Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Alchemy hard disk drives models?

This is topic Alchemy hard disk drives models? in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-12-2018, 11:29 AM:

Hello.
Next week we are going to receive a “refurbished” Barco DO2K 10S with integrated Alchemy server.
This one comes without hard drives.
Can somebody tell me what type of hard drives must I buy to install it in their ports?
Any recommended brand and model?
Thanks!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-12-2018, 11:55 AM:

Our ICMP uses HGST CinemaStar C5K1000 1TB drives.

https://www.hgst.com/de/products/hard-drives/cinemastar-c5k1000

They can be bought relatively cheap. There is a 3*2TB option as well, but I don't know the exact drive model used. As the CinemaStar drives are only available up to 1TB, I assume the 3*2TB option uses Seagate enterprise/server grade 2TB models.
Note that there are 2TB CinemaStar drives, but these are 3.5" models.

There are not many of those enterprise/server grade 2.5" form factor drives, so it shouldn't be complicated to find these. They are quite a bit more expensive than the 1TB HGST drives. Barco also wants a heavy surcharge for the 3*2TB option. So far, we are fine with the 3*1TB option. It seems the ICMP is not too picky about specific drive models, so at some point, I will probably try some other drives as well. However, classic notebook drives will usually exhibit exceptionally long retry times on read errors, so, once a drive shows that behaviour, the raid could become very unreliable. I guess it would be wise to either source NAS capable 2.5" drives, or at least some where the number of read-retries can be configured with a manufacturer tool. I don't know if the Barco supplied drives have received special tuning. If you feel unsafe, just get the mentioned 1TB C5K1000 drives

Since your ICMP comes without drives - are you sure that at least the drive carriers are included?

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-12-2018, 11:57 AM:

The specific make/model that are approved and known to work are in the current manual(s). Honestly, I forget if it is Communicator, or the projector installation or projector service or commander manual that lists them.

BTW...if this is to replace an existing projector/system, you can move the drives over.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-12-2018, 12:30 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
There are not many of those enterprise/server grade 2.5" form factor drives...

..and that many of the models that do exist are 15mm height, not the more commonly found 7mm and 9.5mm. This is not a problem for the Alchemy, because its drive cartridges can take 15mm models. But the Dolby IMS 1/2/3000 (and its NEC-badged version) can only take up to 9.5mm, so if you ever want to recycle a set of Alchemy drives into a Dolby IMS, you need to check that they will fit.

The 2TB drives that Barco supplies for the Alchemy are 15mm height. Don't know about the 1TB ones.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-12-2018, 12:39 PM:

The two Barco recommended drives are listed in the english language ICMP installation manual, the 1TB drive is the above mentioned HGST/WD HCC541010A9E630 CinemaStar drive, the 2TB is the Seagate ST2000NX0253. These 2TB drives cost three times to four times as much as the 1TB drive.

Using other drives, according to Barco, voids the warranty.

- Carsten

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 03-12-2018, 12:42 PM:

The 2TB drive I've seen in the ICMP is the Seagate ST2000NX0253

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-13-2018, 12:42 PM:

Thanks you for your answers.

Carsten said:
"Since your ICMP comes without drives - are you sure that at least the drive carriers are included?"

Good question!! What about if not? Can be brought any compatible commercial drive carriers?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 03-13-2018, 06:11 PM:

Excellent question. The 3.5" drive bays are pretty common, and there are probably hundreds of incompatible ones. I haven't seen a 2.5" drive bay except on cinema server equipment. And Doremi's is different from Barco's which is different from NEC's.
So... good luck getting these from anywhere but Barco, particularly if you don't have a sample so you can search for a match...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-13-2018, 08:11 PM:

These carriers are not built by Barco, but I don't know a second source for them. I remember I played with the idea to buy a second set of carriers when we bought our Barco. They are definitely on Barcos spare part list, so, if they are not included, you need to contact Barco about them.

- Carsten

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-14-2018, 05:57 AM:

Well, as you suspect, the trays are not included 😕.

Any of you can send me any ref number write down in these trays or a detailed picture of them. I will try to find out there in the internet because I’m sure barco will sell it at gold prices...
In order to search it... what’s the technical name for these “trays”?
Drive carriers? Bay?

Thanks!!

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 03-14-2018, 07:36 AM:

Normally you need to buy the whole assembly, the drive caddy and the socket thing that goes in the computer... removable drive bay?
I can look at a drive caddy later today. Probably all ICMPs use the same one but that can't be guaranteed. At least get Barco's price to try and beat it.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-14-2018, 08:01 AM:

I call them cartridges, but that's probably not official.

I have seen that model of cartridge in other servers and SAS RAID boxes, but I'm afraid that I couldn't give you a generic make or model number, sorry. I'm sure that Barco buys them off the shelf, but couldn't tell you where from.

This is a totally different model of cartridge from the one used in Dolby IMSes.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-14-2018, 08:04 AM:

I didn't see Barco listing a separate part for the drive carrier by itself. Just the complete set of drives with carriers. Barco isn't into supplying small parts. They like larger assemblies.

Hopefully, the carriers have enough identifying markings to allow one to find at least the manufacturer and hopefully, it isn't just an OEM manufacturer.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 03-14-2018, 01:10 PM:

OK, there is nothing to identify them. I did not take a server out to see if the inside part has a brand.
pix, in case they help:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AiLqiegTyUpahChQlMt9mATIQoxk
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AiLqiegTyUpahCr9TtQLVjfWeIw9
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AiLqiegTyUpahCnzdrMUKJEYPtFJ

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 03-14-2018, 04:05 PM:

The bays are apparently an OEM product from Advantech but they don't show anything remotely like them on their website. I can't even find a similar bay from any supplier anywhere (but I didn't spend hours searching), there are some 2.5" ones that fit in a 3.5" drive slot... and maybe the guts could be mounted like on an ICMP but the slides don't look the same.
Barco doesn't show the slides/caddies as a separate part - they might sell the complete drive bay, but it isn't a normal spare part - so it will be special order from Belgium, Belgium probably then ordering from China... taking weeks at best to get to you.
Technically you could just push a drive into the bay and fiddle it until it plugs in... but it's going to be flopping around with nothing to hold it in.
I haven't priced a drive set from Barco but the 2TB Seagate drives are ~$400.00 each from Newegg.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-14-2018, 06:45 PM:

Did they give you any reason why the drives or carriers are not included with the refurbished model? I would understand why they take out the drives, but usually there is no reason to not include the carriers. Other than that they just want a second set themselves - but then this means quite some disadvantage for the potential buyer.
The 3*1TB full drive set has once been quoted to me at around 2500€...hefty...

Yes, I guess for a while you could get away with some d.i.y solution. The SATA connector is rigid enough to allow that.

But call Barco first.

- Carsten

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 03-15-2018, 01:55 AM:

We don't offer the trays as separate spare part. They're not really something that breaks down in the field.

However, when you order a set of HDDs from Barco, they come in their trays.
R9801142 = 3x 2TB HDD SET
R9801143 = 3x 1TB HDD SET

Posted by Ioannis Syrogiannis (Member # 3235) on 03-15-2018, 01:57 AM:

When there is a replacement, they ship the ICMP without HDDs, but that is only in case of replacement, not in case of a sale...

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 03-15-2018, 02:09 AM:

quote: Ioannis Syrogiannis
When there is a replacement, they ship the ICMP without HDDs, but that is only in case of replacement, not in case of a sale...

Correct: that is because in that case we don't want to charge the customers for new disks when they can re-use their old ones.

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-15-2018, 04:06 AM:

Thanks a lot, Dave.
Your pictures are very useful.
I googled for these words and any combination of them: "2.5 hot swap tray bay caddy HDD", and I found hundred of pictures but there is not the same latch in front of the trays in the pictures I found [Frown]

But:
In your pictures it seems that is the HDD drive itself connected inside the bay, there is NO special connector, so, in the bay hole must be a standard SATA and POWER connector.
If this is right, I think the problem is not a big problem.
We can make a homemade tray that can be introduced inside the bay, even if there is a simple homemade latch to fit it inside.
These drives will installed once and rest there for ever (except possible fails).
What do you think?

Carsten:
This is the question. The sale was "HDDs not included". I think the word HDDs mean this, the drives itself, not the whole cartridge. I thought the trays would be included and I only had to buy the recommended hard drives from WD.
I see for Barco, HDDs mean the whole HDD+tray

Regards

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-15-2018, 05:11 AM:

Yes, the connection inside the ICMP is the normal sata combo data+power receptable, a drive can plug into it immediately. You can also see that the carrier does not take much space adopting the disc, so there is a smaller risc of mechanical complications. Still, I would ask Barco for a quote of the full 3*1TB disc set first.

- Carsten

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-15-2018, 11:19 AM:

The usual term for this is one of the following: "drive carrier," "drive bracket," or "drive sled." Unfortunately, there is no standard for these, and every manufacturer has a different variant.

quote: Dave Macaulay
Technically you could just push a drive into the bay and fiddle it until it plugs in... but it's going to be flopping around with nothing to hold it in.

True, but sometimes the drive mounting hardware is part of the cooling mechanism for the drive and/or the chassis. To leave this out could be poentially problematic. (I don't know if it is in this case.)

Posted by Ioannis Syrogiannis (Member # 3235) on 03-15-2018, 12:22 PM:

Using a custom tray as a permanent solution is not a good idea.
As much as I understand the frustration of having to pay a significant percentage on top of the "out of the shelf" price, the original thing may save you more money in the form of tickets, customer and user frustration or ability for support.
Customizing may be good for a last moment solution, or a temporary one, but not for the "long play".

Don't forget (on top of the possible issues mentioned by Scott) that the HDD status LEDs appear there.
HDD errors, RAID (controller) errors etc. are not as rare as we would like them to be and the indicators can be a big help there, giving us time to be proactive.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-15-2018, 09:19 PM:

Was the original poster's projector and ICMP bought from Barco or from a third party?

I doubt it's from Barco, because they know that (a) it's useless without drives in it, and (b) they only sell the drives and trays as a package, not separately. I'm guessing it's from a third party - maybe someone who upgraded from a mk. I Alchemy to a mk. II, who wanted to keep the drives as a spare set.

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-16-2018, 07:08 AM:

Hello..
The projector + ICMP comes from Barco, not third party.

The problem is that these equipment are advertised as "NO HDDs included"

As we are a very little company, operating in very little villages, we need to economize as much as possible. That's why we thought we could buy and instsall the HDDs by ourselves.

We discovered too late that where BARCO sayd "HDDs" they meant "HDDs+Tray", that's the whole cartridge...

Now we need to solve this with in the most economic way.

Thanks!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-16-2018, 07:48 AM:

I am with Ioannis in that this should not become a permanent solution - but it may be possible to build your own trays and then start looking on the internet for alternative sources. The annoying thing is that these carriers are really simple, unlike e.g. the CRU carriers, they do not include any active parts, as far as I know. While Barco may certainly have chosen a higher quality type of carrier system, these things shouldn't cost much more than 5-10US$ on the normal IT market. It's 'just' the problem to source them. I was able to source the Doremi 3.5" RAID disc carriers at around 10US$ in small quantities. But these were available from official Dolby/Doremi sources as well.

Juan - I will later take out one of our carriers and take some more photos and measurements for you. While Ioannis is right about the activity and error indicators being important, those visible on the carriers are just simple plastic light-pipes picking up LED signals from below the disc frame. So, if you make your own carriers, I guess you will still be able to see these indicator lights.

Needless to say, if you make your own carriers and insert them into the ICMP, you will formally void your warranty.

- Carsten

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-16-2018, 02:29 PM:

Hi Juan,

it seems the email address you configured in the forum profile is no longer valid.

- Carsten

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-17-2018, 05:54 AM:

Thanks Carsten.
I just updated my email adress (terra.com was obsolete).
I will send you my email through PM.
Regards

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 03-17-2018, 07:23 AM:

After a closer look - the drive "tray" is part of an OEM assembly with three 2.5" bays on one PC board with the drive connectors across the back. The tray itself is just a sheet metal (20 gauge as a guess, but Chinese sheet metal is a metric thickness not a gauge size) "U" with a faceplate and its latching mechanism. I didn't see any lightguide, I don't have them with me now to look for that.
Someone messed up buying servers with no drives, but Barco should make it clear these ICMP models - sold for replacement of a failed ICMP or as a spare - don't come with the trays: the reduced price is appealing and they should be very clearly described as not suitable for a new installation.
Maybe if you explain the situation to Barco you can get the drive set for the price difference up to an ICMP with drives, rather than the spare parts cost of a drive set? It's exactly the same small cardboard box with three drives in trays, whether you purchase a server with drives or get a replacement set.
Anyway the slide is very simple to "fake". You only have to make up the sheet metal thickness on bottom and sides for the drives' rear connectors to exactly mate.
The front panels of the slides are grills but cooling air is all crosswise from the projector fans plus maybe some leaking out the front grills. The slide's metal plates definitely carry heat out to the bottom/sides but it doesn't look like it's engineered as a cooling solution (steel sheet metal isn't an excellent heatsink), "bare" drives in the airflow should cool OK (in my opinion).
As far as warranty goes... how would anyone know what was in there? Obviously the drives aren't covered by the server warranty, and I don't see how drives in "fake" slides could damage the rest of the unit. The logs will only show the drive details, not if they are on a factory slide. Warranty replacement servers are sent without drives.

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-17-2018, 07:55 AM:

Thanks Dave.

I will be very happy to get all the info about how these trays are made, but as far as this is a public forum, and in order to not have problems with the warranty, I will never use other than official barco trays with the ICMP we are going to receive next week.
A friend of mine not using his Barco ICMP will lend me these trays for the next 6 months.

Once I said this, thanks again all of you for the help. We can continue talking about how anyone can make himself or get some spare trays.

Regards!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-18-2018, 12:21 PM:

quote: Dave Macaulay
I didn't see any lightguide, I don't have them with me now to look for that.

If you look at your own pictures, you can see a small black device at the back of the drive, mounted on a small metal tab protruding from the carrier back. It looks like a fragile electric two pin connector at first, but it is the light entry point for two LEDs mounted at the back of the ICMP drive slot. Two thin light-guides/light-pipes are leading from there between carrier and drive bottom to the front light exits on the carrier lock. These light exits at the front look like LEDs, but they are just exits. No problem to just ignore that for a temporary solution - if you look into the slot even with the drive inserted, you can peek these LED lights if necessary. So, that's a non-issue.
However, on the other side of the SATA/power connector on the back of the drive bay, there seems to be a 'drive inserted' indicator switch. It appears to be an OMROM device, but I don't know wether it's mechanical, optical, or magnetically/proximity activated. It's still easy to cater for the activation with a D.I.Y carrier, even if you don't know how it works, since the corresponding activation tab can easily be identified on the drive carrier. However, that get's complicated if you don't have an original carrier to start with...

It's fun finding out about such things, but I won't start a business making counterfeit carriers, no market...

- Carsten