Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: You Were Never Really Here 7.1 files only

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Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 04-18-2018, 03:22 AM:

Very unusually, we have only received a disk with 7.1 files for this film. Unfortunately, we are only equipped for 5.1 in our theatre.

I assume that screening this version of the film is likely to cause a problem? Anyone come across this before?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-18-2018, 06:18 AM:

If you get a 7.1 KDM for this movie, you can play it. You won't hear the back surround channels of the movie, instead, the side surround channels will play on your surround speakers. I guess there are worse things that can happen to a presentation. Did you contact the distributor about this?

- Carsten

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 04-18-2018, 06:41 AM:

Yes, Carsten, contacted the distributors and waiting to hear back!

Can't really understand why they would send out a disk with no 5.1 files on!

Thanks for your response.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-18-2018, 08:36 AM:

If you were able to ingest the full 7.1 feature, that means the 7.1 version exists as a self contained OV - which is quite unusual, typically, and for good reasons, the 7.1 is a VF to a 5.1 OV.

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-18-2018, 03:14 PM:

It's an Amazon Studios distribution, they probably don't know their 7.1 mix won't automatically "downmix" on your average DCI gear. [Wink]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-18-2018, 04:38 PM:

Or that DCI requirements are to ALWAYS have a 5.1 version (that applies to you morons that issue 2.0 DCPs...do the decode on YOUR end).

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 04-18-2018, 09:15 PM:

Éclair, the UK distributor of the film replied:

"Hi Andy

Just got your email about the 5.1 for You Were Never Really Here
There's only 7.1 available but will revert automatically to 5.1

Let me know if there are any issues"

Strange attitude eh?

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-19-2018, 12:59 AM:

Not only a strange attitude, but a blatant lie.

quote: DCI specs
The presentation is required to provide, at a minimum, a 5.1 audio format, (Left, Center, Right, Low Frequency Effects, Left Surround and Right Surround). An audio format of 7.1 can also be provided.

(Emphasis mine)

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-19-2018, 05:51 AM:

He is absolutely correct - a 'minimum' of 6 channels, 7.1 is 8 channels, so, condition met. ;-)

- Carsten

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 04-19-2018, 01:21 PM:

Interesting! What percentage of auditoriums are 5.1? I'm used to configuring sound processors to run 5.1 content in a 7.1 room, but not the other way around. A JSD-60 can be configured to mix rear and side surrounds into a 5.1 surround channel. But, often 5.1 auditoriums use AES/EBU channel 8 through the JSD-60 for VI audio. If you put rear surrounds into AES/EBU 7 and 8, you'd have to add a D/A for VI. I wonder what the content difference is between side and rear surrounds. Could you just play it ignoring the rear surrounds?

Harold

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-19-2018, 01:38 PM:

quote:
He is absolutely correct - a 'minimum' of 6 channels, 7.1 is 8 channels, so, condition met. ;-)

Yep, let's quote the full specs to avoid all ambiguity. [Wink]

quote: Harold Hallikainen
I wonder what the content difference is between side and rear surrounds. Could you just play it ignoring the rear surrounds?

Consumer products that are correctly configured usually downmix the extra two surround channels, so the sound itself doesn't get lost. What obviously does get lost is a bit of the spatial information. You expect the studio to account for it and often the 5.1 mix is nothing but a downmixed 7.1 mix.

If you play a 7.1 mix on your average 5.1 DCI setup, you will effectively lose two channels worth of audio. Now, those channels tend to be the least used of the bunch, but it doesn't mean that nothing is there.

There are still plenty of auditoriums out there that don't support 7.1 surround. It's usually just in smaller venues or in smaller rooms of a multiplex, but even the big house in a multiplex is not by definition a guarantee for at least 7.1 sound.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-19-2018, 02:10 PM:

quote: Harold Hallikainen
Could you just play it ignoring the rear surrounds?

Yes, of course, as I said, there are worse things that can happen than that. The audience will certainly not know what they're missing. Occasionally, someone puts explicit BACK surround signals into the rear channels that may mean something special (the odd squeaky door). But even then they are usually just short gimmicks. No one puts important dialog lines into back surrounds only. At a time, I was thinking wether CPs should have a downmix function for 7.1 into 5.1. But I guess it would be used so rarely... We registerd both our systems to be 7.1 (even though one isn't), so we receive 5.1 and 7.1 KDMs for all 7.1 features.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 04-19-2018, 05:29 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
No one puts important dialog lines into back surrounds only

ALL......YOU!

[Big Grin]

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-20-2018, 12:54 AM:

Well, Gravity (2013) did put dialog into the back surround channels.

Also, what good are those two back channels if you can't ever really use them? [Razz]

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-20-2018, 06:30 AM:

Sure, I am not sure though wether there a dialog lines in the back surrounds exclusively, there may always be 'some' of it in the side surrounds as well.

But you are right, in the case of Gravity, not just some dialog lines could vanish, the spinning atmospheric sounds, music, etc. in these parts would simply vanish when they travel through BsR and BsL if it would be played through a 5.1 system.

Unfortunately, I think there isn't a 7.1 bluray of gravity, or is there? The BD I have lists only the french track in 7.1. Now what is that?

There seems to be a Diamond Luxe Edition, that one seems to have english in 7.1

Fortunately, we are not talking about Gravity here, but about some amazon flic, and as it stands, they deserve to lose their back surround dialog if they are stupid enough to issue a 7.1 only DCP. ;-)

- Carsten

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-20-2018, 10:08 AM:

Do most (or all) releases come with both 5.1 & 7.1 mixes? Do you get titles that come with only a 5.1 mix and if so, is that common or rare or a mixed bag?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-20-2018, 10:30 AM:

It's common for features to be 5.1 only. Unusual to get a release with only a 7.1 version, I haven't seen that. Some drives come with a ridiculous number of ingestable packages: 2D, 3D with several light levels, 7.1, Atmos, main and subtitle languages... emergency calls with "I ingested the 7.1 version but the feature isn't on my content list" are not rare. You always need to ingest the OV package as well as the VF for whatever version you want. That creates a new CPL - you will have the OV version and your modified one - and your KDM has to be for the exact same CPL.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-20-2018, 10:31 AM:

Most come in 5.1 only. I'd say maybe 10-20% are 7.1 currently. There is a slight tendency towards more 7.1. I think that is because ATMOS releases can be downmixed into 5.1 and 7.1 pretty easily, so, the more ATMOS, the more 7.1 releases.

If you play more mainstream than arthouse, you may get some more 7.1 DCPs.

I started a list with most common format attributes (Scope/Flat, 2k/4k, 5.1/7.1), but only from the beginning of this year.

Typically, you register your screen to be 7.1 enabled, then you receive 5.1 and 7.1 KDMs for every 7.1 feature, and it's up to you which version you play. However, if, as in this case the TE, you only get a 7.1 dcp, you have no choice to play a 5.1 version.

The server causes no issues if you play a 7.1 DCP with a 7.1 KDM on a 5.1-only audio system. All your 5.1 speakers will have sound. It's just that the content on the back surround channels of the DCP is missing in the playout.

- Carsten

Posted by Kevin Fairchild (Member # 4985) on 04-20-2018, 11:31 AM:

There is a 5.1 version available in the US

YWNRH_FTR-4_S_EN-XX-CCAP_US_51-HI-VI_2K_AMZ_20180121_DTB_IOP_OV

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 04-20-2018, 12:12 PM:

For a while now, Universal has been sending out 7.1-only trailers here in the US.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-21-2018, 01:30 AM:

In the US, at least, I'd say that 7.1 offerings are well over 50%. I'd say closer to 75% but always with a 5.1 version.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 04-21-2018, 09:11 AM:

I've never seen something come with a 7.1 but not also include a 5.1. - maybe you can get them to e-mail out a 5.1 VF?

The weird thing i've seen is a film come out in ATMOS and 5.1 - but no 7.1. We just had this with Jumanji 2 - there was an ATMOS, but then the regular version was only 5.1. Would have thought that if an ATMOS mix exists then there should be a 7.1 downmix avalible??

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-21-2018, 02:45 PM:

Wouldn't the ATMOS processor know to just use the 7.1 channels? In fact, wouldn't it know to use the 5.1 channels as well if that were all that were available to it? Isn't it always looking to use whatever channel/speaker configuration is on the other end of the system...64, 32, 10, even 7? And I assume it also knows what speakers are what type, i.e., bi-amped, full range, subbass, and adjusts what it sends to them as well, no?

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-21-2018, 04:57 PM:

quote: Michael Brown
The weird thing i've seen is a film come out in ATMOS and 5.1 - but no 7.1. We just had this with Jumanji 2 - there was an ATMOS, but then the regular version was only 5.1. Would have thought that if an ATMOS mix exists then there should be a 7.1 downmix avalible??

Yes, this was just laziness or sloppiness. It's always possible to extract a 7.1 downmix from a proper ATMOS mix.

quote: Frank Angel
Wouldn't the ATMOS processor know to just use the 7.1 channels? In fact, wouldn't it know to use the 5.1 channels as well if that were all that were available to it? Isn't it always looking to use whatever channel/speaker configuration is on the other end of the system...64, 32, 10, even 7? And I assume it also knows what speakers are what type, i.e., bi-amped, full range, subbass, and adjusts what it sends to them as well, no?

Yes, in a proper ATMOS setup you tell the processor where each speaker is located and how it is configured. It uses those variables when it maps the sound across the speaker array.

Although Dolby has some minimum configuration requirements for ATMOS equipped theaters, ATMOS could theoretically operate with just a single speaker. [Wink]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-21-2018, 06:31 PM:

I am sure exhibitors who for decades were using and front/surround configuration for Dolby Stereo -- one behind the screen plus surround -- will be very happy to hear this! [evil]

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-21-2018, 09:30 PM:

I doubt they will be buying a CP850 and Atmos license though.

Posted by Arian Berndt (Member # 10267) on 04-24-2018, 09:25 AM:

Well, the odd thing is - I Have an English 7.1 OV to start with,
then there's a choice of 5.1. and 7.1 German dubbed VFs
but the subtitled version (the one I want to play) only comes in 7.1 again. Heck why...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-24-2018, 02:10 PM:

Can you quote a full CPL name? The US 5.1 above is from DTB - Deluxe Technicolor Burbank - they sure know what they do.

- Carsten

Posted by Jesse Crooks (Member # 9389) on 04-25-2018, 05:57 PM:

My favorite are the mono rep titles that come in 2.0, which we see with some regularity. Most recently we received a 2.0 DCP of Bertolucci's The Conformist. When decoded the low frequencies were actually being pushed to the sub... the elusive 1.1 format!

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 11-22-2018, 09:27 AM:

The new Suspiria remake – another Amazon title – is also being released in 7.1 only here in Finland. I asked the distributor about it, and here's what they had been told (exact quote): "Your cinema systems will downscale the 7.1 to 5.1 so it should not be a problem."

Seriously, WTF Amazon [Confused]

Posted by Magnus Eriksson (Member # 6085) on 11-22-2018, 11:49 AM:

The same over here [bs]

/M.E.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 11-22-2018, 07:02 PM:

Here in the US, Universal has been sending out all their trailers in 7.1.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-23-2018, 05:28 AM:

You mean, 7.1 ONLY?

- Carsten

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 11-23-2018, 09:55 AM:

Yes, trailers in 7.1 only. Although, in looking at my notes of recent releases, I should say "If the feature will be 7.1, the trailers are 7.1-only. If the feature will be 5.1-only, trailers are 5.1."

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-23-2018, 06:04 PM:

You can play 7.1 in a 5.1 setup.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 11-23-2018, 11:01 PM:

Not the point.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-24-2018, 08:13 AM:

I don't know any server or CP that allows 7.1 to be played 'properly' in a 5.1 environment. Some dedicated QSYS setups certainly will allow to create a suitable downmix, but the general CP doesn't.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-24-2018, 08:51 AM:

You could also get a JSD-60 to do the downmix (it has that nifty matrix for setting what signal AND what level comes out of what output).

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-26-2018, 06:10 AM:

Adam - I assume ignorance on the part of Amazon and the like, but, for Universal, could this simply be a site/screen database issue? E.g. if you have a single 7.1 screen registered, would they simply skip supplying a 5.1 version even if there is one available?

How do you receive these trailers from Universal?

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 12-05-2018, 02:58 PM:

We receive the generic TrailMix hard drives, and I've definitely seen a number of trailers on those available only in 7.1. So, I don't think it's a site registration issue. I would argue a bit of a "who cares" in the case of trailers since they tend to overuse surround and LFE anyways... but not good in the case of features.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-05-2018, 07:15 PM:

I heard at a recent ISDCF meeting that some trailers are indeed only being delivered 7.1.

Harold

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-06-2018, 07:28 AM:

Someone should tell them that the typical cinema audio processor will NOT downmix to 5.1.

- Carsten

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-07-2018, 04:00 PM:

First time we now see 7.1 trailers here in germany, but always in addition to 5.1 versions. Yes, there had been some special 7.1 trailers occasionally for high profile releases like SW7 and the like. I think mostly these are generated from ATMOS 5.1/7.1 mixdowns in a more or less automated way without much special attention.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-09-2018, 09:16 AM:

DCI compliance rules state that 5.1 shall be the minimum requirements. It is not the cinemas at fault for not having 7.1 capability, it is those that only author in 7.1. If they want to mix in 7.1, that is fine but the distributor should be compelled to always have a 5.1 version of the mix, including trailers. Furthermore, this applies to all you 2.0 people out there. 2.0 is NOT a supported format in cinema, before authoring, run your "mix" through a 2:4 decoder so that if you really just have 2-channel mono, it comes out of Center only.