Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Tripp-Lite Smart UPS troubleshooting

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Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 04-14-2018, 11:46 PM:

Looks like we lost our Tripplite UPS for the server rack on Screen 2 tonight.

The unit is a Tripp-Lite SMART UPS 1500LCDXL.

Happened during intermission, so it really didn't interrupt the show.
Everything in that rack is plugged into an ETA power conditioner and power distributor, and then the power conditioner is plugged into the back of the Tripplite UPS. Pretty simple setup.

It's raining here tonight, but we haven't had any lightning that I know of. Employees said the lights flickered, but didn't think anything about it.

I was able to unplug the power conditioner from the back of the UPS and plug it directly into the wall. Ran the second show with no problems, but we've got no voltage spike protection at the moment.

After that screens movies were finished for the night, i was able to plug the UPS back in and got it to power back on.

The screen on the front tells me the input voltage is 123v, the batteries are 100% charged, the output voltage is 123v, and the system runtime is 64 minutes. The system load right now says zero because nothing is currently plugged into the UPS.

The fan on the back is making a weird noise, but there is warm air blowing out the back.

While the UPS was powered on, I unplugged it from the wall and it SHOULD have automatically kicked over to battery power. It didn't, it just shut off.

What do you think happened? Voltage spike? Dead batteries? The batteries are 5 years old. Don't know if the lights flickering CAUSED it to go out, or if it caused the lights to flicker. They all run on the same panel.

The unit is 5 years old, so it may have just died of old age. Any thoughts?

Posted by Arnold Chase (Member # 7988) on 04-15-2018, 01:04 AM:

Five years is a long time for UPS batteries. The units periodically test themselves for a very short period of time, so with no load you can't assume the validity of those batteries. Since the unit is off-line now, plug a significant amount of load into it and see how well it then passes the battery test.

My call is bad batteries.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 04-15-2018, 06:04 AM:

Devices that use "sacrificial components", like metal-oxide varistors for surge suppression can only take so many hits before resigning completely. I don't know how the voltage regulation in your area is, bit if this thing has taken five years worth of spikes it's possible that the light-flickering incident was the last straw for an MOV that was on the edge of dying anyway. I only took a quick look at this devices's spec sheet but I would think that if the MOV let go you would get some kind of display warning, though.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-15-2018, 07:38 AM:

What Arnold says. Plug in a smaller load (like a Monitor, etc.) and see if it switches over. Chances are, though, that the switch over alone could drop the battery voltage enough that the device shuts off. After 5 years, I guess it's time to swap the batteries.

- Carsten

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-15-2018, 09:10 AM:

Definitely start with the batteries. The life expectancy for those is generally in the 3-year range. I know that APC UPSes will give a warning when they are about to fail, though. I am surprised that yours did not.

It could also be a bad relay inside the UPS.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-15-2018, 10:04 AM:

Do you have more than one of these models? Battery swap would be a quick test to see wether the issue changes over with the battery.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-15-2018, 12:52 PM:

I have had the best luck with Powersonic batteries. Not a single failure on over 300 UPS battery changes over the last few years. Also, if the UPS does turn out to be toast (unlikely) then you'll have to replace it. Tripplite does not repair any equipment thats out of warranty I have only ever had one Tripplite UPS that actually failed and had to be replaced.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-15-2018, 03:59 PM:

Batteries are 3-5 year items, tops! Start there. Tripplite has the bad characteristic that if the batteries fail (one cell opens even), then it appears to be dead as a door nail. No lights no "change battery" nothing. The battery indicator only comes on IF the unit was on when the battery failed.

But, like Mark, I can't think of any time when changing the batteries didn't bring it back to 100%

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 04-15-2018, 05:46 PM:

I found a set of replacement batteries on Amazon this morning and went ahead and ordered them. They should be here before the weekend, so I'll start there first.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-15-2018, 06:34 PM:

So, the batteries on these are not hot-swappable?

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 04-15-2018, 07:40 PM:

Given that (with noted irony) UPS units do fail, for not very much money one can have an automatic transfer switch, that has a backup feed, that will switch the loads over to the backup when the UPS dies.

For example, the CyberPower ATS units.

The only gothca is that the backup input should be on the same phase as the prime supply for a clean switchover.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-15-2018, 07:59 PM:

So would you run an ATS on a UPS?

- Carsten

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 04-15-2018, 08:43 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
So, the batteries on these are not hot-swappable?

Hot swappable.. as in like "on the fly"? Not on this particular model. I was able to remove it from the rack, remove the rack ears and 6 screws from the case and easily separated the case to access the batteries.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-16-2018, 06:37 AM:

The Tripp Lite units we use (SMART and Smart Online [AKA SU]} do have hot swappable batteries. You do have a finite amount of time while the unit "yells" at you to get the batteries swapped (I forget what the time is but I have never run into it). The battery packs load in/out through the front cover. It takes just a few minutes to pull the screws (typically 6 or so), release the two screws that secure the battery pack, pull the plug and remove the battery pack. Reverse for installation.

As for transfer switches, we incorporate it into our "automation system" but you'll find that most people will look at a transfer switch for the UPS as essentially doubling their costs.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-16-2018, 09:23 AM:

I find that installing a transfer switch in every console is a bit on the ludricous side. If a complex is receiving normal maintainance that transfer switch is never going to be used. Just having one transfer switch per complex in the parts cabinet is sufficient and it can be subbed in place of a dead UPS in about 5 minutes time and you are back up again. Thats less time than it takes a DSS-200 to boot up!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-16-2018, 10:36 AM:

See? The problem with Mark's plan is that you DID have to go down first.

Our first step on addressing this problem was we used a power strip to plug into the UPS so only ONE cord had to be moved between the UPS and actual power rather than plugging several things in. But, we eventually expanded the role of the automation to allow remotely powering servers/projectors so while were at it, we added a transfer switch.

The problem without the transfer switch is that the people have no idea what you are talking about when getting them to move a single power cord, let alone several.

I don't think we could add $300/$500 to every screen just for a transfer switch without people balking a bit. They may opt for no UPS first.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-16-2018, 01:10 PM:

Thats a lot of money on a ten or 12 plex for equipment that never gets used.

Mark

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-16-2018, 03:14 PM:

The interesting question is not the cost - you could easily set up a power panel with labeled connectors/cables. And if there is no one on site to recognize a power problem, what other type of issues are they able to solve?
The trouble is - very often UPS and other associated gear like ATS cause more trouble that you'd have without them. So how much do you want to add to that system complexity? How much more do you want to spend to get equipment with that extra pinch of reliability? We may just be lucky over here with a mostly solid power network - but the only serious issues I ever had in my life was not power outages, but UPS malfunctioning or acting unexpectedly.

Of course, some installations may be complicated and nested, and, in fact, it is usually too much effort to command someone to actually pull out a racked UPS in order so connect in- and outgoing power cables to save a show.

- Carsten

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-16-2018, 03:53 PM:

About half of the UPS I supplied have failed including one 220 Volts unit for a 2230. Made me reflect why I expected a $400 UPS to protect a multi Thousand Dollar unit.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-16-2018, 04:28 PM:

What we've strived to reduce/eliminate are single point of failures. To that end, the transfer switch to the UPS. The UPS was put in to protect the sensitive gear. In the event of a power failure or even a mere brown out, the automation pauses the show since the server and projector electronics will be unaware of the power interruption. However, when the first UPS was the cause of the failure, we had to do either come up with a transfer switch or consider eliminating the UPS.

The thing is, the UPS has been doing its job. We have lost a very low number of everything. We normally use the zero-transfer type double conversion UPSes (more than the $400 type Sam was just mentioning) so the sensitive equipment is separated from the power by a bit.

From a support standpoint, being able to remotely power the projector and server was essentially a necessity (ever tried to update a Christie? Often you have to power cycle twice!). So we added a transfer switch in there at the same time and have yet to lose a show as a result.

As we start to design implement QSYS systems in complexes, again, the question is...UPSes? Transfer Switches? UPSes have already shown themselves to be liabilities while being life-savers at the same time. So I'm thinking that putting them in as a set almost has to be a given if you don't want your backup being the cause of the problem. It is too bad that the UPS companies can't put the transfer switch in their UPS (when the unit fails, it switches back City Power. Note, there are some MANUAL transfer switches where the end user will get an LED indication of which source has power and one can select that...but again, that would require a show going down. At the heat of it, a transfer switch is nothing more than a double throw relay that can handle the current on both sets of contacts (watch out, some have drastically lower current capabilities on the NC side).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-17-2018, 11:30 AM:

Well, you have to actually have a failure in order to justify having that xtra stuff. As long as batteries are changed in a timely manner the things just don't fail.

Sam,

Not sure what kind of UPS's you are using but APC is particuluarly troublesome overall if thats what you are using. Transmitter guys hate, hate, hate them. All my installs have 220 volt Triplite UPS's except for the TMS's and NC-900's which all have 120 volt Triplite UPS's.

Mark

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-17-2018, 07:22 PM:

Most of my failures have been with Tripp Lite's bought about 6 or 7 years back. Only recently tied to fix them by changing batteries.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-17-2018, 07:52 PM:

Yea, need to do batteries every 5 years for sure. The only one I had fail was because of some pretty old batteries.

Mark

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-17-2018, 08:58 PM:

The one I did try new batteries on did not work so gave up too easy.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-18-2018, 07:15 PM:

It seems if a battery gets a shorted cell or two that it kills the ups. The battery circuits are almost always fused, so you can look for that. The Tripplites I use have colored automotive fuses soldered to the board where the cable for the battery connects to the main board.

Mark

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 04-20-2018, 11:34 AM:

My problem ended up just being a pair of dead batteries. Found a set on Amazon for $39 with free shipping. Installed them last night and everything is back to working like it should.

I probably need to go ahead and order a set for my other rack, since they are both the same age.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-22-2018, 10:56 AM:

Bumping this back up with a question of my own.

We're a screening room. We don't rack up that many hours.

I have a Tripp Lite SU1500RTXL2UA "Smart Online" UPS which is a full time AC-DC-AC unit. I have it solely to isolate from possible power line glitches. It runs my Dolby DSS-200 server (24/7) and the electronics part of my NEC NC1200C projector (on and off as needed). Also the ethernet switch between projector and server, the few Watts that draws.

We went digital in Sept. 2012 and I got the UPS in Feb. 2013. No issues.

My question: As it's now been five years, should I replace the UPS batteries just because of their age? They've probably only ever cycled once and really don't have much to do but that doesn't mean their age could not present an issue in the future. Just because *I* don't think they should matter in this environment has no bearing on the reality.

(Seems to me the UPS people, knowing many users use the full time UPSs for filtration only, ought to make a model with no batteries, maybe just a big capacitor bank but that's just me.)

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-22-2018, 12:12 PM:

In my experience, UPS batteries typically last about 3 years (as noted by others in this thread). It doesn’t matter whether they’re ever actually used. They degrade over time. At 5 years, you should just replace them and be done with it.

Does the UPS pass a self test that includes running on battery for a few minutes (with a load on it)?

Posted by Philip Jones (Member # 6677) on 04-22-2018, 02:00 PM:

This thread seems like as good a place as any for this query:

We have an APC UPS which the server (DSS200) and projector (NEC2000) electronics are on. However we do suffer from brown-outs on a fairly regular basis (maybe once every other month on average over the year).

When this happens it knocks out the lamp in the projector and then it goes into cool down mode and puts the projector into standby so we can't get things started again for roughly 8 minutes (5 minutes cool down and 3 minutes coming out of standby and reconnecting with the server).

Even more annoyingly the server doesn't realise the lamp has gone off for around 30 seconds so the sound continues with no picture until we can press stop\pause.

Is there any way round this? Ideally to keep the lamp on during these brownouts (we're talking literally the lights front of house dim\flicker and it's 50\50 to whether it will have knocked the xenon out) so the show isn't interrupted.

Interestingly in our second auditorium the lamp almost always stays on. We have 3 phase supply though and it is on a different phase so I assume that phase isn't so susceptible to the blips for whatever reason.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-22-2018, 02:19 PM:

Your first step would be to move the projector lamp to the more reliable phase!

How long do the brownouts last? Is a large UPS for the lamp a possibility?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-22-2018, 05:13 PM:

While replacement battery packs do not cost much nowadays (and it would be stupid to save a few bucks on a device that is explicitly built to ensure operations relibility), it is easy to test them. You do not need to test them with your server or projector head actually running. Just plug in an extension cord and connect a decent load. Cut power, see what happens. Most UPS have built-in or power-up tests, but they rarely test battery voltage drop with a typical load. Cheap test loads could be tungsten bulbs in the 100W-300W range.

Check if the UPS runs at least for 5-10min after mains has been switched off. If the UPS shuts of already after a few seconds, the batteries are unusable.

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-23-2018, 01:30 AM:

quote: Philip Jones
Is there any way round this? Ideally to keep the lamp on during these brownouts (we're talking literally the lights front of house dim\flicker and it's 50\50 to whether it will have knocked the xenon out) so the show isn't interrupted.

- Call your power company and tell them about the brownouts. If that doesn't work, call your local newspaper. I bet you're not the only one suffering from them.
- Like Steve Kraus already mentioned, if it's just on one phase, switch your affected equipment to other phases. Your power supplier might hate you for doing so, but they should deliver a stable supply.
- Last resort would be a UPS, but if your lamp is on e.g. 4kW, you would need a 5 kVA UPS and those aren't exactly cheap and also require extra space in your booth.

Furthermore, UPSes are an actual fire hazard. I'm personally fighting to get them out of the booth, datacenter or closet and into a dedicated power room. The reason? I've witnessed several UPSes going up in smoke over the years, in two cases even causing a serious fire. Notice that all of them were from the brand APC, a brand I've since started to distrust. Unfortunately, their parent company eliminated MGE from the market. I've never seen an MGE UPS go up in flames...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-23-2018, 07:17 AM:

It's also a good idea to have some stickers for UPS indicating last or next battery change/test. This is also useful for servers/media block/main board batteries, ICPs, etc. to always have them on your mind.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-23-2018, 03:19 PM:

I just ran the following test.

With the projector off & disconnected, I moved the server to other power (easy to do, one cord at a time). I put a nominal 200W load (two light bulbs) on the UPS and pulled the plug. I did not let it run down but let it go 3 minutes while keeping an eye on output voltage (about 118). Before I plugged it back in a took a look at the battery display on the UPS which is 4 LEDs. The 100% LED was flashing but not lower than that. No issues.

I would say my battery pack is good. Still might replace on principle though given their five year age. Might be able to stuff them in a UPS I have at home that is lacking.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-23-2018, 05:42 PM:

quote: Steve Kraus
I would say my battery pack is good.

The older they get the more likely they are to fail!! Remember there was some dead stock time involved with that UPS after it went in the box. So it sat for X number of months before it was sold. I have opened up Tripplite UPS's that I assumed were at the 5 year mark only to find they were really 7 years old. There are dates on some Tripplite battery packs... but not on all.

Mark