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Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 07-14-2017, 07:05 PM:
 
Article, from Engadget. " . . . might be too close to watching TV in public for some cinephiles . . ."



So you just spent $120,000 on a 120-inch 4K HDR screen and think you've got the biggest, baddest TV around? Nope! Samsung has unveiled the Cinema LED Screen that's an epic 10.3 meters (33.8 feet, or 406 inches). It runs at full 4K (4,096 x 2,160) resolution, features HDR and peaks out at 146 fL of brighntess, "ten times greater than that offered by standard projector technologies," Samsung said in a news release.

The set, first teased in March this year, offers a "distortion-free" presentation with deep blacks, accurate whites and bright colors "at a nearly infinite contrast ratio," according to Samsung. While it didn't say so, the extra brightness could possibly improve 3D films, which normally look dim with projection systems due to the polarized glasses required.

To complement the image quality, Samsung worked with its JBL by Harman division on the sound tech. That system features speakers around the screen, proprietary audio processing tech, and "Sculpted Surround Sound" from JBL to provide more dramatic and faithful audio.
Samsung Electronics unveiled the model at the Lotte Cinema in Korea, saying it's the "first ever commercial Cinema LED Screen" it has installed. The average movie theater screen is around 50 feet, but the 33.8-foot Cinema Screen would be a good fit in smallish multiplex rooms.

Samsung says it adapts to a wider range of dark and ambient lighting situations, making it work well for corporate events, sports viewing and gaming competitions. For films, it would certainly offer a very different experience than a projector and might be too close to watching TV in public for some cinephiles.

Samsung is obviously one of the few companies out there, perhaps along with LG, that could even create such a giant LED screen. It was certified by the Digital Cinema Initiatives (DCI), meaning it can showcase films in theaters with unaltered color spectrum accuracy. As for the price, unless you've got an 80-foot yacht parked in the harbor, it's probably best not to ask.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-14-2017, 07:18 PM:
 
In what universe is the average movie screen fifty feet wide? Thirty feet is probably far more likely.
 

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Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 07-14-2017, 08:34 PM:
 
I was just working on a Dunkirk 70mm install at a Century Theatre in Daley City CA and it has a 44 ft wide screen and it is not the XD screen either.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 07-15-2017, 04:39 AM:
 
How does that work with the pixel resolution? Are the panels custom-manufactured to provide a 1:1 mapping?
What I am saying is that the pixel pitch will change with the side of the screen. If those panels have a fixed resolution then you cannot end up exactly at 4096x2160 and they would be forced to rescale.

How do they handle the change in pixel pitch between flat (3996x2160) and scope (4096x1716)? It can't be possible, so I guess those screens have a much higher resolution and they then just rescale.
 

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Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 07-15-2017, 10:39 AM:
 
At this point, I believe it's single size only.
96 cabinets arranged in a 10.3x5.4m array, each cabinet is 256x360 pixels. The pixel pitch is 2.5mm.

Since it's 4096x2160 on a 1.9:1 aspect ratio, Scope is letterboxed and Flat is pillarboxed with no scaling involved except the usual pixel quadrupling with 2K material.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-15-2017, 11:28 AM:
 
This "cinema screen" Samsung is showcasing is not exactly ground-breaking new technology. This is basically an LED-based "jumbotron" sign, just one with a fairly tight pixel pitch. Maybe Samsung is the first to try to sell such a product to install in traditional movie theaters.

Sony has its "CLEDIS" crystal LED technology. They have these "canvas" displays with pixel pitches down to 1.2mm. The LEDs themselves are almost microscopic to allow a lot of black in between each pixel.

Daktronics is the biggest American LED jumbotron manufacturer. They're mainly known for traditional outdoor LED signs and huge LED signs for sports stadiums. They're putting the finishing touches on the world's largest sports stadium LED sign, the enormous halo ring going into the Atlanta Falcons' new stadium. They have narrow pixel pitch UHD video displays in different sizes and pixel pitches, from 2.5mm down to 1.2mm

quote: Marco Giustini

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How does that work with the pixel resolution? Are the panels custom-manufactured to provide a 1:1 mapping?
What I am saying is that the pixel pitch will change with the side of the screen. If those panels have a fixed resolution then you cannot end up exactly at 4096x2160 and they would be forced to rescale.

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Just like any flat screen electronic display the content must be mapped to the display's pixels 1:1. The content will look its best when it's created exactly for the native resolution of the display. Scaling will almost always soften the image (unless you're doing something like an exact 4K down to 2K reduction with bilinear resampling).

Companies like Daktronics make a variety of different LED boards with many different pixel pitches for both indoor and outdoor use. They have the really tight 1.2mm, 1.9mm and 2.5mm SMD LED boards for UHD use. You can go 4mm, 6mm, 10mm, 15mm and 20mm. The driver boards are modular. So you can custom configure whatever size and pitch you need (and what your budget can handle, this stuff can get very expensive very quick).

I don't expect these Jumbotron style screens to take over movie theaters any time soon. Cost is one really big issue. How much is Samsung wanting for their cinema screen?

I think audio is just as big a problem, and probably a deal breaker for really large screens. Speakers above and below the screen only seem to work for modest sized auditoriums. It doesn't work well for giant sized screens.

As tiny as some of these LED clusters are being made I think it's possible to create a porous curtain-like LED system that can hang in front of stage speakers. But that would require a lot of design changes in how these boards are built. If you open up a LED sign you'll see all sorts of fans, ribbon cables and other stuff connected to each square tile of LEDs. Somehow the manufacturers have to change how the LED boards are connected so they don't require a big solid chunk of plastic and metal going into each tile of LEDs.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-15-2017, 01:24 PM:
 
That could be done with flex circuits.

They are just a sheet of laminated multi-layer polyester (or something) with the circuit traces between the layers. They can even laminate flex circuits between sections of standard fiberglass/epoxy circuit board. With that and some low-profile snap connectors it would be possible to make flexible, perforated LED panels in almost any size you want.

The SMT machines where I work can handle panels from 3 inches square up to 18 or 24 inches.

Flex circuits are a pain in the ass to manufacture but flexible, giant screen LED displays with perforations are certainly within the realm of current manufacturing technology.

I can't tell you the details because of ITAR regulations but I can tell you that we make stuff like that on a pretty regular basis.

Some of those surface-mount LEDs are smaller than a grain of rice.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-15-2017, 02:14 PM:
 
It's a good thing some of these LEDs are so tiny (the ones in Sony's CLEDIS system are about as thick as a strand of hair). The black between the LED pixels is very important for contrast and very dark black levels.

A flexible LED screen that allowed sound to pass through would still need to be modular for maintenance. It would be cost prohibitive to replace an entire screen just because one pixel got stuck or went dead. The components do wear out over time. It's a lot cheaper to replace one driver board. The manufacturers have been getting better at making these displays easier to maintain. They'll have to go farther with LED movie theater screens.

I'll be hanging out with some of Daktronics' people in 4 weeks at a regional sign convention at a casino resort near Joplin. I'll talk with them about some of this stuff.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-15-2017, 02:49 PM:
 
Imagine a panel with a "picture frame" of standard fiberglass/epoxy, 1/2 inch wide around the four sides with low-pro snap connectors at the edges. The LEDs could be mounted on a sheet of flex circuit inside that frame. It could be a sheet of perforated PET laminate or it could be made of thin strips. (Like a woven pie crust.) There could be support/driver circuitry around the frames.

These panels could be, maybe, 6 inches square and they could snap together at the edges like Legos.

With today's technology, it is certainly possible to create something like this. You could make giant LED displays in virtually any size you want.

Some of the SMT components that I work with are the size of a small grain of rice or a large grain of sand. I keep a 10X photographer's loupe in my pocket in case I need to verify a component ID. I know that there are SMD LEDs as small as 1 mm X 2 mm. That includes the component case and everything. The elements inside are microscopic. I have no doubt that there are LEDs, as you say, as small as a human hair.

With the new technologies that are emerging, I have no doubt that it would be possible to manufacture LEDs directly onto a polyester flex circuit.

From what I know by experience and the things I read about, I believe that, in the next decade, it would be possible to manufacture a flexible LED cinema screen that could be rolled up, shipped and installed in a similar way to the way that traditional movie screens are done today.
 

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Posted by Neil Brimelow (Member # 9480) on 07-16-2017, 01:35 AM:
 
I'm just curious if anyone has found out the price on this new Samsung Cinematic Abomination?

The only way it would be viable for smaller theaters is if the cost is $50k, or less. Nobody's going to drop $120k on a "TV" screen when a $30k projector (or less) will do. Also, the custom sound workaround doesn't sound cheap either.

But, it is 2017, and there are much more advanced tech from other companies, and even large 4k UHD sets can be found for less than $500 bucks. Heck, we priced out a monochrome 36 inch tall, 38 foot wide sign for the theater and it only cost $4,500 shipped.

To be honest, I'm just surprised it took this long for "Big TV" to hit theaters.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 07-16-2017, 07:04 AM:
 
Neil,

That screen does outperform (I'm basing my claim on the datasheet) a £30K projector big time.
You should compare it with a Laser HC solution, not with a NC900!
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-16-2017, 08:08 AM:
 
Well then, who puts a HC laser in the back of a 10m screen?

The real benefit compared to ALL current projection solutions is it's ability to operate at very high ambient light levels. There are certainly applications where that capability justifies the high price. I don't know, however, where such a price level, application, medium screen size, and 'cinema' meet.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-16-2017, 08:41 AM:
 
I believe the price will drop, dramatically. I believe it is already in the RGB Laser price point. Imagine a flexible direct view OLED screen. Something where sound can come from behind the screen. Something where you can curve it for esthetics without the geometric issues of a reflected screen. You could even make such a screen non-reflective to Exit signs. You have a VERY high contrast ratio. You have a technology that is more generic (OLED) rather than proprietary and VERY expensive to maintain (DLP). You have a technology that the likes of the consumer can make cheaper via mass production that DLP and cinema would never achieve.

It is the end game of cinema viewing, not projectors.

It isn't there yet but it is definitely like looking at the 1.3K DCinema projectors; you know it won't be too far off.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-16-2017, 10:28 AM:
 
You said it Steve..it is the end game of cinema viewing..and the end of the cinema as a viable alternative to what you can get at home.

Let me elaborate: With projection technologies, there is theoretically no limit to the types of presentations that can be done, based on the use of a standard screen. You can do a shadow puppet artsy fartsy show if you wanted to, as an extreme example. Any type of direct lit screen cannot accommodate that. With a little thought you could come up with other types of presentations that would be cumbersome or not possible with that type of "screen."

One real-world example from my days at the university screening room comes to mind. We had a film print come in without subtitles..the subtitled print was overseas and could not be sent to us in time. The filmmaker had, however, a powerpoint file with the subtitles on it. So we set up a laptop in the booth, operated by a student familiar with the film and the language, and used our video projector re-aimed and masked off to shoot the subtitles to the bottom of the screen. It worked great and got us through the show.

Now, in the above scenario, unless the new tech screen could simultaneously (in real time) accept an input that is DCI compliant AND an non-DCI compliant input whose location could be mapped separately, we would have been screwed. And we know that the DCI nazis would never allow such a thing to happen.

Obviously that was a very unusual set of conditions, but you get the idea.

Bottom line is, I still don't like how we have migrated from a proven technology that was working and versatile for many years, (and had it's own set of issues of course) to a technology that HAS to be changed/upgraded "constantly" for no reel end other than making more money for the studios (who are trying their hardest to destroy the whole exhibition chain so they can go direct to video or online).

End game indeed.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-16-2017, 11:16 AM:
 
Tony,

If that was a major concern, it could be accommodated. We have one venue that invested in auxiliary screens just for subtitles! That is, you can these two very rectangular screens to the bottom masking board and you have subtitle screens and project on them.

I do not think of direct view LED screens as any more of a threat to cinema as any other home technology. The classic restaurant rule comes into play here. You can have professional stoves/ovens all you want at home and for convenience and price, you can stay at home but people STILL want to go out.

I still maintain that what theatres should work together on is pushing that release window out to a year, particularly on A-list movies such that the home doesn't have access for, at least, 1-year.

If it is just technology, the home has eclipsed most cinemas a long time ago. Sound wise, there are many other choices and the person can pick what suits their hearing tastes best. Picture wise, 4K in the home isn't even "special" anymore, it is standard. The Cinema continues to be stuck at 2K with mostly miserable 4K options (low contrast, or speckle, VERY high costs).

It just doesn't cost the homeowner all that much to set up a reasonably impressive home-theatre with technology that stands pretty close to professional and, in many cases, better.
 

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Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 07-16-2017, 11:34 AM:
 

quote: Steve Guttag

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I still maintain that what theatres should work together on is pushing that release window out to a year, particularly on A-list movies such that the home doesn't have access for, at least, 1-year.

If it is just technology, the home has eclipsed most cinemas a long time ago. Sound wise, there are many other choices and the person can pick what suits their hearing tastes best. Picture wise, 4K in the home isn't even "special" anymore, it is standard. The Cinema continues to be stuck at 2K with mostly miserable 4K options (low contrast, or speckle, VERY high costs).

It just doesn't cost the homeowner all that much to set up a reasonably impressive home-theatre with technology that stands pretty close to professional and, in many cases, better.

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quote: Daniel Schulz

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but digital cinema projection is still superior to even UHD Blu Ray.

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in a post production studio.
Then you go to your local cinema, 3D is run at 0.8fL, picture is blurry, convergence is off etc.

Carsten,
I've seen 6P laser machines on 10m screens myself. Not HC though
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-16-2017, 07:25 PM:
 
The gap keeps narrowing. REC 2020 is wider than DCI P3 and the home viewing technology improves year-by-year. DCinema has to take snapshots at technology in order to be financially viable (businesses cannot change out their equipment very often or they'll go broke).

Contrast ratio at the home can be better than commercial cinema (direct view LED) is going to beat DLP or even film!

Compression is still worse but again, the difference is getting narrower.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-16-2017, 07:30 PM:
 
I always figured direct view LEDs would someday compete with projectors for showing movies in commercial theaters. Years ago I figured the day would come many years in the future, but the technology appears to be improving much more rapidly.

My primary concerns with "jumbrotron" style screens has been color quality, maintenance and cost per pixel. The cost has been coming down as the technology continues to scale in production. Our sign company is continuing to sell ever better LED signs to businesses because the cost per pixel continues to fall and the displays are getting more durable and easier/cheaper to maintain. The color quality of these displays has improved dramatically. In the early 2000's LED signs were pretty garish looking. Shadow and highlight detail would almost always be crushed or blown-out. New displays look so much better. And you have the full RGB spectrum to use, not a reduced gamma range like REC 709 or REC 2020.

quote: Neil Brimelow

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I'm just curious if anyone has found out the price on this new Samsung Cinematic Abomination?

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quote: Steve Guttag

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Compression is still worse but again, the difference is getting narrower.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The big key in this is residential and mobile Internet bandwith speeds. Just here in back-woods freaking Lawton our cable Internet ISP now provides 250 megabit per second service. That's 10 times the typical bandwidth you see from a movie on consumer Blu-ray disc. Gigabit Internet speeds are becoming more common in larger cities. Mobile phone companies are battling each other for bragging rights in advanced 4G and new "5G" technology, demonstrating bandwidths above 200Mb/s and 300Mb/s. In another 10 years Gigabit Internet speeds will be pretty common. And at that time any bandwidth advantages d-cinema theaters have over home viewing options may be a moot point.

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quote: Scott Norwood

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Bobby (or anyone else who might know): what would a screen like this weigh? Could it be flown like a regular movie screen in a live stage house, or would it need to be fixed in its position?

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quote: Lyle Romer

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All of those speeds are peak, not sustained. Consumer plans don't have dedicated pipes with the speed guaranteed even with fiber. The oversubscription ratio in the network makes it highly unlikely to be able to stream video at those speeds. Sure, you could download it first.

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quote: Scott Norwood

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Bobby (or anyone else who might know): what would a screen like this weigh? Could it be flown like a regular movie screen in a live stage house, or would it need to be fixed in its position?

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Also, flexibility in screen sizes still will make this an issue, as long as you want to avoid scaling and don't care about "oddball" aspect ratios and maximizing screen real-estate.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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This thing was already discussed in this topic. Unless they find a way to make it audio-transparent AND get rid of potential screen-door effects even in the front row, I don't see any use for this in big venues.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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All current LED screen installs are considerably more heavyweight than any conventional screen. In general, I wouldn't really want to fly such a screen, because it's a pretty delicate piece of electronics.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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To repeat what I said earlier, these manufacturers already make these boards in various pixel pitches. Different pitches will create different screen sizes.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The screen door effect issue is solved by installing a display with the correct pitch for viewing distance. If a unit with something like a 4mm or 2.5mm pitch is too coarse then you can go tighter to something like 1.9mm or 1.2mm.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The Daktronics units we sell are not "delicate," especially the outdoor units. These things have to stand up to serious weather conditions: heat, cold, rain, wind, hail and dust.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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I've seen them in malls, large sports bars, stadiums and hanged on the exteriors or interiors of other kinds of businesses. These displays are going to continue getting better and better.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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If it is just technology, the home has eclipsed most cinemas a long time ago. Sound wise, there are many other choices and the person can pick what suits their hearing tastes best. Picture wise, 4K in the home isn't even "special" anymore, it is standard. The Cinema continues to be stuck at 2K with mostly miserable 4K options (low contrast, or speckle, VERY high costs).

It just doesn't cost the homeowner all that much to set up a reasonably impressive home-theatre with technology that stands pretty close to professional and, in many cases, better.

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quote: Martin McCaffery

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Less than ten years, eh?
Just enough time for everyone to invest in at least one more round of digital projectors.

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quote: Mattias Mattsson

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Wouldn't it be possible to use WFS (Wave field synthesis) instead of putting the front speakers behind the screen?

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quote: Martin McCaffery

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Just enough time for everyone to invest in at least one more round of digital projectors.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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In 2015, Barco bought Iosono from the he Fraunhofer Institute. Iosono essentially developed a WFS system for large venues, like cinema auditoriums. Before Barco bought them, they even fitted a few screens with the technology and remixed a few movies. I haven't heard anything from them though, since they've been acquired. Whether Barco is planning a new audio decoder product and possible even a format based upon their technology or it will just rot away within their portfolio of unused technology with great potential, remains to be seen.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Unfortunately, not really relevant until Samsung starts making them. Or others, like Daktronics join the DCI train and implement end-to-end encryption.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Also, even with variable pixel pitches, you're not as flexible as with current screen sizes. And you still don't account for the many different aspect ratios we're currently dealing with.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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At least, as long as I can zoom or anamorphically squeeze the image, I'm presenting the image without any scaling. You simply can't do this with a fixed pixel imaging device like a LED wall.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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This will even further complicate designing the display correctly, at least if I want to have my screen a "native" 4K resolution. You see, many of those modern PLF cinemas really run over-sized hunks of screens. On many of those screens you clearly can see pixels, EVEN in 4K.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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I know, because I've seen it. Back in 2013, when 4K slowly became a thing, I already saw a demo of a giant 4K LED wall by Barco. It looked amazing from a distance, but from a normal "seating distance" in any modern "PLF screen", I already started to notice the screen door effect.

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quote: Daniel Schulz

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I don't know if they're continuing development on WFS for cinema, but one nifty thing that came out of that acquisition was the AuroMax renderer, used to render an MDA object-based soundtrack into an Auro speaker configuration. Anticipating a future in which SMPTE standardizes on an object-based delivery system, they needed an upgrade path for cinemas that had already upgraded to Auro 11.1. They used the technology & engineering expertise from Iosono to help build a really first-class object-based audio rendering system, to compete with Atmos and DTS:X.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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You can try to imply building LED boards at different pixel pitches or incorporated DCI compliant security are huge hurdles. They are not.

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quote:

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You're assuming current movie theaters are actually "dealing with" multiple aspect ratios when most are really taking a giant shit on them. There are countless thousands of un-masked, "wall to wall" common width movie theater screens showing damned near every movie letter-boxed, just like watching a fucking HDTV set at home -except the HDTV at least has the picture properly framed and in focus.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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LED walls can be built to just about any aspect ratio. Check out the giant 360 degree LED ring Daktronics is putting in the Atlanta Falcons' new stadium. There are custom projects where the LED board is an irregular shape or you have things like giant letters filled with LED clusters to play motion graphics and even video.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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Most movies aren't rendered in 4K; they're just 2K. Witness the joke that is the Ultra-HD Blu-ray format where very few of the titles have native 4K resolution. The 4K theater is either going to show these movies with a more obvious pixel grid or an image that is softer looking due to bicubic smoothing re-sampling.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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What are the spes on this Barco board? How large was it, what was the pixel pitch and viewing distance? Four years ago very few jumbotron boards were even getting built near 2K resolution levels. The really tight boards in 1.2mm, 1.9mm and 2.5mm weren't getting made yet. So I can't help but wonder if the display you saw really was 4K. I've heard plenty of sales people stretch the truth or just plain lie when selling electronics.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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Overglow from LEDs does a lot to hide the black space between the LEDs. Like I said earlier, the right kind of board has to be installed for the viewing distance. Customers buying LED boards for outdoor signs, billboards or even closer viewing indoor applications will often go with more coarse pitch displays to cut costs.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The fundamentals of LED boards are not really any different from a home TV screen. A giant sized 1080p screen viewed from only a few feet will be showing off a fairly obvious pixel grid to anyone with good eye sight. The same size TV in 4K will have a much tighter pixel grid. 6K and 8K shrinks the grid much more.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Obviously, you have absolutely no clue at all what it takes to become a DCI certified supplier and what kind of security implementations are required to meet the specs. If it would be so simple, why didn't all those other projector manufacturers jump on the DCI train? Why leave this potentially lucrative market segment behind? Currently we have Barco, Christie, NEC and Sony to choose from. I can't install a Panasonic, Epson or whatever other brand of projector, because it simply won't play DCI content from any studio. I can't even just install any Barco projector I would want to use, I need to pick a model that is DCI certified. It's not just an optional check mark, I simply won't be able to play the content as the server would not allow me to.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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That was an uniformed moment there.

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quote:

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First, DCinema is NOT a lucrative market. For many it is a prestige market. There are about 150,000 screens in the WORLD. If you cut the pie up to just 4 suppliers you are down to 37,500 units. That is not a very appetizing number for a lot of manufacturers. And that isn't annual sales either!

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quote: Steve Guttag

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TI deliberately limited the OEMs to three! Digital Projection Inc was to be the third DLP OEM but got cold feet and backed out, freeing up NEC.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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Samsung showed their TV at Cinema Con 2017. It used a GDC server and guess what, it is already DCI certified. The big security hurdles are in the mediablock. That is where the valuables are turn from scattered bits into picture and sound.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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Getting big screen TVs DCI certified isn't going to be the hurdle you think it will be. The prestige part of cinema has a lot of potential payoffs for display companies like Samsung that has a HUGE consumer presence. The money they spend on making cinema displays can be ported to potential consumer sales which takes them from 150K to hundreds of millions and billions with higher turnover rates.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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Think about it. With film, how many new projector companies were clamoring to break into the lucrative market of cinema? With film projectors, you just needed access to mechanical engineers and a machine shop. There wasn't any licensing needed. But how much time and money are going to put into a product that you hope to sell a few hundred a year?

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quote: Steve Guttag

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They achieved DCI compliant by March 22nd 2017

http://www.dcimovies.com/compliant_equipment/KEIO-Samsung-RAK0116ZZ-F7PG-20170323.html

So they had it by CinemaCon.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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Getting various technologies to meet the image quality requirements is harder than you think. LCD is miserable for color stability and the panels die very easily in the heat. There is more to the DCI projectors than just the security that is in them.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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As for HDCP security, screw-THAT! What an abomination that crap is. HDCP is the bane of any A/V installer's project...it hiccups way too easily. Generally, if you have the KDMs, the DCinema security doesn't get in the way too much with the KDMs themselves being the big PITA.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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Again, you'd find that the likes of Panasonic would not see the minuscule cinema market very lucrative. They, like Samsung could view it, though, as a prestige for selling consumer sets.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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As for making a film projector, it is easier than you think, particularly if you take a Christie approach and just use belts and pulleys but even with gears, it isn't rocket science.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Obviously, you have absolutely no clue at all what it takes to become a DCI certified supplier and what kind of security implementations are required to meet the specs.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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If you think delivering a system that pleases the content industry is easy, name one manufacturer who currently will deliver a LED wall system that's HDCP 2.2 compliant for example?

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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So, there's a megaton of shit out there and that's why we should just accept shit as the new standard?

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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The point is, and I'm sure you're able to understand it, since even I do: If I want to build a new LED screen with a native AR of 2.35, because as you mentioned yourself, most new big budget releases are in that aspect ratio, I'm already in a pretty interesting situation. Because what will I choose as my native resolution? Will I choose 4096 × 1716? That would result in all movies presented in flat to be scaled. Will I choose 5066x2160 or something close to that resolution? In that case, all scope movies would need to be scaled.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Like you already mentioned yourself, most movies are already shot in a resolution higher than 4K. I can assure you, post processing and special effects are now also commonly done in 4K for any big name Hollywood production. Even many independents are already using 4K as the norm.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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The re-release of existing titles on UHD Blu-Ray is an entirely different thing. In many cases those UHD releases are mere cash grabs, where they just took a 2K or FullHD master and applied some filters on it and called it a day. Those aren't the reference standard for new productions though.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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"Overglow" doesn't work well with dark scenes and that's were your problems start to manifest.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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The problem is simply the large dark space between the individual pixels in most models. The simplest solution to this problem I've seen is a diffuser in front of the LED wall, which helps to eliminate those dark spots at the cost of some brightness. Some studios also have started to use those diffusers, in order to avoid moire patterns for close-up shots with LED walls in the background.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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First, DCinema is NOT a lucrative market. For many it is a prestige market. There are about 150,000 screens in the WORLD. If you cut the pie up to just 4 suppliers you are down to 37,500 units. That is not a very appetizing number for a lot of manufacturers. And that isn't annual sales either! Exhibitors would like to get better than 10-years, preferably, forever. Annual sales (due to new-builds and attrition) are going to be in the 3-4 digit range unless you take some of your competitor's piece of the pie.

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quote: Scott Jentsch

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I could see this screen working for drive-ins, if the price was reasonable for them.

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quote: Scott Jentsch

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Let's get rid of poor contrast due to 3D-friendly silver screens. Let's get rid of images that smile because the projectors aren't lined up properly with the screen. Let's get rid of blurry/soft images because someone didn't clean the port glass, used the wrong port glass, put an HVAC outlet in the path of the image causing heat waves, etc.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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Obviously you have no clue about the engineering capabilities of companies like Daktronics. Hell, Barco has been making LED jumbotron displays for years and they're one of the few companies who make d-cinema projectors. They're just not nearly as dominant as Daktronics in that jumbotron market.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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That's a stupid question. We're talking about a product that's a freaking prototype. And then you're showing off your lack of knowledge about LED technology, going on and on as if it's just impossible for these companies to ever bring something to market. I've been working closely with this stuff for the past 20 years, watching the technology mature. The pace of improvement has been pretty rapid the past few years.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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You're trying to characterize a fixed resolution LED screen as something worse than what's in a d-cinema projector. News flash: every "digital" display currently being manufactured has a fixed, native resolution. The chips in d-cinema projectors have only one native resolution. All other digital projectors currently being sold have one fixed resolution. Flat screen TV sets and computer monitors all have only one native resolution.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The answer is you choose whether the screen will be 2K or 4K and then build it as 2048 X 1080 or 4096 X 2160 -the same overall resolution as the chips in d-cinema projectors. And that's if the people mandating standards want to stick with the current standard, which very much favors common width screens.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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I strongly doubt that, judging by just how few movies are finished in 4K. You can't assume just because a movie production has the latest Arri or Red cameras on set that they're shooting at the camera's max resolution. Plenty of them still shoot at only 2K. Most CGI and digital intermediates are still rendered at only 2K, even if they had a 6K or 8K camera on the set. Rendering only 2K is much faster and cheaper. The production can fart around making changes closer to the last minute with 2K. And considering the movie will be on home video only 90 days after the theatrical debut, why bother wasting all that money rendering 4K?

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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Even if Hollywood actually embraced higher resolution production, like native 6K, 8K or higher, a LED-based panel seems more likely to be able to show off that resolution than a digital projector. I keep looking, but there appears to be no plans at all for d-cinema projector manufacturers to go beyond the 4K level. No one is going to spend countless millions or even billions of dollars creating a new breed of DLP chips that deliver native 6K or 8K resolution.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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Um, NO. Screw sticking anything in front of a LED panel. Doing that would harm color fidelity and contrast. And then there's an issue of ventilation. Most conventional LED panels are ventilation through the front and back.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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TV productions that install LED boards on their sets have to spend extra for higher resolution panels to combat moiré from showing up in the background. They can also use depth of field, separating a person they're photographing from the LED board in the background. That gets rid of moiré in the image too.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Unfortunately, every technology has their own annoying failure modes if not taken care of. Digital cinema has theirs and LED walls can be plagued by broken modules, which will be much more annoying than a stuck sub-pixel. No technology is proof to willing neglect.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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I don't doubt the engineering capabilities of those companies. Like both I and Steve in his own way already put forward: DCI is a considerable niche market.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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I'm not doubting the engineering capabilities of those companies. I'm only indicating what kind of priorities can be expected from those companies. We've all seen this technology mature over the years. And it's not a stupid question. You know why you don't see HDCP 2.2 just yet? Because it is a pain to implement and for most manufacturers it's too much of a niche. How often will somebody use such a screen for content that requires HDCP 2.2? I'm pretty sure it will eventually arrive, but it is not a priority.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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There is no doubt that you will still be able to see pixels even in a fully DCI compliant 4K theater, once you sit close enough to the screen or once the screen reaches a certain size compared to the room.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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So, there it goes, the possibility to build a screen in whatever aspect ratio you please?

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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We're talking about production companies that spend millions and millions of dollars on a single feature. Most recent big-budget productions also already employ HDR (mostly Dolby Vision). But they're not producing 4K releases targeted at the cinematic release, but because 4K is the new norm at home.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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The LEDs themselves don't really put out a great deal of heat on their own

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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If some idiot slings a huge cup of soda at a regular movie screen the resulting stains might required replacement of the entire screen.

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