Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: HDMI EXTENDER FOR DCI PROJECTORS

This is topic HDMI EXTENDER FOR DCI PROJECTORS in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Lucas Iaccarino (Member # 8762) on 02-16-2018, 08:34 AM:

Hello!
I`m looking forward to do some events in my cinema, and the client is asking me to have a laptop next to the Screen, to be able to display some Powerpoint and things like that.
The issue is that usually, some HDMI extenders or equipment like that is not being recognized by the DCI projectors... Anyone had this trouble? how do you fix it?
Thanks!

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-16-2018, 09:14 AM:

What HDMI or DVI options do you have on the projector? If your projector is a Series 2 machine, you shouldn't have any problem, unless there is no HDMI or DVI input at all, either on the projector's own input board or the IMB/IMS.

If you have a Series 1 machine, the DVI input might not be HDCP (High Definition Multimedia Copyright Protection - an encryption/decryption link encryption designed for consumer equipment, and implemented in almost all BD players and cable boxes) compliant. This shouldn't be an issue with laptops, unless you need to play a DVD or BD actually from the laptop.

The major problem is going to be the length of the connection. Monoprice sell powered, fiber optic very long HDMI cables. I used the 150ft one once to connect a laptop to a cat745 for a Facetime-on-stage Q & A with a filmmaker who couldn't be physically present at the screening. It just about worked, but got glitchy when high bandwidth video started to go through it. Apart from a one-off show when there isn't the budget to do anything better, this sort of thing isn't a viable solution.

You'll probably need HDMI<>SDI or HDMI<>Ethernet converter boxes at either end of the link. These are far more solid and reliable for long (as in, over 30 feet or so) HDMI links, but are a lot more expensive. There are several different ones on the market. The Aja HDMI<>SDI boxes are my personal favorite, but others (e.g. AMX and Crestron) offer solutions as well.

You'll also need to make sure that the video format coming out of the laptop is supported by the input board or IMB on the projector, and that if you are using an IMB HDMI input, you create a preset in the projector that applies the correct color space for the laptop's graphics card (usually Rec.709).

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-16-2018, 10:05 AM:

For reliable operation, stick to name brands like Extron (DTP or XTP) and the various HDBaseT solutions (there are many of them out there). A BIG KEY to it is SHIELDED CAT cable. It is FAR FAR FAR more important that the CAT cable be shielded than for a higher CAT number. Shielded CAT5e beats CAT6/6A or CAT7 unshielded.

Note, the DCinema projector is only going to recognized a handful of resolutions and depending on what port (DVI or HDMI) what those resolutions are will vary. Ideally, your source can handle 1080p (always your safest resolution for DCinema). If you cannot guarantee what your source will be capable of, think of having a solution that has a scaler on the receiving end (not a separate scaler unless you plan on other A/V stuff from the booth) to ensure that the projector always sees the 1080p/60 (e.g. an Atlona 200 series receiver, even if using a lower series transmitter).

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-16-2018, 10:10 AM:

Lucas - have you checked possible cable runs from the screen to the booth? Does a CAT/Ethernet cable exist?

What type of projector will be used?

- Carsten

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-16-2018, 01:02 PM:

I have used this one many times with reliable results
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=30985

Posted by Lucas Iaccarino (Member # 8762) on 02-16-2018, 01:33 PM:

Thanks, I will try with some of them and let you know the model that worked for me.
Thanks

Posted by Bradley J Sime (Member # 9423) on 02-16-2018, 09:26 PM:

I agree with Steve in regards to the Extron box and the cable. I would also try your damndest to convince the presenter to let you fellows run the powerpoint from the booth, and have them use a blue tooth wireless clicker, if need be. That works well for us. I've found that letting the inmates run the asylum, even with a great setup, always is more trouble than it's worth.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-17-2018, 11:04 AM:

Barco Clickshare. No cables. No BS. Just works.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-17-2018, 12:19 PM:

Thanks Dave! Clickshare does indeed look quite interesting. Price wise, I'm sure it will be more than an HDBaseT system but probably less than an Extron XTP system (their better system) and probably more than an Extron DTP system.

I'm curious as to the distance it will work and how it handles going through walls to the booth and such. I see three different systems are out there but no mention as to the range. It is definitely something to look into though.

[Edit] on the individual product pages, they do list the "Reach"...just not on the brochure.

[Edit-Edit]. Upto 100-feet so that means in free-air, not through walls. Depending on the theatre dimensions, it will be dicy. The output resolutions are also, seemingly, fixed based on the specs (they don't list them as maximum but as a fixed value). I'd hope that they are maximums.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-17-2018, 12:33 PM:

We've put in some, the 100 and 200. The 200 at least (I didn't personally set up a 100 yet) has its own wifi network so you can connect a phone and mirror the screen. With the "button" on a PC you get the screen projection and can assign it as a second screen like with a wired HDMI - you do get picture and sound from the receiver. From a phone via wifi you only get image, not sound. It may be able to act like a Chromecast and locally download and play stuff like Netflicks if it's also on an internet-connected wired network? I didn't try that.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-17-2018, 03:27 PM:

I don't question it's use for conference/meeting room applications, but Clickshare is not a wireless hdmi extender, but a software and WIFI based screen sharing system. It uses signal compression, needs software support for the buttons, there is some latency, no guaranteed frame rates, will fail on HDCP, etc. As such, it might work for the application in question here (Powerpoint presentation), but, and given the price, it is not a universal HDMI extension. It has grown quite popular over here and is a solid and well established system. It's main aspect is the shared operation, so multiple people can take over the display with their own device without plugging, switchers, etc.

We usually offer a wired HDMI extension plus optional analog audio, and if accepted, run the same presentation from our booth PC with either a clicker or through teamviewer as a backup. We also offer a chromecast and AppleTV for wireless screensharing from portable devices. Works all nicely through our AP20.

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-18-2018, 04:31 AM:

After pretty much mixed experiences with all kinds of HDMI over Cat.X Ethernet cabling extenders, we decided to install a traditional HDMI cable with an HDMI repeater roughly half-way. The maximum you can get out of it is roughly ~30m / ~90ft. Until now, we've not yet had compatibility issues with this setup, whereas beforehand it was pretty much hit and miss.

If we need to transport HDMI video/audio over longer distances, we usually convert it to HD/3G-SDI using an HDMI to SDI converter from BlackMagic Design and do the reverse on the other side (if necessary). This is very reliable even over very long distances of over 100m / 300ft with the correct (though pretty expensive) coax cables. There is one drawback though: HDCP won't work.

PS: We practically never feed the signal of a third party directly into the projector. If feasible, we'll put some "known-to-be-good" HDMI switch in between the projector and the "third party source". We do this to protect the HDMI port of the projector. We've seen blown HDMI ports in the past, which can result in repairs in the $10K+ range.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-18-2018, 07:15 AM:

Marcel,

I can pretty much guarantee that a product like the Extron XTP T UWP 202
https://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=xtptuwp202&subtype=633&s=8
(dual input, analog/HDMI)
and its entire family (different input combinations, faceplate style or brick, 4K version due to the hit the streets any day now) with the XTP SR HD 4K (and its family).
https://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=xtpsrhd4k&s=4
works reliably EVERY time. It is HDCP compliant works with 2-channel, multi-channel (including DTS and Dolby high bandwidth audio) and is good for up to 100 meters (330-feet).

In fact, the only downside to the Extron XTP line is that they are not on cheap side of the spectrum. The US-LIST price is $1690.00 for the scaling receiver and $1,390.00 for the transmitter. But they are practically plug-n-play (with the scaling receiver, you really don't have to worry about what someone plugs in, it will output what your projector can handle and scaled to fill the 1080/2160 imager while retaining aspect ratio. Just use shielded CAT cable. Extron, naturally, recommends their CAT cable but there isn't anything particularly special about it other than it is 475MHz cable so if you are going with your own brand and you are going to be on the longer side of things, then you want the higher bandwidth cable and SHIELDED (have I said that before?). For typical 100-150-foot runs, I've had zero issues with 350MHz shielded CAT cables (CAT5e) even from the lowly likes of Monoprice.

I guess, the only other "downside" to the Extron XTP line is that you have to source them from an Extron dealer and they are prohibited from selling them via the internet (at least in the USA). Extron, a privately owned company, does NOT sell through box-stores (e.g. no Amazons or B-H Photo and that sort). They want their DEALERS to provide the right products and support. "Level-1" tech support is supposed to be the dealer themselves.

There is an entire XTP product family and was original conceived to be used with their XTP matrix switchers (think universities/government applications) where classrooms and even buildings can be connected up together (naturally, there are entire fiber optic families in the XTP line to be able to extend it as far as needed)

The XTP line puts in their "Key Minder" technology so the transmitter is the sink for the HDMI device so you don't get the handshaking crap that has to be rechecked all of the time or if you have a switcher in there. You can have an Extron matrix switcher in there and have mixed HDCP compliant/non-compliant displays and it will output perfect images on the compliant displays and green screen on the non-compliant displays simultaneously without effort. Though, it is probably getting tough to find non-compliant displays now. Their HDCP technology is pretty rock solid.

I can also testify that the Extron DTP line is also very reliable but, for whatever reason, Extron does not make a scaling receiver for it. That is, unless you connect it up via one of their DTP matrix switchers. They put the scaler in the matrix switcher so you make an expensive matrix switcher, even more expensive. But again, it is quite the reliable system. I'd say that DTP is pretty close to HDBaseT technology (Extron claims it is better, of course) and most Extron DTP transmitters now have an HDBaseT compatibility switch (since many A/V devices, including projectors, can take HDBaseT directly, it would make sense).

Again, the DTPs stuff works with all of the forms of HDMI audio too. Many A/V devices out there will just call for "Stereo" audio because that is what A/V works with. Extron's HDMI stuff will work with just about everything up to DTS Master Audio and Dolby True HD audio and everything below. Often with the audio de-embedder (for stereo) built into the receiver.

I've had reasonable success with Atlona's HDBaseT products but I'd think most companies HDBaseT products would work equivalently on the getting the signal from here-to-there part since HDBaseT is a bit of a standard and everyone is shopping at the same HDBaseT store. All various companies can do is put their features at the endpoints (what sort of inputs/output, switching, scaling...etc.).

But if I'm in a situation where I'd have the least bit of concern about the signal, Extron XTP is going to deliver, every time. That whole family is just so rock solid.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-18-2018, 07:20 AM:

The Clickshare image is good for podium uses. Video looks decent, sound is good. If you're projecting a 4K Blu-Ray from the podium... that's entirely nuts so there's not much to say... but obviously you need a cable extender.
Cables or extenders have issues as well. Someone with a laptop sending 1600x900 video isn't going to get a picture from any cinema projector I've seen.
Geeks with Linux laptops won't be getting connected to a Clickshare, either.
Some sites are not amenable to adding cable, both the "historic" ones where the architecture can't be compromised and modern ones where there's just no affordable route available. A wireless solution like Clickshare has its place.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-18-2018, 07:36 AM:

Dave,

The Extron XTP system I listed above would handle the 1600x900 resolution just fine. By using the scaling receiver, it will take pretty much whatever they throw at it.

We have MANY sites where they do indeed run a Blu-ray from the lectern area and some, in fact, put a Blu-ray in there. Theatres seem to want to get away from having an employee attending to events as much as possible so by putting technology in such that user can plug in THEIR stuff and run THEIR show, it is cheaper to pay more for a little more technology in the theatre than to repeatedly pay for employees to tend to such rentals. I'd say about 10% have had us put a Blu-ray player in the lectern. The vast majority just want the input plate by the screen somewhere so that whomever can plug in whatever they brought. The XTP line provides for having Ethernet come down the same single cable too. In those sites, I provide a "dirty" internet connection that has no connectivity to any other part of the sites network.

I agree that the "Clickshare" technology has its place and I could easily see where it would be a nifty product for some. I'm not plussed about having to issue a dongle to an outside entity but it is no more "dangerous" than handing them a microphone (Cost wise) though a microphone is less likely to walk out than the widget plugged into their computer (how many adapter cables have left venues with computers?)

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-18-2018, 11:04 AM:

quote: Bradley J Sime
I would also try your damndest to convince the presenter to let you fellows run the powerpoint from the booth, and have them use a blue tooth wireless clicker, if need be. That works well for us. I've found that letting the inmates run the asylum, even with a great setup, always is more trouble than it's worth.

Agreed totally in principle. Another advantage is that if you ask the speaker to give you their Powerpoint file and run it from your computer in the booth, you know that the resolution, frame rate, color space, interlaced/progressive ... all that stuff is set up in advance, no nasty surprises or last minute jerry rigging, and you know that it'll work.

The problem is that one that anybody who works in an arthouse type venue that hosts visiting speakers regularly will be aware of: many of them, especially academics (who are used to operating Crestron or AMX-based podium systems, and hooking their laptops directly to them), will be very resistant to this. They don't understand that the a/v systems in university lecture theatres were designed with very different objectives in mind to those in movie theatres, and can be pretty intolerant when confronted with this reality.

Others have gone over the stage<>booth connection options comprehensively above, and the only thing I'd add is that this can be a significant pain in the rear if the necessary cable runs are not put in place when an auditorium is built or refurbished. You can be faced with a choice of drilling through walls or tearing down drywall to run cables, or having to use a wireless solution, with all the reliability risks that involves. So if you have a major refurb project coming up, even if you don't have the need for stage<>booth audio and video connections on the immediate horizon, it might be worth thinking about putting them in if the opportunity to do that more cheaply than as a standalone project presents itself.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-18-2018, 11:16 AM:

Absolutely, whenever possible, put in conduit for an A/V feed 3/4" minimum but put in larger, if possible because one never knows what technology will want. With some of the newer network audio solutions (like Q-SYS) having EMT runs behind the screen can be advantageous.

Push come to shove, it isn't the end of the world to get an Ethernet cable to the screen area (behind the drapes, over the ceiling, pick a path, auditorium dependent. I'd absolutely take a clean conduit run with a pull-string though!.

And yes, the more variables you can eliminate (use house computers) the greater the chance of success. It depends on the theatre, the type of show(s) and management's desire for cost controls that will ultimately determine what system should go in. Not surprisingly, the cheaper one goes, the low the chances are for success.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-18-2018, 06:15 PM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
Agreed totally in principle. Another advantage is that if you ask the speaker to give you their Powerpoint file and run it from your computer in the booth, you know that the resolution, frame rate, color space, interlaced/progressive ... all that stuff is set up in advance, no nasty surprises or last minute jerry rigging, and you know that it'll work.

Unfortunately, not necessarily true. Powerpoint presentations may reference external media, or use fonts that are not installed on your booth machine, both breaking the formatting or functionality of the presentation.
Also, quite a few presenters hesitate to give their presentation away, even for the purpose of their own presentation. So, in general, it is good to have both options. A third is, of course, to connect his notebook in the booth, and give him a clicker.

- Carsten

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 02-19-2018, 02:24 PM:

We have had very good luck with the Crestron 8G (shielded category cable) and hdbaset compatible hdmi transmitter/receiver (and scaler available) options. We tend to use a Crestron DM switcher because most of our rooms are specialty so all of our alt content and guest I/O uses the switcher. We use DM transmitters to bring video from the stage over 8G (or fiber). To get from the rack to the projector we use a DM output card over 8G to a "room scaler" and then HDMI or DVI into the projector.

I have also used the Altoona and black magic stuff with ok results. Crestron is preferred because of the EDID management and source/sink configuration.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-19-2018, 02:39 PM:

The "Gotcha" with Crestron (or AMX) is that they tend to not work as stand alones as Crestron is a control system unto itself. While the XTP system also tends to want to work as part of an Extron Touchlink or like system, Extron's stuff has always been easily controlled by "others." Crestron, on the other hand, flips the bird at other control systems of "their" stuff. But yes, if you have a Crestron DM switcher in there with suitable control, then that is a pretty stable platform.

The Extron XTP products I mentioned work as stand alone devices sans switcher and are rock solid.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 02-22-2018, 08:25 AM:

Very good point Steve. They claim that the 8G DM protocol is compatible with HDBaseT and now they market certain consumer (prosumer?) projectors and displays with "Crestron Inside" or some such thing that is supposed to accept control over the same signal.

Luckily I have had good luck where I had to use Crestron gear in a "stand alone" capacity but I have also had good luck with Altona, and Magic. I have not really had any issues with Extron but I prefer Crestron gear these days.

On a side note I am excited as the Q Sys control portion becomes more and more advanced that we may be able to start using one platform for Audio DSP and control. The big problem with that right now is the lack of video support.

I also agree with you strongly that using good shielded cable is very important. I prefer to use Crestron 8G cable and connectors for any video over ip runs as I find it to be good quality and easier to work with than some generic shielded cat 6 cable.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-22-2018, 09:34 AM:

It seems that I have missed this thread.

To the OP: is there any reason not to just do the super-low-tech option? As in, put the computer with the presentation software in the booth, install VNC server software on it, and log into it remotely from a laptop at the front of the auditorium. This can be done with wi-fi or a single cat. 5 run, costs effectively nothing (assuming that the computers are already there or can be borrowed), and works reliably.

The other suggestions being offered are great for a permanent installation, but seem like overkill for a one-off event (if that is what this is).

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-22-2018, 05:40 PM:

Would there have to be a projector preset created containing assigned macros that would correct color spacing for use from an outside source such as HDMI, VGA an the similar?

With our Barcos using SX3000 servers, we have a preset with assigned macros to correctly reproduce what the source would display. Otherwise, using no assigned presets with the correction macros, the display colors are not acceptable.

Posted by Bradley J Sime (Member # 9423) on 02-23-2018, 12:01 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer was the last to post

The problem is that one that anybody who works in an arthouse type venue that hosts visiting speakers regularly will be aware of: many of them, especially academics (who are used to operating Crestron or AMX-based podium systems, and hooking their laptops directly to them), will be very resistant to this. They don't understand that the a/v systems in university lecture theatres were designed with very different objectives in mind to those in movie theatres, and can be pretty intolerant when confronted with this reality.

quote: Monte L Fullmer was the last to post

Fortunately, thanks to the popularity of "hands free" Ted Talks and such, more and more lecturers/speakers seem to feel that having a laptop on stage is kind of tacky and are thrilled when they don't have to. We get a ton of that stuff at my theater.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-23-2018, 07:52 AM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
Unfortunately, not necessarily true. Powerpoint presentations may reference external media, or use fonts that are not installed on your booth machine, both breaking the formatting or functionality of the presentation. Also, quite a few presenters hesitate to give their presentation away, even for the purpose of their own presentation. So, in general, it is good to have both options. A third is, of course, to connect his notebook in the booth, and give him a clicker.

I never encountered the former (though agreed that it's a theoretical risk), and the latter only once. A bigger problem was the occasional Macosexual (a mental disorder that seems to be prevalent among professors in arts subjects) who only uses Keynote, when all we had in the booth was Windows/MS Office or Ubuntu.

As for Scott's suggestion of using VNC, once again, the issue is the physical connection. Windows Remote Desktop or Teamviewer would also work as software solutions.

I suppose you could try what I do when doing projector lens/screen file setups, which is to use a portable wifi access point (I have a used Apple Airport, bought from Ebay for $25 - takes up almost no space in a tool bag, and, when positioned on the front wall of the booth, easily provides a strong enough signal to reach the front row in every house I've worked in) to make the link. As long as you aren't sending high bandwidth content (e.g. video) and no Internet access isn't a problem if the switch in the booth doesn't have an Internet connection, that should work.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-23-2018, 11:47 AM:

There are numerous aspects always. Fo some people, plugging in a cable is the easiest way, for some, instaling a VNC server/client is. If I'd be at some location for a presentation and a tech suggests to install 'something' on my personal machine, I would clearly decline.

Many of those machines may be managed by corporate security policies which prevent software installations. Remote Control software may be considered especially fishy.
The only solution is to offer a range of solutions.

That's why I always suggest to have one or two cat6/7 cable runs towards the screen. It's cheap, and it can be used for a multitude of applications with a few cheap converters, be it data/ analog/digital video/analog/digital audio/DMX, whatever.

- Carsten

Posted by Larry Zuverink (Member # 1483) on 02-27-2018, 10:15 AM:

We have had very good luck with Celerity fiber HDMI cables. You definitely must have these in conduit.

http://www.celeritytek.com/product-cfo.html

This eliminates the picture going out when the lamp lights on the projector next door. They work work very well with matrix switchers as well. The only thing we do is add a small aluminum rod to the connector for a strain relief. I have found the best prices to be with Bersma electronics if they are available in your area.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 03-04-2018, 03:14 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Theatres seem to want to get away from having an employee attending
to events as much as possible so by putting technology in such that user
can plug in THEIR stuff and run THEIR show, it is cheaper to pay more for
a little more technology in the theatre than to repeatedly pay for employees
to tend to such rentals

I know what you are saying, but I've run into a LOT of clients, including some from
well known hi-tech companies who are totally ignorant about something as 'simple'
as plugging in a cable to run their own show.

I could write several snarky paragraphs about two corporate events I did just this week
alone that wouldn't have happened if the venue had left things up to the clients.

On one of them I had to re-render all their graphics, which were not actually part
of the show but were to run on two large screen monitors in an outer lobby,
because despite being given detailed instructions, they still showed up with graphics
files that were in the wrong aspect ratio and in a file format totally incompatible with
the system that was in use.

Also, although this is a somewhat esoteric exception - - I've worked a couple of big
shows at venues where "house rules" and union contracts prevent a presenter from
actually running their own presentations.

So, the presenter has a 'clicker' that operates a set of 'forward' and 'back' cue lights
backstage, where a union technician is the person actually changing the slides.
Sometimes, instead of the presenter & cue lights, an assistant to the presenter with
a copy of the script, sits next to the computer operator and cues the slide changes
at the appropriate time.
(I actually prefer this method, since if a wrong slide is put on screen, "the guy in the
middle" usually gets all the blame. [Big Grin]

)

Just for the record, this is how the 'supertitles' above the stage at the San Francisco Opera
house are projected. A union technician actually pushes the buttons that project the titles,
but gets cued by someone else with a copy of the music score as to when to do it. Ironically
they are both union members, but are in different unions.
(The tech-guy is a stagehand, the other person is a musician, I think)

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-04-2018, 03:54 PM:

In an opera, that's entirely sensible. To cue the slide changes accurately and consistently, you need someone who can sight read a full orchestral (because in many operas, especially Wagner, there are long orchestral sections with no singing) and vocal score, and who is fluent in the language both that is being sung and of the projected subtitles. The chances of finding an a/v technician who can also do all that and monitor the projected image are not high.

If I'm sight-reading a piece on the organ, it's not going to end well if the person turning pages for me can't read music at least as well as I can - and that's just three staves per line. It's not just a case of following what is being played, but also making a judgment call as to how far ahead I'm likely to have read on the last line of a right-hand page in deciding when to make the turn.