Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 2D Digital Looking Like CRAP!

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Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 02-28-2018, 11:04 PM:

Hi All,

I know this has been discussed on this site before, but I just wanted to get some advice...

Yesterday I saw Call Me By Your Name at one of my local AMC theaters. As soon as the trailers started, I said to myself, "ahh shit, not again" when I saw the first trailer.

Throughout the trailers and the entire film, the presentation had that dreadful dark, gloomy, off color and soft picture. I've encountered this before at other AMC theaters and have complained several times. First time I complained (for a presentation of Gone Girl) the manager seemed like he had no idea what I was talking about, like there was nothing wrong with the image. I did some research and think I recall this site has discussed the 3D lenses are left on during a 2D presentation. I wanted to walk out, but this was the only showing in my area and didn't want to make my girlfriend walk out as well. Not to put her down, but she saw nothing wrong with the image like most patrons. I find it both unbelievable and quite frustrating that AMC still, four years later, allows such a terrible image to be projected.

So I completed one of those AMC surveys and let them know how unacceptable that image was. I also mentioned the 3D lens thing, yet again! I got a response the same day by email and the manager wants me to call him. I don't know how many more ways to explain this to get through to these people! Any advice on what I should say to the manager? Anyone have opinions on this or updates on this terrible practice?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-01-2018, 12:38 AM:

Dark, gloomy and off color could all be accounted for by worn out lamps, fundamentally. The classroom projector bulbs used in the projectors intended for the smallest theater screens (e.g. NEC NC900C or Barco E series) don't hold their color temperature well at all: as Mark Gulbrandsen pointed out in another thread, these aren't the projectors for you if maintaining the image within DCI XYZ specs is important. A worn-out or overrun xenon bulb could have the same effect, though they tend to flicker more than change color temperature if abused.

I say fundamentally, because other light source-related things could be in the mix: worn out reflector, triaxial alignment of the lamp slipped, gross and disgustingly dirty lens, heat damage to optical components, etc. etc. In my (admittedly limited) experience of troubleshooting poor illumination complaints, it tends to be a combination of problems rather than a single fault.

Soft focus: again, as covered elsewhere, focus drift away from the presets that were set up when the projector was installed can happen. Almost all the servicing and installation I do is on NECs and Barcos, of which NECs are consistently worse for focus drift over time. The presets really need "touching up" every few weeks, by standing close to the screen with a laptop connected to the projector by wifi, racking the focus until you can see the individual pixels, then saving the lens file. I do this on Barcos as well, though as a general rule, they don't seem to drift as badly. But the focus certainly isn't a set-and-forget item, just like it wasn't in the 35mm days.

quote: Aron Toplitzky
Not to put her down, but she saw nothing wrong with the image like most patrons.

Which is why you encounter these problems at most suburban 'plexes, unless you get lucky and go to see a movie the day after a tech has been in to do a planned maintenance on the projector, server and audio system. 99.9% of customers are far more tolerant of image and sound defects than the 0.1% who have significant knowledge of the technology in use, and what it should be capable of.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 03-01-2018, 02:25 AM:

AMC mainly uses Sony projectors. The device that makes the image in them turns yellow and brown with age.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-01-2018, 04:24 AM:

Aron - repeat your claim, and ask him wether he would show you round next time you're there. Let him show you that booth, and maybe you can check the other auditoriums image as well. Make it clear that you are not interested to squeeze out a free ticket, but that you are interested in having a good time at a cinema.
If the only thing he offers is a refund or a free ticket, then, simply tell them you're sick and tired of getting free tickets for mediocre presentation shows, and that in the future, you and your friends will stay away. You may also report the issue to AMC head office.
Leaving the 3D lens on a 220/320 does not necessarily make the image dull - but if these machines receive no maintenance, regular bulb changes, or have been underspec'd from the start.

- Carsten

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 03-01-2018, 08:04 AM:

quote: Stephan Shelley
AMC mainly uses Sony projectors. The device that makes the image in them turns yellow and brown with age.

Also, the Sony projectors can't do the frame rate necessary for 3D. Because of this, the 3D lenses for them actually split the image into 2 parts (which I believe are each 1/4 the size of the imaging chip) and then overlays the images on top of each other.

Other than being a cheaper way to get 4k and having 4k from the get go, I can't think of a single "good" thing about the Sony projectors.

I guess due to very favorable financing deals, AMC and Regal both used them for their switch from 35mm to digital. I don't know if they still use them on new installs.

At least the Dolby Cinema and IMAX auditoriums don't use Sony. Not sure about AMC ETX (if any still exist) or Regal RPX.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-01-2018, 08:33 AM:

Just curious, are we talking about an AMC Classic theater, aka Discount House. If so, it may be like ours, they just let it run down and not give a crap. That's why I quit going to our AMC (somewhere in the Forum there is a rant about my Christmas Eve experience a couple of years ago).
Sometimes your only solution is to find a better theatre.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-01-2018, 09:52 AM:

quote: Lyle Romer
Also, the Sony projectors can't do the frame rate necessary for 3D. Because of this, the 3D lenses for them actually split the image into 2 parts (which I believe are each 1/4 the size of the imaging chip) and then overlays the images on top of each other.

Sorry, but that is plain nonsense. Every Sony system can do 4k at 60fps right out of the box. They are in fact not able to do double or triple flashing, but neither is double or triple flashing a prerequisite for 3D, nor a guarantee for a 'good' 3D. On the contrary, flashing is a 'cheap trick' to do 3D. While compromising light output (which 3D system doesn't?) and reducing display resolution (3D is inherently limited to 2k anyway), the Sony 'classic' splitlens 3D displays both left and right eye simultaneously at frame rates up to 60Hz. If AMC wouldn't give a shit about their presentation quality, there'd be no issues with their systems.

One should probably not bring this issue up here were hardly anyone takes notice, but on social media and AMC feedback channels. If they feel it costs them money, they may change something. As it is, AMC simply seems to be no place to go for a good presentation. They even ruin Dolby Cinema in their cheapo installs.

- Carsten

Posted by Alexandre Pereira (Member # 9295) on 03-01-2018, 11:46 AM:

Carsten is right. With Sony - like any other machine they have to be maintained. I have a Sony SRX-R320 - using it for over a year and it has excellent contrast - vivid colours and is very reliable. Regardless if the bulb is not changed the image will be dull.
The bigger problem here is circuit maintenance of DCP equipment. Here in Toronto with CP it varies a lot. The techs generally are overwhelmed by the issues across so many sites and so many screens to keep up on everything.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-01-2018, 12:18 PM:

Avoid any theaters using Sony projectors!! The green chips turn towards the brown spectrum as they bake in the heat of the lamps and AMC does shitty maintenance. This does not happen on DLP equipped cinemas.

quote: Carsten Kurz
Sorry, but that is plain nonsense.

Well, overall Sony projectors are just plain nonsense. There is simply no need for them. Especially their dual lens POS system where the lenses are never removed for 2-d performances.

Mark

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-01-2018, 04:50 PM:

You are spot-on Mark, this is certainly not green-brown, so DLPs don't suffer THAT issue:

http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f16/t003230.html

- Carsten

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 03-04-2018, 05:15 PM:

When new and maintained properly the Sonys put out a really nice picture with great contrast. They need so much attention though.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 03-07-2018, 10:11 AM:

Another issue I've seen it many AMC theaters is when they do re-lamp they never recalibrate so they remain at the high setting that they had turned it up to as the previous bulb was aging.

This gives everything a nice gray washed-out look like a really bad LCD TV with the brightness cranked.

The AMC/Sony deal was a sweetheart deal dating back to 2009:

AMC/Sony Press Release

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-07-2018, 10:15 AM:

There is no "black level" adjustment on D-Cinema projectors. You may refer to lamp power but while that adjustment does increase/decrease the black level, it also increases/decreases the white level. But not to the point where the picture looks washed out.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 03-07-2018, 10:21 AM:

I actually find that rather interesting, as when I finally reached the correct person in management for the theater they did go through and re-calibrate their theaters and the experience was much better the next time around. Blacks were no longer grey and yet I don't remember the whites in the same theater as being blinding when the black levels were too high.

Adjusted my previous post accordingly, my apologies.

Posted by Sascha F. Roll (Member # 9043) on 03-07-2018, 11:50 AM:

@Marco:
With Sony SRX 5xx series there IS actually a black level „calibration“ that needs to be performed when doing periodid maintenance (after cleaning the optics and before calibrating Gamma and Uniformity) —> Wavelength Filters. Has to be set for „lowest luminance of all 3 colors R G B“ in a certain way (First R, then B, then G). Goal is to achieve lowest possible black levl and best black level uniformity.

Of course not to be performed by operators.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 03-07-2018, 01:29 PM:

quote:
quote: Aron Toplitzky Not to put her down, but she saw nothing wrong with the image like most patrons.

Which is why you encounter these problems at most suburban 'plexes, unless you get lucky and go to see a movie the day after a tech has been in to do a planned maintenance on the projector, server and audio system. 99.9% of customers are far more tolerant of image and sound defects than the 0.1% who have significant knowledge of the technology in use, and what it should be capable of.

Ahhhhhh it's such a vicious cycle. "Most" people don't "notice" so management doesn't think there's anything wrong. But when someone DOES complain, even if they have some idea of what they're talking about, it doesn't get taken seriously. Even if the complaint results in a service call, it's a crapshoot if the theater gets visited by a tech that actually knows his stuff/cares to make the fine adjustments. It's a travesty, really, the way the big chains are doing things. They do the absolute bare minimum to herd and corral as many people through the doors as they can, with no regard to actual quality, and the people don't know what they're missing. I don't foresee it getting better as a whole, ever. People will just elect to stay home because their tv at home has a sharper picture.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-07-2018, 03:02 PM:

indeed there is one in a Sony series 5, it is a mechanical/optical adjustment and not a software one and, as you say, not performed by the operator.

But that is not performed after lamp change as stated - but I see the term "black level" has now been removed from the post!

Still, the brightness increase given by a brand new lamp versus an old one won't give the feeling of a washed out picture - all the contrary.
If we talk about a contrast-limited machine (4K DLP for example) then a brighter picture could highlight the poor contrast, which is a feature of the machine itself.

Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 03-07-2018, 06:50 PM:

Thank you all for your input and useful information. So here is the update:

A manager at this AMC emailed and asked me to phone in to further discuss the issue. I called earlier today and I must say, this guy really seemed to care and want to fix the problem. He mentioned the auditorium I was in as well as three other auditoriums, (he gave me specific numbers) have a “fixed” lens and use a stronger bulb in those in order to compensate for the 3D Polarized lens, when presenting a 2D movie. He believes the bulb might be dying. I didn’t ask for specifics on which projectors they use. He did offer me curtesy tickets that are valid for IMAX and Dolby Cinema. I told him it wasn’t necessary and that I just wanted the problem fixed but he insisted. With all that said, this was a very pleasant experience and I liked how this manager was glad I phoned in, so that he could narrow down the specific auditorium.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 03-07-2018, 08:01 PM:

Sounds like the Sony double lens for 3D.

But they should move the polarizers out of the way at least.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-08-2018, 04:23 AM:

On Sony 3D polarisers position will affect the overlay of the two pictures. I would not move them away so easily. They are not really supposed to be moved away. Sony Dual Stack is different, polarisers are on tracks and can be easily moved in/out

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 03-08-2018, 02:33 PM:

The ones I have seen have the polarizers in front of the two lenses and can easily be flipped out of the way. There are even automation controlled motorized units to do it.

Posted by Sascha F. Roll (Member # 9043) on 03-08-2018, 02:39 PM:

Sure, but then you'll need seperate Functions (Presets) for Flat / Scope / whatever WITH and WITHOUT polarizers as the convergence will differ. This can be a pain in the ass with today's need for numerous custom Functions / Presets (2.00:1, 2.20:1, etc)

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-08-2018, 05:30 PM:

I wasn't aware of motorised polarisers - are we talking about Sony R320 machines?
Anyway as Sascha says the angle/position of the polarisers will affect overlay. Moving them in and out requires some sets of functions and possibly a skilled person to do so.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 03-08-2018, 07:22 PM:

Nice to hear Aron. Hope they get the issue corrected.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-09-2018, 04:15 PM:

On the SRX-R320 Units, I've taken out that screen above the lamp to offer better cooling being that screen really slows down the airflow and the those Philips XDC4200S bulbs gets dark quick with less airflow.

Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 03-16-2018, 07:23 PM:

Would anyone know how Digital IMAX handles 2D and 3D showings? For example, some films in certain AMC Digital IMAX theaters have a mix of 2D and 3D showings throughout the day. Is there a lens change? I could have sworn I've seen some dark IMAX digital showings that had 3D showings in the same day.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-16-2018, 08:12 PM:

All IMAX systems use dual projection setups. Non-IMAX signed/mastered content is shown in 2D only and with reduced brightness on one projector only. I don't know exact numbers, but read somewhere that their standard presentation brightness is above the usual 14fl figure, which means that non-IMAX signed content would be around 14fl, possibly far below. These IMAX systems are fully automated and, while the occasional technical failure is possible there just as on other systems, there are less options for operator mistakes. Then again, it is AMC, so...

- Carsten