Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Updating sound system

This is topic Updating sound system - amp choices in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 05-12-2017, 05:02 AM:

We are a part-time art house cinema which has been operating for 43 years. Presently in the process of securing funding to update our aged sound system, our theatre is 11.2 metres long but widens out from front to back (8.2 metres wide at front and 22 metres wide at the back).

In terms of loudspeakers, we have been specified (all QSC):

SC 323C (Tri-tri amped) for the three stage speakers.
SB 7218 Sub
10 x SR 1020 surrounds

For amps, we have been specified two possible systems:

QSC Core 110F
4 x QSC DPA4.2 4 channel amps

versus

QSC DCM30D Monitor/crossover
3 x QSC DCA 1222 2 channel amps (Mid/high frequency stage speakers)
1 x QSC DCA 1824 4 channel amp (surrounds)
4 x QSC DCA 1622 2 channel amps (low frequency stage units and bridged for sub)

We already have the four DCA 1622's in our existing system which the supplier has incorporated into the above spec'.

I have an inclination to stay with the DCA range and the more instinctive fault-finding offered by the DCM30D monitor.

Any recommendations from those of you with more experience would be welcome.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-12-2017, 07:39 AM:

As a general rule, you'd have to try pretty hard to get a bad system from QSC so you are in a win-win situation there.

I would change the speaker choice, myself, to the SC-423C or SC-424 as I feel the components offer a superior sonic value. The SC-424, even wired in tri-amp fashion has an extra compression driver coaxially mounted to handle frequencies above 7KHz so the system is pretty effortless going through the screen for the high-frequencies. Most systems sound "pushed" in order to get above 10KHz and, as such, can sound harsh.

If you are going Q-Sys, stick with DPA-Q amplifiers. I'm not a fan of the straight DPA amps. They can suck half a day away if they need updates and once you have a Q-Sys core in the system, why not go all network for the amplifiers?

So what is the purpose of going Q-SYS in your system here? Is the 110F to be your cinema processor too with a good UI (UCI)? If not, perhaps the QSYS is overkill unless you want additional flexibility that drag-n-drop type DSPs offer.

If so, then the DCM-30D and DCA amps is sufficient for your needs and there is no need to spend the extra on what a DSP based solution offers. The DCM/DCA solution is VERY tried and true.

As for fault finding, a Q-SYS system can run rings around a traditional system there but you really are at the mercy of whoever sets up your system to take advantage of it.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-12-2017, 08:30 AM:

Andy - what is you current (and future) cinema audio processor?

What type of content will be shown in this location?

- Carsten

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 05-12-2017, 09:01 AM:

Many thanks for your observations, Steve. I have already requested pricing for the speaker you suggest.

Carsten, we are using a CP750 processor (which we intend to keep).

Most of our content is fairly laid-back art-house type cinema material, with the odd bit of mainstream second-run. Some content can be very demanding.

Additionally, we get the odd bit of Indian cinema (Telegu) which is usually recorded hot anyway and is usually accompanied by demands to play louder!

We are looking for subtlety combined with an ability to cope with brute power at times (I suppose everyone wants that)!

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-12-2017, 10:12 AM:

On the content issue, I know that this could be seen as a luxury for which you might struggle to justify funding (grant and loan applications, etc.), but have you thought about five stage channels? If you regularly play Todd-AO and/or SDDS 8-track classics for which the original mixes are available, either on DCPs of digital restorations, or DTS special venue discs for 70mm presentations, it could be worth considering.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-12-2017, 12:10 PM:

quote:
We are looking for subtlety combined with an ability to cope with brute power at times (I suppose everyone wants that)!

After spending over a decade playing foreign and art films, in my opinion, dialogue intelligibility is key.

I used to spend quite a lot of time with a cobbled-together sound system, trying to tweak things so that the dialogue was crystal clear. British and Irish accents are the most demanding for an American audience. (I suppose the tables would be turned for a British audience. [Wink]

)

Thus, I would lean toward the tri-amped system. Hopefully, that would allow you to adjust for that "razor sharp" dialogue.

Overall power is usually good but dialogue is where I'd put my money if you are showing mostly art films.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-12-2017, 01:16 PM:

What's the purpose of the QSYS in your installation? Unless the 110f is cheaper than I expect, I feel it's going to be redundant as you already have a CP750. Last time I checked the 110f could not install an AES input so you still have to feed analogue lines.

Unless you have some special requirements to go with a QSYS, I'd go with a DCM+DCA which is a great combination.
You could also consider an AP20 - that would replace both the CP750 and the DCM30, provide superior EQ and LOTS of alternative inputs including HDMI DTS-MA. It can also be a POWERFUL automation device, when paired with a proper extension board. You lose the Dataport connection though. I am not a fan of it as you end up pushing the outputs of the sound processor into the DCM though - which can and will lead to clipping unless you have tons of speakers.

Indeed steer clear from non-Q DPA amps.
Also remember that good sound is 50% equipment and 50% acoustic. If the acoustic is poor, you can invest a billion pounds into the equipment and it will still sound bad! [Smile]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-12-2017, 03:55 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
(I suppose the tables would be turned for a British audience. [Wink] )

I wouldn't say so: because probably around 80% of the movies shown in mainstream British cinemas are from Hollywood, British audiences grow up hearing US English dialect and accents, and quickly get used to them. And the only situations I know of in which UK voices are a serious problem for American audiences are when they're very thick regional ones. My wife couldn't cope with the original Get Carter without the DVD hard-of-hearing subtitles on, and the US 35mm prints of My Name is Joe were subtitled (I remember this, because they accidentally put some of the subtitled prints into British distribution, too, and that nearly caused a diplomatic incident between England and Scotland!); but those are the only two examples I can think of off the top of my head.

One difference I've found between Britain and the US is that the regional dialect and accent can change dramatically over a very small distance. Travel, say, from York to Newcastle (84 miles), and I wouldn't be surprised if someone who had learned English as a second language believed that they were hearing a totally separate language. You simply wouldn't hear that much change between, say, LA and Santa Barbara (roughly the same distance).

Let's face it - 9 out of 10 British movies that make it across the pond are Jane Austen/Shakespeare costume drama type crap, those all have cut glass BBC voices, and the kind of viewer who would seek those out would need to be listening through a badly tuned AM radio to have problems making out the dialogue.

Sorry - wandering OT...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-12-2017, 04:37 PM:

If there is money for a Q-SYS, in such an environment, I would opt for an AP20. That said, there is a new QSC cinema processor with HDMI - the DPM 100H. I don't know if it's already available. I would also think that location has frequent need for HDMI connectivity. What server and projector is installed?

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-12-2017, 04:38 PM:

Oh...I dunno the US accents can get very thick and change pretty heavily with a relatively short drive. The "southern accent" is not one unified one, by any stretch. A Tennessee accent is much thicker than a Carolina one and Mississippi is dramatically different too and within a state it can vary quite a bit. In the New England area again there isn't a unified accent either.

Back OT. How is Datasat doing? I'm not sure I'd recommend an AP20, at this stage, unless something has dramatically improved. The DPM100/H is shipping (at least in the USA). However, it violates my 1-year probation clause. I don't like to use things in their first year of production unless they really solve a particular problem. I'm pretty sure you cannot triamp the DPM100 either. It is much more in the line of the DCP100 or DCM10D type system.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-12-2017, 05:05 PM:

Steve, do you mean Datasat's health as a company?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-12-2017, 10:02 PM:

I have always questioned Datasat's longevity in the cinema field. There can't be very much money in it for them any more. This is why I have gone another route.

Mark

Posted by Annli Com (Member # 8266) on 05-12-2017, 11:00 PM:

Dear Andy Frodsham

you mean the indian cinema in BAAHUBALI 2 ?
The Movie Recording In High level Outputs , we are drive CP750 Fader level 4.0 for the movie.The Movie Sounds Center low level Surround Is High.
Center HF Failed more locations run the movie.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 05-12-2017, 11:55 PM:

One thing that me be keeping Datasat alive is the Auro 11.1 system is based on the Datasat processor.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-13-2017, 09:28 AM:

Yeah, Datasat as a company. I believe Barco is now making their own Auro sound processor.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-13-2017, 09:40 AM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
probably around 80% of the movies shown in mainstream British cinemas are from Hollywood, British audiences grow up hearing US English dialect and accents, and quickly get used to them.

quote: Steve Guttag
Oh...I dunno the US accents can get very thick and change pretty heavily with a relatively short drive. The "southern accent" is not one unified one, by any stretch. A Tennessee accent is much thicker than a Carolina one and Mississippi is dramatically different too and within a state it can vary quite a bit. In the New England area again there isn't a unified accent either.

Points taken and agreed. However, the point I was making is that in a cinema where mainly art/foreign/independent films are shown, you have a more common occurrence of dialogue with accents and dialects that the audience might or might not be familiar with.

Even though you have to have good dialogue intelligibility in all cinemas, an art house should pay even more attention to it.

Some of you guys are familiar with the crazy conditions (management) that I used to work under and the things I used to go through just to get a movie to look and sound right. Through all of those troubled times, one theme stood out... Dialogue.

It was partly because of the design of the house and the management's unwillingness to spend the money that was necessary to do things right. It was partly because of the content and it was partly due to the demographics of the audience. (Senior citizens.)

I certainly hope Andy's job isn't as crazy as mine was but I do advise that, when designing a new sound system, good dialogue should be at or near the top of his list of priorities.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 05-13-2017, 10:56 AM:

quote: Randy Stankey
It was partly because of the content and it was partly due to the demographics of the audience. (Senior citizens.)

Yup, if you're doing Art, your demo is old people. Really good mono will be more appreciated then really good stereo. Stereo is going to be for those shows that bring in the kids (under 40 these days).

And to Leo's point, even with the BBC/Masterpiece Theatre accents, they are still going to want subtitles. Pretty much every Ken Loach movie should have subtitles [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-13-2017, 11:25 AM:

No one around here is installing AURO, The closest I believe is 5 hours away in Boise...

Mark

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 05-15-2017, 05:51 AM:

I don't think we will be installing anything more ambitious than 7.1 for the foreseeable future, so I think more elaborate audio processors may be out of the question.

I personally favour staying with the DCA amp line. we don't really have any need to site any amps remotely and the practicalities of doing so in this dual usage location (lecture theatre and cinema) might prove difficult.

Additionally, I like the idea of being able to re-route any amps physically rather than delving into various menus and submenus on a laptop.

For those that asked, are current gear (apart from the CP750) comprises: a Dolby DSS220 server with Dolby IMB 745 and Barco DP2K-12C projector. Are amps (all DCA 1622's) feed a mix of second hand screen speakers and new JBL Control 20 surrounds!

We generally play our sound at 4.1 to 4.4. A setting of 3.8 for Indian films is usually more than adequate!

Annli, yes we did indeed screen BAAHUBALI 2! Didn't seem particularly louder than any other Indian productions, but, as usual, I was aware that our old loudspeakers were complaining!

Very many thanks, as ever, for all your replies.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-15-2017, 10:35 AM:

quote: Andy Frodsham
a Dolby DSS220 server with Dolby IMB 745 and Barco DP2K-12C projector.

Allright, in that case you have twin HDMI inputs and HDMI->AES audio passthrough. That may be enough to skip the idea of switching to an AP20 for alternative content needs.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-15-2017, 12:57 PM:

I am not familiar with the Control 20 - only Control one and 25, the latter being massively unlinear and require buckets of EQ.

Are the Control 20 ceiling speakers?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-15-2017, 02:00 PM:

Some of the Control series is near field for use on the back of a mixing desk, so you have to be careful.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 05-15-2017, 03:04 PM:

My mistake Marco! Our JBL surrounds are indeed Control 25s and despite the small size are not actually the worst part of our system!

They are wall mounted type devices.