Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: NEC NC2000c scaled flat inside scope lens

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Posted by Gunnar Asgeirsson (Member # 3882) on 08-16-2017, 12:38 PM:

Hi,
I have always thing the switch between flat and scope are to slow on the NC2000c.

Because i generally screen video advertise on DCP before trailers start.
And the advertise are always flat no matter if the trailers and the movie itself is scope.
What i am gonna do is make a new lens preset that i am going to name for example VirtualFlat.
And i want to then let all scope shows start with the virtual flat cue instead of regular 2D Flat, that means that the lens will take its 6-10 secound to go into the regular scope lens preset but inside the scope i want to have flat images that is downscaled so it fit inside the scope preset. So i can always screen the advertise in scope lens preset but still in flat format. Then the projector wont take 10 secound to switch to regular scope since it is already in scope and the only thing that will changes is the presenting format inside the scope preset.

But i am having a little proble, i am inside the DCC (Digital Cinema Communicator) and i just have to admit that i am not really sure how to create this screen file correctly.
I know how to create screen files for correct lens preset but now i need to create downscaled flat that fit inside scope lens preset.
I dont just want to do something and hope it is correctly made [Smile]

Anyone who would like to share their experience?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-16-2017, 02:25 PM:

Two things:

1) EXPERIMENT ON AN UNUSED TITLE/PRESET

(I cannot emphasize that enough).

2) What you want to work with are two things. Use the PCF file for your normal FLAT format (e.g. DCDM_XYZ_185) because you want the projector to know it is a Flat source material. Then you will go to the settings for the screen file and adjust the "Screen Presentation" to resize the image. You only need to work with the upper-left and Lower-Left. You shouldn't need to adjust the "X" position, just the "Y" positions. My guess is that you would want to take 111 away from each (it will feel counter-intuitive to what you are doing). You also will need to make sure "Letterbox" is ticked.

When it looks the way you want it, SAVE IT UNDER A UNIQUE NAME.

If I were doing it, I would use the DLP program and then import the file via DCC into the Title but that brings up a whole new can of worms/passwords to use it. If find it more intuitive than the DCC for both masking and screen presentation settings (and loads faster).

Posted by Yuri Mamaev (Member # 6678) on 08-16-2017, 07:12 PM:

Correcting a little bit: Upper Left and Lower Right corners for presentation. On NEC please make sure, that "Image Scaler" is active, or you'll probably see no change.

And giving more info:
1. Image Scaler ON
2. Cinema path ON (don't remember you can change those on NEC in DCCS2, but on Christie it has to be enabled)
3. Presentation -> two opposite corners corners to scale down
4. Crop will have much bigger values, as you'll be cropping unseen image too
5. Scaling quality is quiet low, but it's advertisement, who cares [Wink]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-17-2017, 07:07 AM:

I don't think the DCC lets you adjust the "Y" dimension on the lower-right corner. But yes, normally (Barco, Christie, ICP app), it is the opposite corners.

Posted by Ioannis Syrogiannis (Member # 3235) on 08-17-2017, 09:12 AM:

As a semi-relevant comment, I want to add that those 10 seconds in between different lens settings (and even more, on some Series 1 projectors) seem like ages for the operators, but it usually is not for the patrons.

I double that things are more straight forward when you use the DLP tools and software, once you figure its interface out. (Find where to check for enabling resizing, for instance.)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-17-2017, 09:39 PM:

Since these are going to look so crappy when you are done why not just buy a cheap LCD projector just to run your ads from. You are completely wasting the capabilities of the NC-2000. Also, then you can go directly to your show format with no wait at all on the lens.

Mark

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-18-2017, 04:50 AM:

So, you're willing to give up resolution, contrast and brightness to save for a 10 second lens change?

Sorry, you're doing it wrong.

Do you really think a single patron will mind to wait 10 seconds for the real beef, after you probably fed him/her with 10 minutes of commercials?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-18-2017, 11:23 AM:

Exactly! But also consider that lens zoom time is determined by... A. How far the lens needs to move, and B. The actual make and part number of the lens. Some lenses take longer to go through the range than others do.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-18-2017, 11:45 AM:

NEC is the slowest of the bunch on the lens movement and the least accurate.

An argument against re-zooming the lens for ads is that with each lens movement, you create a degree of drift that adds up over time.

For ads, I'd have no problem with the scaling thing. They rarely are of any great resolution to begin with.

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-18-2017, 03:27 PM:

I have daily first-hand experience on NC2500, NC1600, NC1200 and NC3240. All of them are unbearably slow on format change (more like 40/50 seconds, certainly not 10) and more importantly, as Steve correctly pointed out, all of them WILL drift a lot. Especially the 1.2" machines.

In order to show ads (and JUST ads, no cinema content of any kind) I've done exactly what Gunnar suggested and created a "Flat on Scope" format. Couldn't care less about resolution or brightness, it's basically a glorified Powerpoint slideshow anyway.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-18-2017, 04:42 PM:

I just hope running the ads and burning a 2KW + lamp pays off. I know many of my customers that do their own ads would get complaints from their advertisers if they looked crappy.

Mark

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-18-2017, 09:46 PM:

Here, about 7% of the lamp's burn time is devoted to running the ads. If a lamp costs $1100.00, then that would be about $77.00. That's not bad and it makes the ads look good.

We run one show nightly except 2 on Fri/Sat, so I realize that figure would be higher for anyplace that runs 3 or 4 shows a day. It might not be worth the cost in lamp time.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-19-2017, 10:05 AM:

Exactly! It almost never pays to run a separate ad projector if you are footing the bill for the lamps and projector. The incremental cost of burning the xenon lamp is going to be cheaper than the cost of a suitable A/V projector and those projectors can be expensive if you get one with the long lenses needed to put the projector back in the booth.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-19-2017, 10:29 AM:

I should note that if you are signed on with a major advertiser then they should be providing funds to offset the cost of the lamp and wear/tear on your projector since they no longer need to supply one. Same for if the ads are running off of your DCP player instead of a dedicated external video player.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-21-2017, 04:13 PM:

It might be "just commercials", but you're getting paid to show them. You're not getting paid to make them look like crap.

What do you tell your advertisers? Hey, we don't give a damn?

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 08-21-2017, 04:30 PM:

Sadly, I get the impression that a lot of theatres don't give a damn about the presentation of the picture and sound for the movie so why would commercials be treated any differently.

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-21-2017, 05:32 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
It might be "just commercials", but you're getting paid to show them. You're not getting paid to make them look like crap.

Crap? Come on, it's low-bitrate 1080p material (at best) scaled to 858p and shown at the same fL as regular Scope. They still look way better than on an average HDTV, we've had several "surprise" spot checks and obviously no one ever objected.

Nitpicking has to be part of our job, but let's be realistic. Up until a few years ago they were happy to be put on screen with a 720p single-chip office projector.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-21-2017, 06:01 PM:

I don't think I'm nitpicking. I'm just pretty allergic to slippery slopes and the resulting sloppy "standards" that come from this.

Some of those advertisers or the agencies in between might not take their job serious, but it's no excuse for doing the same to them.

And really, a lot of the advertising looks like crap, not just because the often bad up-conversion from low quality 1080p or worse sources, but often simply because of how it is framed.

Look, I get where it is coming from. For most theaters, those advertisements are just a nice stream of revenue on the side, they're usually not their livelihood. Often they already care pretty little about how their main feature looks on screen, so they care nothing about how the rest looks.

Still, your advertisers most likely think differently about it. They usually expect you to make sure your patrons actually get to see them and they also expect you to make sure they get to see them properly.

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-21-2017, 06:19 PM:

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that a slight downscale of arguably average-looking material doesn't automatically result in a crappy presentation. Actually, I don't think this is even noticeable in most cases, and keep in mind it's all to compensate for projector issues that could affect the feature presentation.

In a perfect world, NEC would upgrade or fix the lens motors and control electronics to make them faster and reliable, but this is not going to happen.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2017, 09:11 PM:

The NEC's move slow by design. They are not a servo drive system like other projectors have. They actually count the pulses generated by the lens drive motor and memorize that to use for repeat settings. You could also be stuck with the stupid add on set up Christie has used or having to move the lens manually like they also used to do.

Mark

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-22-2017, 07:29 AM:

As stupid as it might look, I'd be perfectly cool with a add-on ILS if it meant it actually worked.

The problem with my 7 machines is that they somehow manage to be both slow and imprecise at the same time - I can't even get the 2500 and 3240 to stay in focus after a *single* Flat/Scope shift. It's the main reason I definitely won't be choosing NEC again when I get new projectors next year or so.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-22-2017, 09:42 AM:

I haven't got a problem with having a pause between the ads and the regular show program.

In fact, a couple-three minute gap would be ideal. It lets the customers know that the ads are over and gives them some time to get situated before the show starts.

You could also program in a nice, long fade for the house lights... like 30 seconds... so that people's eyes can adjust.

In other words, you're making much ado of nothing. Leave things just as they are. [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-22-2017, 10:07 AM:

quote: Pietro Clarici
I can't even get the 2500 and 3240 to stay in focus after a *single* Flat/Scope shift.

Seriously, I have 334 NEC's installed all over the place and I have zero problems with focus or zoom drift. I go to many of the sites, but not all, a couple ties a year and I wold see it if it were that bad. I do get calls from my customers that have wooden buildings in places like Wyoming and Idaho that have wide seasonal temperature shifts because their image slightly shifts on screen with the building expanding and contracting. I just touch that up for them remotely. But as far as focus/zoom problems they just don't exist, not even on the 30+ NC-900's I installed. NOW there WERE and PROBABLY ARE still problems with a certain brand lens whose name escapes me that also fits the NEC. I had big issues with those lenses!! I pulled them all back out and sent them back for Konica-Minolta, or Fujinon lenses. So if you have those off brand lenses and you can't exchange them you are probably stuck. But that's not NEC's fault, they neither built them or speced them. I have so few problems with the NEC's around here as to have non existant problems. Most of my problems are server(hard drives), sound or network related.

Mark

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-22-2017, 12:53 PM:

Very mild climate all year round and I'm running Konica Minolta lenses on all projectors. I bought the first 2500S in my country ten years ago dealing directly with NEC and I think I got the second or third 3240 in continental Europe in April 2011 - that was fun, it took almost a year to get stable software for it and for the awful Doremi IMB. They spent months blaming each other for every single artifact or crash.

So yes, a possible excuse is that my specific machines were very early models, but there's absolutely nothing off-brand. Of course this is just my experience, but it's enough for me to say I'm not willing to deal with them anymore.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-22-2017, 01:22 PM:

I never installed any Series 1 NEC, but there was a lot of it in Salt Lake City. I had all my customers wait till series 2 came out. I also installed some of the first 3240's here, but with GDC and had no problems with them. I did have pixel failure on the first couple light engines that necessitated replacing two engines. Other than that no issues.

Mark

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-22-2017, 08:16 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
In fact, a couple-three minute gap would be ideal. It lets the customers know that the ads are over and gives them some time to get situated before the show starts.

Not 2 or 3 minutes, but I program a 30-second gap between the ads and the trailers. If we have an unexpectedly-large crowd, the gap allows me to pause the program for a few minutes to get everyone through the concession line. I have the stage lights come back on during the gap so people aren't looking at a blank screen.

As for focus issues....our NEC projector (series 2) turned 7 years old in June of this year and as far as I know, we've never adjusted the focus. The picture is still as sharp as on day one.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-22-2017, 08:59 PM:

The lens brand you are trying to recall is "InVision" NEC DID sanction them and has their own part numbers for them. Barco uses them on their "B" series projectors a bit, including "built for 4K versions." My experience with them are mixed. They are VERY heavy and will tend to have the Barco "B" projector have a shimmering image as they magnify any vibrations, a lot with a lot of overhung weight.

As for NEC and lens stability. They are the worst, by far, of the DLPs. it is absolute BS that Mark is spewing about the NC900s holding their lens positions. They can't hit the same spot twice in a row. There isn't enough granularity in their mechanism to even precisely hit were you want.

I haven't had excessive problems with their .98" machines. They do drift and are slow at doing their business but not as bad as you are describing.

Are you initializing your lens before saving your first position?

NEC, unlike Barco or Christie, doesn't seem keep track of what direction the lens was moving when coming to rest and doesn't seem to have as good a means of initializing.