Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Datasat Digital Entertainment acquired by ATI

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Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 07-31-2017, 10:17 PM:

Datasat's primary business now is high-end home theatre processors and amplifiers, but since they are still marketing the AP20 cinema processor this might be of interest:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Amplifier Technologies Inc. (ATI) Announces the Acquisition of Datasat Digital Entertainment (DDE)
Datasat Digital Entertainment (DDE) acquisition adds to the core strength of Amplifier Technologies Inc. (ATI) amplification and audio processing products to provide complete audio solutions for Consumer and Professional Cinemas worldwide
MONTEBELLO, CA JULY 31, 2017
ATI, a leading designer and manufacturer of high-performance audio amplifiers and processing products, today announced the acquisition of Datasat Digital Entertainment (DDE). Now, Datasat high-end audio processing and audio amplification products will be added to ATI’s lineup to provide consumers, professional cinemas, installers and audio designers with tremendous flexibility, power, and feature-rich products for today’s advanced audio and cinema applications.
“Datasat Digital Entertainment (DDE) products are well known and considered by many to be one of the leading audio processing technologies in the world,” states Morris Kessler, owner and chief designer at ATI. “The addition of Datasat and their renowned software engineering to our extensive hardware capability and existing lines including ATI, Theta Digital and BGW will provide consumers and professional exhibitors all over the world with the highest quality audio in feature-rich and flexible configurations for any audio application.”
“We are pleased to see Datasat joining the ATI family,” says Robert McKinley, EVP of Operations at Datasat Digital Entertainment. “There’s a great deal of synergy between the companies already but the combined sales, engineering and operations teams will now work hand in hand to provide continuity with our current product offering while simultaneously moving exciting new initiatives forward to better serve and support the marketplace. This is a great opportunity for anyone that values the highest quality, most reliable audio products available.”
Datasat products will continue to be sold under the Datasat Digital Entertainment brand and manufactured by ATI in its plant in Montebello, California, USA as well as its existing manufacturer in Moorpark, California.
In September, ATI and Datasat will demonstrate the power of the combined brands during demonstrations around the CEDIA 2017 show floor and in booths that will showcase each brand’s offerings and the way technology professionals can integrate them into their client’s systems to boost performance and deliver an immersive and impressive entertainment experience. ATI, Theta, BGW and Datasat can be found in booth #3335. Datasat products will also be used to drive demonstrations by PMC at Sound Room 13, RBH at Sound Room 3 and at the Dynaudio suite. Additional events will be announced as the companies finalize plans.

About Amplifier Technologies
Amplifier Technologies was founded in 1993 by legendary amp designer Morris Kessler. With over 50 years in the audio manufacturing industry Morris has guided Amplifier Technologies to become one of the leading amplifier and audio equipment design and manufacturing companies in the world.
Featuring the ATi, BGW and Theta Digital brands Amplifier Technologies has provided high quality, reliable, state of the art audio products in consumer and professional installations around the globe. Over the last 20+ years Amplifier Technologies has received numerous accolades and critical acclaim for its products from industry publications and leading industry professionals.
Amplifier Technologies also provides OEM solutions and products that are custom designed for many well known audio companies. The wide range of Audio Technology products features High Quality, High Performance and Excellent Value in every design. All Amplifier Technologies products are designed and built out of its factory located in Montebello CA USA. To learn more about Amplifier Technologies, visit http://www.ati-amp.com, https://www.bgw.com and http://thetadigital.com

About Datasat Digital Entertainment
Datasat Digital Entertainment (formerly DTS Digital Cinema, an Academy Award™ winner for the design and development of the DTS digital sound system for motion picture exhibition) is the leader in audio processing technologies for high-end home audio and professional cinemas. Pioneering digital audio delivery in professional cinema since 1993, Datasat has provided cutting edge and forward thinking technologies for the last 20 years featuring global distribution, engineering and support headquartered in Los Angeles.
Datasat equipment has been installed at the heart of over 30,000 cinemas worldwide and Datasat products and technologies have been chosen around the world as the reference standard for high-end two-channel music, multi-channel music and multi-channel movie soundtrack digital audio products. Datasat provides quality, reliable, flexible and feature rich products for a true listening experience. To learn more, visit http://www.datasatdigital.com

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-01-2017, 10:00 AM:

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-02-2017, 01:50 AM:

I'm wondering what this will mean for the future of Datasat Digital regarding the professional cinema market.

Currently, the only product on offer in this segment is the AP20. And while this is a good processor and a pretty strong alternative to a CP750 in any DCI environment, it is slowly starting to lack features regarding modern MDA formats.

I'd expected Datasat Digital to jump on the DTS:X / OpenMDA train, unfortunately, neither the AP20 did get an upgrade, nor were there any new products released in this regards.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-02-2017, 09:54 AM:

Now would be an opportune time to negotiate with DTS for the use of the DTS trademark, ideally as a royalty-free license. The theatrical business -- to the extent it exists -- benefits from the use of the original name. The home media business benefits from the cachet of being associated with theatrical. Win win.

Posted by Sebastian Binz (Member # 4567) on 09-17-2017, 03:30 PM:

We ordered an AP20 back in July about a week before the acquisition was announced. So far our integrator has not been able to get hold of Datasat/ATI to fix a shipping date.
It appears there is no communication possible with Datasat for the time being and it is completely unknown whether we will ever get an AP20 delivered.

Does anyone have information on the future of Datasat?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-17-2017, 04:51 PM:

You really ought to look into the Ovation Processor instead!! Their rep that lives in Great Britain will come train you on installing them.

https://www.trinnov.com/products/digital-cinema/ovation/?lang=en_us

Mark

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-17-2017, 07:00 PM:

Has your integrator tried to contact ATI directly? Maybe they can forward them to the right person within Datasat Digital Entertainment.

To be honest, in the current situation, I'd be a bit hesitant to acquire new hardware from Datasat Digital Entertainment. They've been a reliable company up until now, but I don't think ATI has any affinity with the cinema business.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 09-17-2017, 09:29 PM:

ATI owns BGW, so they do have a connection to the cinema business.

Sebastian - I haven't worked at Datasat for awhile now, but I know some of the people there. I am forwarding them your post in hopes of getting some traction for you.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-17-2017, 10:32 PM:

The other issue here is spares. Agreed with Marcel that the AP20 is a decent machine, and with the 16-channel and H.338 film sound expansion cards added, is an extremely versatile solution for arthouse/rep venues that need to do DCI, plus film, plus other alternative content sources involving combinations of analog, consumer digital (TOSlink/SPDIF) and professional AES digital.

However, the power supply units are its Achilles' heel. I and almost everyone I've met who has used or serviced these units for any significant length of time have had at least one fail on them. Complicating the matter even further is that they have a 15v bus rather than the more common 12v one, meaning that you can't use a regular PC power supply as a replacement, even in an emergency, get-out-of-trouble situation. Therefore, I would not want to install an AP20 anywhere without being able to feel confident that replacement PSUs will continue to be available, and for any that are in the field, I'd be advising their owners either to look at replacing them, or to buy and store at least one spare PSU, and probably more than one.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-18-2017, 04:39 AM:

quote: Daniel Schulz
ATI owns BGW, so they do have a connection to the cinema business.

Maybe it's best they market the AP20 under the BGW brand and merge their pro-consumer processors with the ATI brand? The Datasat brand name has been a pretty confusing one, especially because Datasat Communications uses not only the same name, but the same logo.

As for the immersive sound systems synchronization with DTS time code. The DTS time code used to be under a license, but I guess those patents must have been expired by now? So in essence, if somebody really wanted, they could use this time code track with their own readers, if they really wanted to put in the necessary efforts.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-18-2017, 09:17 AM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
The other issue here is spares.

The AP20 shares most components with the high end home cinema RS20i,

http://www.datasatdigital.com/consumer/products/rs20i.php

so I guess spares are not a real problem. Also, the power supply is OEM, and can be found elsewhere. Yes, I would definitely want to have a spare on site now...

Unfortunately, there is still not other CP around with the AP20 feature set. There is literally no special event here where I do not make use of it's interactive setup capabilities and great I/O flexibility. I hope it will stay with us as long as possible.

- Carsten

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-18-2017, 04:15 PM:

Sebastian, that's been the case here too. They appear to have just disappeared.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-19-2017, 11:05 AM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
Unfortunately, there is still not other CP around with the AP20 feature set.

The Trinnov is actually a better CP and they are also open to the idea to making more options available.

quote: Pete Naples
Sebastian, that's been the case here too. They appear to have just disappeared.

Probably for the better! It was always a wishy washy operation... And if you thought that Datasat was wishy washy wait till you get to deal with ATI!

Posted by Lonny Jennings (Member # 365) on 09-19-2017, 05:34 PM:

I've installed a few AP20s in the last couple of years. Most have continued to chug along without any attention for ~5 years now but, I don't have any faith that they'll be supported by whoever owns the name now. I hope I'm wrong as who would want to tell a customer they have to replace the whole unit because something small failed?

Although it doesn't have nearly the same capability as the AP20 I have installed a QSC DPM-H processor. All of my customers need HDMI decoding from any source/disc and the QSC does a nice job of it. Of course, I have many more HDMI sources than the one input on the QSC so I use an HDMI switch ahead of the DPM but, the combination works reliably so far.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-19-2017, 06:40 PM:

So Mark, are you shilling for Trinnov now? While the Trinnov product may or may not have sonic improvements over the AP20, what most people I talk to about the AP20 like is the AP20's flexibility. That it is a matrix processor with many input/output possibilities. This is something that the Trinnov product does not have. It isn't a dig at Trinnov but an example where your suggestion is non-sequitur. For instance, Lonny just brought up that he is using the QSC DPM-H processor because it has an HDMI input to decode video-audio. The AP20 has that and a mini switcher for it to boot. It decodes both DTS (up to lossless Master Audio) and Dolby (up to AC3).

You may like the Trinnov Ovation a lot but that doesn't make it a direct replacement to an AP20 user.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-19-2017, 08:17 PM:

I honestly don't know anyone that has that much use for HDMI in my chain of customers other than just a single input for ads. Just about everyone is using the DVI-D input on the legacy module and either coax or analog non-sync on the processor.

I'd have to look at the DPM-H processor, possibly try one somewhere before I could decide. I was not enamored by the DCP 200 and 300 which I put in a few of. Oh, it's pretty good sounding, but has the most bizarre menu structure.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-19-2017, 08:32 PM:

Well the NEC 900 and 1000 do not have a legacy board so the only external input into the machine is via the HDMI on the IMS

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-20-2017, 02:10 AM:

The strength of the AP20 is obviously the large diversity of inputs and outputs. As an audio matrix switcher, it's a pretty affordable machine, compared to the alternatives. If you're running just a "simple" multiplex operation, where most of your screens never see anything else than movies, then simply drop in a CP750 and be done with it.

I'm hoping QSC will improve their pricing on the Q-Sys platform, because it can essentially do anything the AP20 can and more. The only advantage of the AP20 is that it's a out-of-the-box solution which doesn't need a lot of configuration to work in most cinema settings.

For a single screen setup, a Q-Sys implementation is simply too expensive. It's usually not the Core that's the problem, but if you add the interfaces and the hours needed to get the same functionality out of it as for a similar AP20 setup, then it's currently way more expensive.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-20-2017, 03:36 PM:

Well the NEC 900 and 1000 do not have a legacy board so the only external input into the machine is via the HDMI on the IMS.

I have 900's that have legacy boards in them feeding from old Dolbly's, and 900's with SX-3000's and both work just fine. If you have a legacy you simply use the DVI-D input of which there are two, and on the SX-3000 you use the HDMI input and automate it with the rest of the stuff.
I can't ever remember a request to have more than one accessory input available and that's out of 334 screens! Most theater owners just want to run simple pre-show ads to generate more pocketable cash flow.

Mark

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 09-20-2017, 04:04 PM:

The AP20 is not for the average cinema, but for places where you run a lot of sources. Art houses, screening rooms, film festivals, etc.

Perhaps none of Marks cinemas do these difficult balancing acts?

In the big city, we do this all the time.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-20-2017, 04:35 PM:

No one that comes to mind, and a few places actually do run local film fests, but they convert it all to DCP and just put it on the server. Ahhhh, the advantages of working small town America!! Everyone has either JSD-100's or JSD-60's, GDC and NEC. Makes life very easy.

Mark

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-20-2017, 07:31 PM:

Is there any cinema audio processor still being manufactured new and on the market, besides the AP20 with the H338 card, that includes a 35mm optical analog preamp?

There are still boatloads of lightly used and viable CP650s on the market, which makes this a viable option both for new 35mm installs and for replacing failed processors. But if, for whatever reason, you decide that you need a new one (e.g. for a grant funded project with rules that stipulate that only new equipment can be used, or because you want a product that is still actively supported by the OEM), is there any other option besides the AP20? I don't know of any.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 09-20-2017, 07:38 PM:

I think you can still get the Ultra Stereo JSD-80 which has 35mm optical inputs. Design wise it is a pretty old unit.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 09-20-2017, 11:29 PM:

BACP bought up the last of the CP650's and spare boards both for sale and parts support so there is that option. Still the best implementation of a cinema processor that supports 2 projector film and digital.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-21-2017, 06:23 AM:

I think the JSD-80 is no longer available. Second hand, yes, certainly.

The QSC DPM-100H is a fairly recent device. I guess USL would have been interested in developing a new processor with more HDMI connectivity, but now that they are part of QSC, I guess that won't happen for a while with the DPM-100H just released.

There are probably more chances that Trinnov upgrades the Ovation with some HDMI features. Of course you could always utilize an external HDMI switcher, but the decoding still needs to be done in the processor.
But then, what tells us that the Ovation will stay with us much longer than an AP20...

The CP750 is a bit like VHS, cheap, but forever...

- Carsten

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-21-2017, 08:23 AM:

Looks as if ATI and Datasat Digital Entertainment just attended CEDIA 2017:

http://www.google.de/search?q=cedia+2017+ATI+datasat

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-21-2017, 09:05 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Just about everyone is using the DVI-D input on the legacy module and either coax or analog non-sync on the processor.

So let me get this straight. You pony up the Trinnov processor as a replacement to the AP20. The Trinnov Ovation is known for its advanced sonic processing (Acoustic Optimization), something that the AP20 also is known for (Dirac, though not the same thing is also something other, possibly superior than simple EQ) even though the Ovation lacks another key feature of the AP20, the matrix input outputs in both digital as well analog audio. Furthermore, the Ovation lacks HDMI inputs, thereby negating the best audio that alternative content has to offer.

Instead, because you lack the goods, you throw out that "your" customers use lame 2-channel for their Blu-rays or other similar sources like analog stereo via non-sync or perhaps the coax input to get a 2:4 matrix decode. As they say, garbage in, garbage out.

Again, I'm not picking on the Ovation for what it does or doesn't do, here. It is just not a substitute for the AP20 to the typical AP20 user. Now, if you were to boast the Ovation as an alternative to the CP750, JSD60, JSD100, then you could discuss the merits of its processing/features as compared to the others.

If the sole purpose of your customers needing the DVI/HDMI inputs is for ads, then sure, the audio part need be no better than stereo, at the moment, because that is about all that content providers place on the ads, from what I can tell. But once you bring in DVDs and Blu-rays or even over-the-air stuff, as most of my customers do, then you need to address multi-channel discrete audio in a 5.1/7.1 configuration (and Atmos for those so equipped).

What a processor, like the DPM-H provides is an HDMI input that does address those concerns in a rather basic processor, otherwise. It is only 2U but even that is not a replacement to the AP20, for the typical AP20 user. Having up to 16-channels in/out PLUS multiple HDMI inputs, oh and if you still are maintaining film, then there is a film head-end in there too! It packs quite a bit in a pre-built package.

I honestly think that the future of the AP20 type processor is going to be in the DSP world rather than a canned solution. Take a QSYS 110f. It is less than half the price of an AP20 and can be a 16x8 processor out of the box or an 8x16 and is expandable (it is a core, after all). And yes, you have to configure it but once you have your templates, you don't have to recreate that work each time. You can create your own UI and implement that as you see fit. Again, something you don't have to start from square-1 each time. This is more like the CP200 model of last century where yes, it did the essential things but you could expand it. Back then expansion meant hardware. Now it is likely a combination of hardware and software.

I think Lonny had an excellent idea of creating a QSYS repository for UI and designs. If nothing else, that would give folks a starting point or ideas of what can be done. Some have already posted screen shots of their designs and they are most impressive. That is where I think the future of the AP20 type user will be.

If you need film, then add in a CP650 or other cinema processor as a source. That is already what we are doing for our film customers. Why tie down a digital system by forcing it through 20th century technology and restrictions?

I still think there is a place for "canned" solutions but I suspect that people that want flexibility, will want more flexibility and DSP has that, though typically less longevity.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-21-2017, 11:37 AM:

Steve,

If all the bells and whistles the AP-20 affords were truly needed by all in the industry then they would be going in everywhere and Datasat would have not had the hard struggle and ultimate sellout to a non-cinema electronics company we just witnessed. Indeed in all of my situations the Ovation is all that is needed. And it does represent a significant sonic step up from the rest of the mainstream processors, and it's also not a lot of money to purchase.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-21-2017, 12:53 PM:

Mark, you miss the point. Nobody was saying that the AP20 was required for all installations anymore than the CP200 was required for all installations, in its day. The AP20 catered to the more complex systems.

Most of our systems are CP750s because, quite frankly, that is all the customer wanted/needed and they have done exceedingly well for us. They are not in our more complex systems because they would require much more overhead to "fit" stuff through it. We have used QSC's DCP products in some locations because it has quite a few inputs/outputs available, plus it handles the crossover and booth monitor functions all in one box. It has a six channel input (handy for legacy film processors to connect to), an 8-channel input (handy for Blu-ray or other video), S/PDIF (though no decoding aside from 2:4), handy for the laptop type input and then a whole Cobranet layer, though dated now, provides a means to get many other sources in/out, even at a distance. I agree it is a wanting UI and the -80 - +10dB fader thing is wrong for a multi-turn knob.

As for the Ovation being pricey. It is certainly pricier than typical DCinema sound processors (CP750, JSD60) but it also provides more audio processing so there is value there. I don't think a "better mousetrap" should have to be priced like the lesser alternatives either. But that doesn't make it fit every application. Even if the client likes the Ovation sound, one would still need overhead to fit it into the system since it lacks the I/O of a typical multi-use room.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-21-2017, 02:49 PM:

Steve,

It does everything my customers would need, and has much more up to date EQ and calibration facilities. It is more price comparable although a bit more expensive than the JSD-100 which is most of what I have installed. The only extra cost are the calibration mics, but that's really a technician thing unless a plex wants their own. I only have six or perhaps eight JSD-60's out there, which I liked better for some reasons. They just came along a bit too late for the majority of the conversions... even for the drive ins, for me.

If ATI does continue the AP-20 then good luck with it and them. They sure mucked up BGW to no end.

Mark

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-23-2017, 07:30 AM:

An overseen feature of the AP20 is also that it's HDMI switcher is very reliable. In nearly 5 years we never experienced any issues with visual or audio noise, HDCP, etc. when switching sources or configuring devices. This value is probably overseen even by many AP20 users because it just works and you forget that many other devices cause the usual load of problems with HDMI. The HDMI switcher board is not made by Datasat, but is an OEM part. Nevertheless, it's a fully integrated part of the AP20, and it works extremely well.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-23-2017, 06:01 PM:

Carsten,

I think there are some nifty HDMI switches these days that cost ~100.00 that can do the same exact job. Not quite sure I agree with having video stuff in with the audio processor anyways.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-24-2017, 02:52 AM:

I wouldn't trust any $100 HDMI anything in a professional environment. If the device does not have an active EDID and HDCP solution that prevents the source from having to re-handshake with the projector, you WILL have issues, sooner or later.

Part of what makes the HDMI switcher in the AP20 make sense is that it extracts the audio, right there. By using an external switcher you have to get three devices all together, the projector, the switcher and the audio processor. By putting the HDMI switcher there, you've removed one device entirely. If the audio processor is in a state of failure, you weren't going to have your show anyway so there is no extra risk associated with it.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-24-2017, 03:41 AM:

Here we try to avoid HDMI, which is after all a domestic format, in the professional environment altogether.

For example, alternative content distributed from a central rack will be converted to HDSDI after HDCP etc has been dealt with and audio embedded. HD-SDI distro is relatively cheap, the cabling is cheap and simple to install as is audio de-embedding at the destination end. Obviously picture is sent straight to the projector. Most importantly is that HD-SDI is reliable.
Said rack often will house TMS plus alt-con equipment, a couple of satellite receiver/decoders or a Lansat unit and maybe a Bluray deck and a scaler/switcher (although we try to avoid Bluray too for the same reasons, generally anything to be screened from Bluray gets ripped and converted to DCP).

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-24-2017, 09:04 AM:

I've done some automated HDMI switching and audio/video splitting on the cheap (< $1K), using ATEN HDMI switchers with serial port, a HD Fury Integral, some DR. HDMI devices to fix the inevitable EDID and HDCP mess. And yes, it works, without any nasty clicks in the audio and issue-free transitions between the video sources.

But damn, it's ugly. It's all non-19" rack mountable equipment, you have those floppy HDMI wires running everywhere connected to a bunch of dongle-type devices, together with a whole bunch of those shitty plug-in type PSUs filling up your PDU.

You get all this, integrated into your sound processor, part of a neatly 19" rack mountable box as part of an AP20.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-24-2017, 01:26 PM:

Couldn't agree more with this, especially after an experience last week. I did a PM on a Barco DP4K-32B with an Alchemy, in the course of which I updated the software in both the projector and the ICMP (both were really old: the projector was on 1.3.something, and the Alchemy was on 1.2.4). Two days later, the customer demanded a refund on the service call, because the projector had frozen during a show, causing him to claim that the software update "had made HDMI totally unreliable."

The following day I went to the site and tried to reproduce the fault. It turned out that the show in which he'd experienced problems was being done with a $100, consumer grade BD player hooked directly to the Alchemy via a long (probably 30 feet) HDMI cable. He no longer had the disc used for the show, because the owner had taken it immediately afterwards. So we tried another one that was in the booth (the playing surface was covered in fingerprints and scratches, and he wouldn't have cleaned it before inserting it if I hadn't).

It turned out that the problem probably happened because he paused the disc in the middle of the program for an intermission, the player went to sleep after a timeout, and this caused the ICMP to lock up. The projector froze and became totally unresponsive, requiring a cold reboot to wake it up. Barco looked at the logs and saw that it got into an endless loop trying to sync to a nonexistent HDMI signal after the BD player went into hibernation. While this shouldn't have totally locked up the projector (which they're investigating further), Barco told me that this wasn't caused by the software update, and would almost certainly have happened with the old software still installed. In fact, if they'd have seen in the log that the old software was still there, they would immediately have told me to update it. The timing of the software update was coincidental, but of course it's totally understandable that the end user didn't see it that way.

The takeaway from this is that end users, especially in arthouse and multi-use type venues, expect HDMI to be 100% reliable in a professional a/v environment using consumer equipment, because if a BD player works reliably with the $200 flatscreen in your living room, why wouldn't it when hooked to a $200k d-cinema projector in a theater? The answer is that if you have to turn the TV in your living room off and then on again in order to restart your movie after getting up to use the bathroom, it's no big deal, it happens all the time, and no-one remembers having to do that. But if the same thing happens in a movie theater with 400 paying customers wondering what's going on, that's a bigger deal and you will remember it.

So yes, anyone with even a basic knowledge of HDMI's shortcomings would not dream of using a setup like the one I encountered for a professional presentation, and would at the very least use a scaler/switcher that deals with the HDCP and EDID handshaking risks, and very likely converts the video to HD-SDI for onward transmission to the projector. But there are theater staff out there who do not have that basic knowledge, and expect simple HDMI connections involving consumer grade equipment to work reliably when doing a task for which they were not designed.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-24-2017, 02:18 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I wouldn't trust any $100 HDMI anything in a professional environment.

Well, there are also more expensive, professional ones available if that suits the budget better. You can spend a hundred dollars or two thousand dollars on an HDMI switcher if you want to. But I still would not want that built into the cinema processor, it's not even a professional video signal format!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-24-2017, 04:46 PM:

Professional or not, it is being used professionally (before paying customers). HDMI is also used a bit in Broadcast now too...but I digress.

If you use a switcher system that manages EDID as well as HDCP such that the switcher is a sink and source, your HDMI problems drop to practically zero because everyone is a direct connection, no "repeaters." But those devices are not in the $100 range.

As for the sound processor being the switcher...if it is a good switcher, why not? If it is a bad one, I agree.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-24-2017, 05:47 PM:

I agree with Steve on this. Unfortunately, exhibitors expect to be able to leverage HDMI as an easy access for alternative content. Whether it is the occasional Blu-Ray, some business presentation, some live-streamed event or whatnot. You cannot always expect everybody to show up with a perfectly made DCP.

What if they would show up with HD-SDI, would that really make things simpler? If the whole world would have embraced HD-SDI instead of HDMI, wouldn't you think HD-SDI would have the same problems as HDMI?

The friction-based HDMI connector might be cheap and a burden in professional, high duty setups, but HDMI itself is not really the problem, it's just another digital interconnect. The problem is mostly in the way it has been implemented. Most implementations are simply riddled with bugs, but before they are getting fixed, the stuff usually is already replaced with new stuff, with new bugs. Part of the trouble is to blame by the requirement to encrypt everything end-to-end, the other part on the simple fact that the world moves so fast, it simply doesn't take the time necessary to perfect things.

Another often forgotten feature of the AP20, is that it can serve as a standalone "automation deck" and control device. You can define macros and assign them to buttons. So, if you're running a show with alternate content, it can essentially take much of the functionality of your server or IMS.

And you can argue whether or not this should be the function of an Audio Processor, but you'd need a bunch of other devices to implement this or similar functionality.

So, the AP20 is (or was?) pretty much a Swiss army knife for theaters that did more than just movies and needed flexibility on their inputs and outputs. It solves most or all of their requirements in a single box. And while you obviously can replace all of them with other solutions, it still makes the AP20 a fine, uncluttered single-box solution.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-26-2017, 05:14 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
HDMI is also used a bit in Broadcast now too...but I digress.

It's not going to be found on any professional piece of broadcast equipment. You may find it on some lesser camcorders that broadcast people use at dangerous locations because they can be considered throw away if something happens to it. You won't find it in any edit suite or on any piece of gear in the broadcast chain itself. Plus on a large scale right now it's generally only 8 bits, and only very recently does it support 10 or 12 bit data.

Mark

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-28-2017, 03:44 AM:

I concur, the RED WEAPON 8K S35 is one of those lesser cameras. [Smile]

To the defense of RED, it is officially called a "monitor port". (And only morons would use RED cameras to for live broadcasting.)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-28-2017, 06:52 AM:

Mark, you'll find the HDMI port on numerous Broadcast gear now.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-28-2017, 09:02 AM:

Yes, and it's not surprising. This industry is moving so fast, it's hard to keep up. You'll see an ever growing convergence between the "Pro" and "Consumer" market, which doesn't need to be bad, as long as it works as expected.

HDMI 2.0a offers up to 18 Gbit/s while 12G-SDI only offers 12 GBit/s and 24G-SDI isn't even a thing yet. Also, HDMI interfaces, even the high-end ones are far cheaper than SDI. So, for short legs, HDMI has some strong selling points.

DisplayPort has a version that can be fixed with a screw, there doesn't seem to be a standardized locking mechanism for HDMI. That's my biggest gripe with HDMI from a mechanical standpoint, those cables tend to slip out, especially if you're working with gear in flight cases that tend to get shipped around a lot.

The other one is the lack of simplicity, compared to *-SDI. The auto-negotiation part of HDMI should make it a plug-and-play experience, but sloppy implementations cause a lot of headaches.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-28-2017, 12:29 PM:

A big plus in SDI's favor is that the cable can be made in the field with a high degree of reliability. I'm all for SDI but I note I see a lot of TMDS (includes HDMI, Display Port and DVI) type connectors in Broadcast now.

As for locking HDMI connectors. "Perfect Path" has had high-friction connectors for some time now.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-28-2017, 02:33 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
What if they would show up with HD-SDI, would that really make things simpler? If the whole world would have embraced HD-SDI instead of HDMI, wouldn't you think HD-SDI would have the same problems as HDMI?

I would guess no, since it doesn't require a two-way handshake, does not have HDCP, and does not have the cable length limits of HDMI.

What broadcast equipment uses HDMI, other than cheap monitors and devices that output to monitors? In any case, DVI is really a better choice than HDMI because the connector is more durable, if nothing else.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-28-2017, 04:14 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
What broadcast equipment uses HDMI, other than cheap monitors and devices that output to monitors?

I guess that depends on your personal definition of 'broadcast'. Google for 'HDMI BROADCAST' and you will naturally find quite a few. Admittedly, every broadcast engineer would try to avoid HDMI if there is a choice for more robust interfacing. But you can't avoid it completely. And so we are seeing better gear to deal with HDMI in pro environments, EDID maintainers and range extenders probably being the first in this line.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/teranex

https://www.aja.com/family/ki-pro

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-28-2017, 07:01 PM:

I myself don't nor would you find any knowledgeable broadcast engineer that would consider either of those brands to be broadcast worthy. Both companies make poor man's version of much more expensive broadcast and film making gear.

Mark

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-28-2017, 09:26 PM:

The term "broadcast standard" or "broadcast quality" is in such widespread use that there is nothing even close to a universally understood definition. In many cases, the phrase is used in the marketing of high end consumer gear in order to claim that it is in some way "better" than cheaper competitors in the same market sector, in order to persuade the gullible to pay more for it. My favorite example of this is gold-plated, and/or fancy fabric covered HDMI wires that are sold for $50-100 each in elaborate packaging, adorned with claims that it'll give you a better picture and sound. It's digital, right? Either the ones and zeros will make it through the wire, or they won't. Try telling the people who buy these things that a $3.99 Amazon Basics one will do just as well, and the look on their faces will be priceless.

Same thing in the analog domain. I remember back in the 1990s giving a booth tour to a hi-fi nerd who wouldn't stop going on about his phono cartridge that cost five figures, etc. etc. He asked me what we used for speaker wire, to which I replied that it was regular, 13-amp (this was in England) mains cable. He couldn't have looked more horrified if I'd just told him that I enjoyed sodomizing horses! But surely I would "realize so much more potential" from the standard issue JBL power amps and speakers if we'd installed whatever cable he used in his "listening room" at about GBP50 a foot? No we wouldn't, I replied, and engineers who have investigated this very thoroughly concluded that these cables would deliver a minuscule audio quality gain (if any) for about 100x the price of the stuff we used.

And broadcasting itself can range from the small, volunteer run operation within my church to live stream its services (which uses plenty of HDMI connections) to NBC and Fox News, which probably wouldn't even buy a blank videotape or memory card that costs less than three figures.

The bottom line is that HDMI is fundamentally a consumer technology, the use of which, just like it did with 16mm, has crept into lower budget professional a/v operations over the years. I'm not sure that trying to define what "broadcast" means as an adjective to describe a/v gear is either possible or helpful.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-29-2017, 03:55 AM:

The term "broadcast grade" is as flexible as "enterprise grade" or "production grade", it's more marketing and emotion than something with a set of outlined specifications.

My mobile phone (the Galaxy S8, not my Blackberry [Wink]

) shoots better videos than any broadcast camera of a mere 15 years ago. Yes, there are plenty of other factors to what constitutes a good broadcast camera, but I guess the point is clear.

For me, *-grade is more an indication of the expected reliability than anything else. You'll see an increased convergence of "consumer" and "pro", simply because it's the only way to keep up with the fast pace in which technology is evolving.

You need only to look at DCI. Cinema technology used to be totally disjoint from almost anything else. It didn't even come close to what you had at home. It even was so disjoint from "broadcast", the conversion between formats was an art in itself.

Nowadays, we're using essentially the same stuff everybody else does. A cinema server is nothing other than some industry standard PC hardware with some task-specific interfaces. The projectors we use are the same digital projectors everybody else uses, with the differences only in the details.

BlackMagicDesign might be a "borderline" brand, yet they bought some companies you traditionally would find in professional production environments, including broadcast. Since broadcast isn't the fairyland it used to be and budgets are becoming increasingly tight, you'll see them and other "non-broadcast" brands making their way into the broadcast market.

quote: Leo Enticknap
Same thing in the analog domain. I remember back in the 1990s giving a booth tour to a hi-fi nerd who wouldn't stop going on about his phono cartridge that cost five figures, etc. etc. He asked me what we used for speaker wire, to which I replied that it was regular, 13-amp (this was in England) mains cable. He couldn't have looked more horrified if I'd just told him that I enjoyed sodomizing horses! But surely I would "realize so much more potential" from the standard issue JBL power amps and speakers if we'd installed whatever cable he used in his "listening room" at about GBP50 a foot? No we wouldn't, I replied, and engineers who have investigated this very thoroughly concluded that these cables would deliver a minuscule audio quality gain (if any) for about 100x the price of the stuff we used.

Well, what about $1000 Ethernet cables? Although, according to this review, the Amazon Bulk Cat5e cables are more euhm... musical.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-30-2017, 12:12 PM:

The scary thing is that there enough people with more money than sense out there who are willing to swallow the placebo pill and buy them, to keep manufacturers like this in business.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-30-2017, 01:28 PM:

I don't consider it scary. Anyone who is able to spend that money on these items isn't hurt by these spendings. Whenever I talk to these people, it is fairly obvious that they WANT it like that. Anything that can be proven is suspicious. Everything that is cheap is useless. It's their religion.

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 10-03-2017, 08:24 PM:

If you happen to meet one of those audiocultists, let them tell you all about the benefits of connecting everything with cables that look like garden hoses and are more expensive per foot than an actual garden hose made from pure gold pressed latinum.

Then show them the DB25 connector on your audio processor and tell them... look, that's about 8 channels worth of ANALOG audio right there. Then tell him/her (most likely him) about the benefits of balanced interconnects. Then, indulge into your own sarcastic self, as you enjoy that look on his/her (still, most likely his) face.

Posted by Sebastian Binz (Member # 4567) on 11-01-2017, 08:32 AM:

I am happy to report that a brand new AP20 showed up last week - it only took about 3.5 months.
Apparently Datasat is still able to deliver.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 11-01-2017, 04:01 PM:

Great to know they at least still honor their commitments, though those kind of lead times are pretty much killing. Let's hope it was a temporary thing due to the change of management.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-19-2018, 02:57 PM:

A few days ago, a new software version for the AP20 went live. So, it looks as if there are people working still/again on it...

Meanwhile, the datasatdigital website at least refers to ATI now.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-19-2018, 03:33 PM:

I spoke with Dan Taylor at ICTA this week. It would appear that the Datasat brand is indeed going to be back in business. The AP20 badge will be retired in favor of the AP25. There is a distinction but I forgot what it was. They are filling their backorders now (and have been doing so). The AP20/AP25 is being made in USA.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-19-2018, 04:34 PM:

Great news, thanks for the update!

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 01-20-2018, 05:46 AM:

Carsten, is there a release note for the new SW?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-20-2018, 07:12 AM:

I saw the update on our AP20, so haven't received it as a file. I emailed Datasat Support last night for release notes, let's see...

It's only a minor version number bump.

I guess the AP25 will feature 4k or HDMI2.0. A 4k HDMI switcher board was already available for some time for the AP20, so I guess they'll make that a regular product.

But maybe there is even more. ISDCF is now calling for testing early SMPTE bitstreams for object based audio, hope that ATI/Datasat sets a foot into this area as well...

- Carsten

Posted by Jonathan Jensen (Member # 5870) on 04-04-2018, 10:20 AM:

There we go...

http://www.soundassociates.co.uk/manufacturers-datasat

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-04-2018, 10:43 AM:

Dirac Live is already available for the AP20 and apparently, there are some recent AP20 revisions that feature HDMI 2.x/4K compliant input switches.

So, it's more like a re-badging of the existing, latest revision AP20. Apparently no big improvements in regards to next-gen MDA-based audio formats.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-04-2018, 11:24 AM:

Of course, Datasat hasn't updated their site yet...still showing the AP20.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-04-2018, 03:27 PM:

Well, not yet. The datasheet mentions a future AES67 capability. I don't think that will work through the standard 10/100 control port, so they will probably add that through an extension card. Remains to be seen wether the AP20/25 has the necessary computing ressources to do MDA on it's own. But maybe the AES67 extension is a hint towards an external MDA processor or something.similar.

Well, anyway, good to see they remain in the cinema market.

- Carsten

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-16-2018, 10:10 AM:

Was someone successful in contacting ATI-AMP through the support email addresses they show on their website? All I get (to all 6 addresses) is Google bounce mails, as ATI-AMPs seems to have set up their support mail as google groups, and external senders being not permitted to post to these groups. I tried both from a 'german' as well as gmail account. They may block my address because of the sender ip range, though...?

- Carsten

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-16-2018, 04:59 PM:

Carsten,

It's not your IP range.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-17-2018, 07:48 AM:

so...do you know what it is, or what's going on there? I also tried their web based contact form, also stating my problems with their published email addresses. So far, no reply...

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-17-2018, 05:18 PM:

I'm going to see Dan Taylor at Cinema Con next week, I'll be sure to mention the web site and email inconsistencies.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-17-2018, 06:22 PM:

I've also tried to contact them by mail, to no avail. While my inquiry isn't of a high priority, the fact that mail seems to bounce doesn't really inspire any confidence into their continuity.

Maybe convince him about the fact that the flakiness of their web-presence and e-mail availability isn't good for our confidence level. I guess since they've shown commitment to the cinema industry, we're still within their target audience? [Smile]

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-17-2018, 06:31 PM:

I wasn't just trying addresses related to cinema business...
If it was only ONE of their addresses, shit can happen. But ALL of them fail, even the most generic ones like 'sales@'...

I mean, wouldn't anyone else be surprised that no emails are coming in? But IF they do receive some mails, what are the rules which to accept and which to bounce?

The mechanism is managed by Google, but ATI probably sets some of these rules.

- Carsten

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-18-2018, 04:29 PM:

My attempt through the web contact form came through, and they sent me the current AP20/25 software release notes.

But Steve, I guess, just like you, many people would love to see the datasatdigital website (and content) to be relaunched under ATI-AMP, so, looking forward to hear what Dan Taylor says.
That website was defunct long before ATI took over Datasatdigital. Almost looked to me as if after a database crash they learned they lost the administration logins and no one felt inclined to reclaim them...

- Carsten

Posted by Karim Benmachiche (Member # 10647) on 01-27-2019, 05:19 PM:

Does anyone know is there are dealers for Datasat in Europe, except Cinemanext? The website does not list any dealers anymore...
Mainly interested to know about Switzerland, Germany, France and maybe Italy.

I tried to contact them directly, but it's still the same, the emails don't work, and no reply through the contact form... [Shrug]

And Carsten, I tried to pm you about it specifically for Germany, but your inbox is full [Wink]

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-27-2019, 08:30 PM:

Hi Karim,

oh,yes, unbelievable, my personal forum inbox was filled with 60 msgs...

Try again. If I was to order an A25, I would probably try CinemaNext first, as usually, they have the volume to offer good pricing (and stock service parts if they become necessary). I guess you could also order from Videocation in Munich, or any other german integrator (e.g. Cine Project). A fellow cinema operator recently received their AP25-8ch incl. filmcard from CinemaNext, so it seems that ATI can still supply the film card.

- Carsten