Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: VI Test File

This is topic VI Test File in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-21-2018, 03:50 PM:

We just had our new hearing assist devices installed. At the time of install, we didn't have any films or trailers with a VI track, so we didn't give it a full test. We currently have a movie that says it is 5.1_VI, but there is nothing but static in the headphones. It is a foreign language film, so maybe the VI was in Spanish and not included.
Is there a test file out there anyone has or knows about that we could ingest and test the VI system?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-21-2018, 06:39 PM:

Very easy to make your own with DCP-o-matic. While it may take a few minutes to learn it, you can at least be sure what you put into which audio channel.

Or, try this: http://isdcf.com/SMPTE-DCP-Content/SMPTE_TST-B1B2Q_S_EN-EN-CCAP_51-HI-VI_2K_ISDCF_20161007_TCF_SMPTE.zip

These 5.1 and 7.1 DCPs have all channels populated up to 14, aside from testing HI/VI channel assignment, they are also useful to check wether your server/audio processor uses proper channel mapping - HI/VI, Lc/Rc (9/10), DBOX and SMPTE SYNC tracks should not be audible in the auditorium speakers.

- Carsten

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 04-21-2018, 08:13 PM:

The Dolby 7.1 channel ID clip has "visually impaired" stated on channel 8 and "hearing impaired" on channel 7.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-21-2018, 09:32 PM:

Static is odd, you should just get silence if the wiring or configuration is off. How are you getting the HI/VI signals to your assistive system? This is not always simple.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 04-21-2018, 10:32 PM:

Some test content is also available at http://ftp.uslinc.com/ftp/TestContent/index.htm . Any more details on the system and how it is configured?,

Harold

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-22-2018, 02:18 PM:

quote: Stephan Shelley
The Dolby 7.1 channel ID clip has "visually impaired" stated on channel 8 and "hearing impaired" on channel 7.

I just looked up our Dolby 7.1 channel ID clip. It doesn't state HI or VI in the CPL, and channel 7/8 and 9/10 contain no audio. These 5.1 and 7.1 channel ID DCPs are pretty old, though, at least 5-6 years.

Admittedly, every 7.1 channel test DCP should have HI and VI populated with warnings so to easily recognize mapping/wiring issues.

- Carsten

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-24-2018, 11:34 AM:

Thanks for the files.
Using the SMPTE file I do not get anything on the VI track. Don't get anything on the HI track either, but that is because it is split off (see below). Do get sound for all of the appropriate channels through the headphones from the split off HI.

Waiting to hear back from our installer.

Setup is a Dolby CP-650 with an Odyssey digital board that the new HI/VI board rides on. The HI is split off input comes from the HI out on the CP 650 so we can use the HI for DVD's etc. Using QSC IRH-281 headphones.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-24-2018, 01:52 PM:

Martin - both CPLs of that SMPTE test package has audio on all 14 channels that make up the audio MXF files. Every channel carries a short attention signal and channel announcement. There is no simultaneous audio, though, so you need to listen through the whole DCP to get a chance to hear all channel indicators. But you know that already. HI and VI are on the same AES pair usually (if you don't use a special per-channel mapping in the server). So, if the HI is split off, I guess the VI is on the same split-off.

Do I remember right that you use a Christie IMB-S2? As Harold says, I guess we need to know a bit more about the system configuration and wiring.

- Carsten

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 04-27-2018, 03:20 PM:

Carston, The Dolby 7.1 channel ID does verbal ID the HI and VI channels. One I have heard it. Two here is the description from the Dolby Customer website:

Dolby Surround 7.1_F Channel ID (posted 16 April 2013)

This Test Chart can also be used to verify correct routing of Hearing Impaired (HI) and Visually Impaired Narration (VI-N) channels

Was the system you are referring two have the ch 11/12 rerouted to 7/8 for 7.1?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-27-2018, 05:42 PM:

Stephan - the Dolby channel ID DCP that I have simply are different from those you know, that's all. I know for sure that mine do not include any audio on the HI and VI channels because I loaded the bare audio MXFs into an editor. There is nothing.

I mentioned this explicitly so that no one is lead into thinking that any Dolby channel ID has signals on HI/VI. Martin has a config/wiring issue to solve, so he has to be absolutely sure that his testfiles do contain HI and VI on the proper channels.

- Carsten

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 04-27-2018, 06:17 PM:

The ones in the Dolby Surround 7.1 Audio Test Content folder on the Dolby Customer web site is a source for the test material asked about.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-27-2018, 07:34 PM:

I do believe you Stephan, if Martin has access to that Dolby site, he is free to use them for additional confirmation.

- Carsten

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-28-2018, 08:53 AM:

I'll give the Dolby site a check.
Meanwhile, turns out when we were originally wired up for Digital, the 7/8 pairs were not connected. So we most likely will be getting a new cable and that should solve the problem.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-02-2018, 12:10 PM:

really? your installer missed that?

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 05-02-2018, 12:54 PM:

At the time we didn't need them, and I didn't know that we would.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 05-16-2018, 10:08 AM:

So, we are cabled up and the VI checks out with the SMPTE loop.
Since then, I've had two features labeled VI, but nothing on the track. Is this common? We do mostly arthouse, so most films do not have VI. How common is it in commercial releases and does anyone check?

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 05-16-2018, 05:31 PM:

You might check server routing. With Interop, servers generally do no routing. Track 1 goes to AES/EBU 1, track 2 to AES/EBU 2, etc. But, with SMPTE packages, the server may do routing based on the audio configuration of the composition. ISDCF is recommending use of audio configuration 4 (Wild Track Format) with the tracks in the same order as Interop. This SHOULD allow both SMPTE and Interop content to play properly.

Test content and an explanation of that content is available at http://isdcf.com/t/SMPTE-DCP-Tests/ .

Good luck!

Harold

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-17-2018, 06:48 PM:

Martin - where these two features labelled with VI even SMPTE DCPs?

I believe that every feature labelled 'VI' should have audio on that track.

- Carsten

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 05-31-2018, 11:02 AM:

Sorry, missed this when you posted a couple of weeks ago. I do not have the ones I referenced on my server anymore, but I don't believe they were SMPTE.

The film I'm currently showing is IOP. It is labelled as having VI (US-1351-VI_2K) but nothing coming through on the headphones.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-31-2018, 11:18 AM:

Is anyone using the channel 7 HI track for the HI system, or is everyone using the HI output from the processor? The latter makes more sense to me, since it would still work for alternative content, microphone feeds, movies on film, DCPs not encoded with an HI track, etc., but channel 7 presumably exists to provide an optimized mix for HI purposes...right?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-31-2018, 12:31 PM:

It depends. The Dolby/Doremi system makes it more challenging to use anything but the HI track. It was set up as a quick/dirty install. They provide a box to breakout 7/8 and 15/16 from either a DB25 or RJ45 system (separate boxes, specify at time of order) and from that box, it is a pair of coax cables to the transmitter (all digital, never becomes analog until it hits the receivers).

That said, most of the systems where we used the Doremi system, we did put in the extra equipment to decode the signal to analog (or used the CP750's ability to do so) and then put in an A/D converter to send it to the transmitter so that the HI signal could come from the Cinema processor as well as mix in other feeds in a live theatre)\.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-31-2018, 03:20 PM:

Question:

In the CPL naming string:

wouldn't HI be hearing impaired and VI for visual impaired along with CCAP for Closed Captions?

We use the USL headsets and the USL Visual readers.

thx-Monte

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 05-31-2018, 04:27 PM:

Yes, HI, VI, and CCAP in the Digital Cinema Naming Convention mean Hearing Impaired, Visually Impaired, and Closed Captioning. See http://isdcf.com/dcnc/ .

Harold

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-01-2018, 07:09 PM:

So, is an HI track standard in big-studio-release DCPs now?

Regardless, I suppose that the ideal situation would be to default to this, with a silence detector/relay box that will switch to the HI output from the processor after a specific amount of time. I wonder if anyone has actually done this in a normal cinema.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 06-01-2018, 09:14 PM:

The QSC JSD-100 does this. If you select the HI source as AES7, and LCR mix is substantially louder (20 dB I think), it will use the LCR mix.

Harold

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-23-2018, 10:01 AM:

Bumping this up because still having a problem.

We get very few films with VI tracks, so testing has been erratic.

Did get a SMPTE VI film and the VI worked as expected.

Emailing back and forth with Christie, they suggested putting the VI-IOP in all the channels to see if it is indeed there and is coming out. Got a VI-IOP feature and tried it, and got VI everywhere but the VI channel.

They the suggested putting the regular channels into the VI to see what happens. Tried it with LCR individually and got nothing.

So, we know VI is there (for VI-IOP features). We know it works right with SMPTE VI, but we can't get it to map to the proper channel for IOP-VI.

I didn't mention our setup earlier. Christie Solaria One. Dolby CP650 with Odyessy 650-OPTIO-AES board. QSC-28C hearing assistance transmitter.

Because we do Blu/Ray screenings frequently, our Hearing Impaired signal is from the CP650 H/I output, not of the AES board. Can that be causing the problem with the VI? Should something be jumped that isn't or vice versa?

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 10-23-2018, 11:24 AM:

What is the full model number of the OPTIO-AES? Looking at http://www.odyssey-products.com/products/circuit_boards/dolby_processors/cp650/option_i_o_boards.html , I don't see any with D/A converters. The IRC-28C audio inputs are analog. You should be able to hang a pair of headphones across the IRC-28C input to hear the VI audio (the CM-8E monitor includes HI and VI inputs making routine listening to these signals easier).

Harold

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-23-2018, 11:39 AM:

Harold: it's the
650-OPTIO-AES-RJ

There is also a daughter board that sits between the main board AES and the AES cable. This has a split off that connects to an ODY D2A that feeds to Channel B in the emitter. Channel A gets the HI from the CP650.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 10-23-2018, 11:52 AM:

The ODY-D2A sounds like a D/A, but I do not find it on http://www.odyssey-products.com/ . You SHOULD be able to hear audio on the pair driving the IRC-28C with headphones. If not, the problem is before the IRC. If you can, the problem is with the IRC. You can check the IRC by swapping the channel A and B audio inputs at the IRC. That should put HI on channel B. If that works, the IRC is working properly.

Could be issues with the D/A, wiring, routing in the server, etc.

Good luck!!!

Harold

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-23-2018, 01:45 PM:

Tried switching the inputs. Got HI, no VI.

Could it just be a jumper problem? I can't see the model# on the splitter board, and don't want to take everything apart right now. I'll ask the installer.

What does SMPTE do different than IOP that let's me get the SMPTE VI?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-23-2018, 02:06 PM:

Servers may apply a different audio routing depending on the feature being SMPTE or Interop. Then, Servers may act unexpectedly playing SMPTE and Interop content. There's this weird issue Rhonda has with one of her Christie IMB-S2.: http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=003420#000000

Again, Martin, create your own test HI/VI DCPs with DCP-o-matic! That way you always have them at hand, you know what's in them, and you can set them up exactly the way you need them.

- Carsten

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-23-2018, 09:37 PM:

SMPTE packages have channel routing included as metadata. Servers can treat internal routing mapping ok for IOP packages but ignore it for SMPTE packages. I've found inconsistencies, so we try to use the Odyssey board that does hard wired remapping of 11 and 12 to 7 and 8, this works with no server remapping for IOP and SMPTE DCPs.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-24-2018, 03:23 AM:

And by the way - NATO has just declared April 9/2019 as the final deadline for Interop->SMPTE transition:

https://www.dcinematools.com/index.php?option=com_attachments&task=download&id=11

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for some reason, copying the original text from the linked PDF is not possible on my system, even after conversion to different formats...
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- Carsten

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-24-2018, 10:05 AM:

So, NATO says all theatres should be converted. Does this mean all DCP processing houses will be sending SMPTE DCPs?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-24-2018, 02:34 PM:

yeah.
"Voluntary" deadline. Roughly 350 "cinema locations" that are not ready for SMPTE packages, to be "encouraged to prepare". And this is only for NATO territory... USA and Canada.
After some experience with cinema operators, I expect only a total end to IOP packages can pry any cash from their pockets to become SMPTE ready.
As usual it's an economic argument. How much does it cost to carry dual inventory and to supply a few hundred screens with IOP DCPs and KDMs vs how much do those screens earn for the studios?