmanaged wasn't significant. But even then, I've had them "forget" their IPs!!!! So I'm back to added headache for not perceivable benefit.

HP ProCurve 1410 series and now the 1420 series have done me VERY well for unmanaged solutions and they have managed ones as well. They also have their PoE stuff in the 1420 series too, which is proving handy in some cases.