Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DP3000 Server Options

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Posted by Russell Kalman (Member # 8383) on 05-07-2018, 02:31 PM:

Greetings!
I have a client who owns the D-Cinema gear at our local Historical Theater. They are adamant they I replace the Dolby DSS/DSP100 with something new and 4K capable.
(New projector in 18-24 months)

That being said, is there such a beast that can be a drop-in replacement and work and play well with a Barco DP3000?

Thank you all for your wisdom.
Cheers

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-07-2018, 03:46 PM:

4k implies an IMB/IMS, and IMB/IMS don't go with a DP3000. So, in short words, no.
Not immediately, at least. Then again, if the DP3000 will go, why not wait until then with the server replacement as well?

There are some recent offerings that seem to support series1 projectors, while being IMB/IMS based and supporting 4k with a later projector upgrade. However, I don't know which of those are ACTUALLY now available and work reliably. They'd work such that you'd put an IMB/IMS into a standalone housing with a power supply, and connect HD-SDI cables to the series1 projector. Again, I only know these solutions from their brochues, no idea wether you can actually buy them now.

Another solution would be e.g. to buy a second hand server, e.g. a Dolby DSS200 or Doremi DCP2000 or DCP-2K4. There is a possible later upgrade path for an IMB and 4k then.
Or, you sell the DP3000+server then, and buy a new Barco with an integrated ICMP/IMS.

There are chances that, when you later shop for a 4k projector, that your server will be phased out again for other reasons (storage limits, possible limitations of the new projector).

- Carsten

Posted by Russell Kalman (Member # 8383) on 05-07-2018, 04:10 PM:

Thank you Carsten.
I have lobbied vigorously for doing the whole server/projector replacement, but people with much fancier job titles than mine have decreed that our server is evil and should be replaced.

I have also been advised that Dolby does have a series one adapter solution for the show vault for not too many USD.
Cheers
Russ

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-07-2018, 06:41 PM:

I can only assume that this adapter solution is actually a Dolphin card, the 'classic' Doremi server integrated media block? Would they actually build a sleeve for their IMB, and add all the necessary framework between IMB and projector, when their existing dolphin card achieves the same?

http://digicine.com/mediaplayer/

- Carsten

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-07-2018, 08:49 PM:

Dolby can't supply DCP-2000 systems now, apparently because motherboards that will support a Dophin card are no longer available. They may have a few of the Supermicro X7SB4 in stock for warranty servers but if your DCP-2000 motherboard dies their answer for S2 is a new motherboard and IMB - conversion to a Showvault. I have heard of some solution whether existing or in the works to deal with series 1 projectors but have not seen one.
DP3000 - utterly evil.
For 4K there isn't any way for a dual SDI to work with existing projector hardware - it should be possible with newer SDI versions as the bandwidth has been upped a lot, but there's no real market reason to produce new boards with this SDI capability.
I'm not sure why a DSS/DSP 100 is evil... not my cup o' tea but they have proven pretty reliable.
I would call Dolby and ask what solution they have for S1 in a new server. Interested in the answer.
DP3000? Utterly evil.

Posted by Martin Murray (Member # 162) on 05-08-2018, 12:29 AM:

DP3000 evil? absolutely! if it becomes a unit that is for sale, I'm a buyer,same goes for the dss/dsp100 always need parts....unfortunately.
Not sure what off the shelf server you will find for series 1 with sdi inputs at this time.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-08-2018, 07:06 AM:

Currently, GDC can supply S1 server(s). The SX2001A is available and sports SDI outputs. It doesn't do 4K BUT it can be converted to a SX2000AR, with the purchase of the IMB of the 2000AR and become a 4K server.

The new GDC SR-1000, if shipping, can also go both ways. While in S1 mode, they make (or are making) a dock for it to handle the ins/outs/power.

I guess I'm in the long line of "what are they thinking?" If the DP3000 is to be retired, retire it and the server together rather than spend/waste money on a solution that requires spending yet again when the projector is changed. Furthermore, technology rarely benefits buying ahead of time. If the DP3000 goes another 2-years, who knows what servers will be attractive for the projector purchased at that time.

If the DSS100/DSP100 are working, then let them continue to do so. What do you have to feed them? HDD? (cheap), BIOS battery? (cheap), maybe memory? (only if a problem shows up)? Fans (cheap). Software? (4.7.x.x is the end of the line so if you are on it, it is good and stable.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-08-2018, 08:58 AM:

Russell, along the same lines as all the rest of the advice here, can you tell us WHY they think the DSS100 is evil? In other words, what is the evil behavior? It's likely hard drives that are old and failing, and you could put a set of new (proper type) drives in there, run a clean install and be just fine and perfectly stable.

It's silly to swap a server now and then the projector later. With you being series 1, that seriously restricts your options now AND in the future if you get a new server now.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-08-2018, 09:31 AM:

Also, technology is changing and "series 3" projectors are coming - arguably a Barco with their ICMP is one, available for quite a while.
It really makes sense to wait until ready to do a full upgrade. Hopefully it isn't a workaround for budgeting or to expend remaining allocations before a budget year wraps up?
A new server offers no operational benefit over your "evil" Dolby used with a DP3000.
DP3000: why does it have a diabolical cooling system, and where the heck is the flow switch? Why is the 12V power out jack - identical to the DCTP power in jack - wired in reverse so a straight-thru cable puts reversed power to the DCTP (and why is the DCTP not protected so it doesn't puff smoke when that happens...)? why does it love to crash the controller on lamp strike? Because evil.

Posted by Russell Kalman (Member # 8383) on 05-08-2018, 10:53 AM:

Brad,
The DSS100 went down two years ago right before our annual classic movie festival. Although I was able to obtain service at a reasonable rate and excellent turn around they, the powers that be, have been frightened of a repeat occurrence during this years fest.

Dave,
You are pretty much right on the mark as to why they are in a hurry to buy. But their time constraints are no reason to buy something that doesn't work.
I wholeheartedly agree that the project should be the entire chain, not just a piece.
And the cooling system. Argh.
Russ

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-08-2018, 02:06 PM:

Assuming you have a compatible interface card for DCI compatibility, I know we rent servers... someone in the great state of Texas must do the same? You could have a backup server in case of problems...

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 05-10-2018, 04:56 PM:

I agree with others about doing both server and projector at the same time. DSS/DSP 100s are not evil. There are plenty in regular service still. I have two that run in a first run theatre that shows every day/night. One other than hard drives has worked flawlessly. The other has gone through several motherboards. Their biggest drawback is that they can not play 25 or 30 fps jpeg 2000 DCPs and the limitation on hard drive space as it will only recognize 500 MB on each drive.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-10-2018, 07:57 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
WHY they think the DSS100 is evil?

Thats rediclous, ita a great server! I still have one running in Wyoming. But the DP-1000, 2000 are absolute piles of crap! Hopefully the 3000 is better, but I;m not going to let any of my customers find out if it is or not. I feel sorry for anyone that buys the DP-1000 & 2000.

Mark

Posted by Russell Kalman (Member # 8383) on 05-11-2018, 09:52 AM:

I discovered the frame rate limitation of the DP100 three years ago when showing Oklahoma at a film festival with Shirley Jones scheduled to attend.
Bad Day.

That has subject has been brought up often.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-11-2018, 10:24 AM:

So it can't play a frame rate that DCI spec, while doesn't preclude, does require a 24 or 48 fps version to be available, as well. Same with sound. It is fine to have a special sound format BUT a 5.1 (compatible) version has to be available as well.

The fault wasn't the server, it was the content provider. Yes, it doesn't help a bad situation to quote chapter and verse but it does point out that just because you buy something new, it too won't be tripped up by a non-standard format.

How many of you all made 2.00:1 and 2.20:1 screen files and lens settings when those formats came out? And for 2.20, did you do Scope AND Flat variations (or full container)?

If you are going to play classic titles that may tax DCI compliant systems or new titles that will want the latest and greatest, then yes, the DSS100/DSP100 is not the best choice. it is stuck in its time period.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-11-2018, 10:54 AM:

Russel - how often did you come across the 24/48fps limitation in that specific venue you are asking for? Yes, this may be a bit more severe in PAL countries, Europe,Australia, etc. where we often get ads and documentaries in 25fps. But, other than that...

I see no trouble to put the DSS100 to a shelf as a spare. However, I simply don't think it's a good idea to shop now for a server that needs to be future/4k proof, and at the same time to support a series 1 machine. That's one constraint too much I think.

Also, first thing to check is the board set in the DP3000 - if you get a server that is recent on it's software and media block firmware, you may not be able to operate the DP3000 with encrypted content at all if the DP3000 doesn't feature e.g. the latest FFIB/GoreBoard supporting Cinelink II TLS. Some of those servers then do not allow to downgrade the software to a DP3000/series 1 compatible version.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-11-2018, 11:39 AM:

Most GDC servers can do 30 fps. The SX-3000 for sure can do it.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-11-2018, 12:29 PM:

Remember Mark, the odd requirement here is to support a series 1 projector for a period of time first. So no on the SX-3000.

However, The SX2001A. They don't list 30fps there either though I think it CAN do it.

With the amount of home-brew content for preshow out there, I'd think 30fps on a new system would be a good thing since I see said home-brew content coming in at 30fps

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-13-2018, 11:04 AM:

As far as full size GDC servers go the SX-2001, SA-2001A, 2000-AR will all do 30 fps 2-D. All the plug in servers, the SX-1000, SX-3000 and SX-4000 will also play 30 fps 2-D. I think the SX-2001 got 30fps added as one of the 8.01-Build XX firmware updates.

Back about 2010 I ran into the need for 30 fps 2-D for a film festival in St, George. UT. Back then Version 7.8 could not handle 30 fps, but could handle 29.97. I can't remember if they skipped running that movie or if they sent it out for conversion some where...

Mark

Posted by Russell Kalman (Member # 8383) on 06-18-2018, 05:22 PM:

Update:
They heard me.
Going for ShowVault and DP4K32B
Our vendor is probably unintentionally directing me to an incorrect audio interface.
We have CP650. Adding 650OptioAES.
Should just need the 2xRJ45 to DB25 adapter, Yes?
They are saying something else, but what do I know.

Carsten,
Just once did I have a frame rate issue.

Oklahoma.

Had to play a DVD.

Not good

Cheers All!

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-18-2018, 05:48 PM:

Presumably you are adding a Dolby CAT790 card to get digital audio input.
If so:
The digital inputs are on the "OPTION CARD I/O" connector on the CP750. The CAT790 card also adds EX and Digital 7.1 capability, and the SL, SR, BSL, and BSR surround outputs are now also on the "OPTION CARD I/O" connector. The other LS/RS surround outputs on the main output connector are no longer usable.
Thus the connector is rather busy and is NOT a standard pinout that the simple 2xRJ45-DB25 adapter expects. You need a hand wired DB25 connector (not fun) or an Odyssey card set that will straighten everything out. What cards you need depend on what the sound feeds into, terminal strips to the amps, DB cable to a monitor or monitor/crossover. I strongly recommend you call Mark at Odyssey and tell him exactly what equipment you have, he will tell you what's required. The Odyssey cards can have transformers that avoid matching problems between the AES signals and S/PDIF inputs.
You may also want a software update for the CP650 to get the most from the unit with a CAT790, this comes at a nominal price.You get EX capability for film and 7.1 capability for digital.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-18-2018, 06:30 PM:

Russel - you had a DSP100/CP650 combo before - no idea why you would need a new/different digital audio interface now with the Show Vault - a suitable cable should suffice indeed. But maybe that is what they actually suggest. Yes, 1 or 2*RJ45 to DB25. Odyssey has them. 650-OPTIO-AES-RJ. Might get complicated if you want to do 7.1 and HI/VI-N. If in doubt, just call Odyssey yourself and they will help.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-18-2018, 07:00 PM:

The CP650 is unbalanced AES in. The DSP100 could do unbalanced out. The ShowVault is going to be AES3 (balanced) out and one will want the transformers to go from 110/75 Ohm. The current form of the Option IO AES has the RJs so you can do it all with CAT cable, if desired.

Posted by Russell Kalman (Member # 8383) on 06-18-2018, 07:55 PM:

Thanks gentlemen,
I have reached out to Odyssey via email as it is after hours.
Did I mention that there is also a DMA8plus in this marriage?
Largely for external inputs from a user panel on the rack. Digital film tracks, DVD, BluRay and VHS, etc.
Cheers

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-19-2018, 06:40 AM:

So, in your existing setup, the audio from the DSP100 went through the DMA8, then entered the CP650 as multichannel analog? That might be the reason they suggest the digital input card for the CP650? Although it's not strictly necessary.

- Carsten

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-19-2018, 07:24 AM:

Maybe you want to add 7.1? I don't think the CP650 analog inputs that a DMA8+ connects to support that. And it will make programming a bit easier, you can tell the CP650 what server audio format to use and not have to worry about the DMA8 being on the right input. Most everything else (except film, do you still have film projection?) could go through the DMA8+. Nice setup. There have been problems with digital audio on a CP650 but it seems very rare and I haven't encountered this.

Posted by Russell Kalman (Member # 8383) on 06-19-2018, 09:51 AM:

Carsten,
Only external digital inputs (s/pdif) and film tracks went through the DMA8plus. The SP100 connects with 4xBNC to the CP650 Option card.

Dave,
Yes, we still have film. We have a classic film festival that begins August 1. When I first came on board to do Digital (nobody else wanted to do it) the film to DCP ratio was 75% to 25%. This ratio is now reversed.

As far as 5.1 audio goes we only do it on special occasions or if there is a technical rider requiring it. The amplifier room in our restored movie house is about 120 meters away and only 4 balanced lines were provided by the contractor. (LRCS)
For 5.1 we run Ls Rs under the booth doors to powered EV-ETX on stands. We got that Idea from the Broadway shows that visit the venue.
Cheers

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-19-2018, 05:47 PM:

Yes, I know that Dolby have just ended official support for them, but if you could obtain a used DSS200 plus a cat745 IMB, you would have the following advantages:

- The Show Manager software would look and behave almost identically to that of the existing DSP/DSL100, so no operator retraining would be needed.

- With the current software version (4.9.1), it fully supports SMPTE DCPs and all frame rates up to 60.

- You could use the built-in (cat862) media block with the DP3000 until you upgrade the projector to a Series 2 model, and then switch to the cat745 IMB at that point.

- You can put as large hard drives in it as you like (at least, I've put drives up to 8 x 6TB in a DSS200 after replacing the 4-port 3Ware RAID card with an 8-port one, and they've worked without issue, providing about 33TB of usable space).

The fact that you are not replacing the projector and server simultaneously rules out an IMS, which would be the likely route to go if you were.

If you were to do that, I would suggest replacing the hard drives, fans, and PSUs with new ones on installation, though.

EDIT - just seen your update, and that you are going the Doremi route. I don't like them as much as the DSS line, but it's probably the sensible choice, given that the software is still actively being supported and updated.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-19-2018, 10:16 PM:

And parts & support for the DSS-200 ends???

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-20-2018, 08:38 AM:

Oh calm down Mark. 1) I have not received any removal of support notice on the DSS200/DSS220 and related. When the products were discontinued, they stated that they would support them a minimum of 3-years after discontinuation (not a maximum). So perhaps you have inside knowledge?

To the best of my knowledge, 4.9.2 will be issued this year.

Parts wise, other than the CAT862 or CAT745, I can't think of much in the DSS line I'd source from Dolby. They are off-the-shelf parts or Super Micro parts. And, the reality of the situation, they just don't break like other servers. The biggest consumption item are the hard drives...again, not normally sourced from Dolby and they publish a current recommended drive list for them.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-20-2018, 10:14 AM:

I was actually given a date once that past that parts will be available if they still have them in stock 2019 or 20920 comes to mind. As nice and shiny as Dolbly's GUI may be, I just can't see in this day and age of pushing what will soon be an obsolete piece of gear. DC gear in general has a short enough life span as it is. And Doremi is even worse about this.

I'll add that so far GDC is the only supplier that has been able to keep any of their units fully functioning and still supply parts and support for all of them to date [Big Grin]

. How can they do that?

Mark

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-20-2018, 10:47 AM:

"Going for ShowVault and DP4K32B"

Why are you still trying to sell him on an EOL Dolby DSS, and keeping an obsolete DP3000?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-20-2018, 11:16 AM:

Mark, thus far, I've yet to retire any DSS200/DSS220 servers. I can't claim the same of the GDC. Failure rates are not even in the same ballpark. We, recently, saw an uptick in CAT745 issues (read 2 units) but Dolby repaired for very low $$$ (couple hundred, as I recall).

Note, It would appear that GDC is removing the SX2001 and SX2000AR and SX3000 from their line up in 2018 in favor of the SR1000 (new) and SX4000 (existing and primarily to serve DTS-X theatres).

OT...the SR1000 might be the type of server to get because it can handle Series 1 (with its dock) or Series 2 (it is an IMB so it can fit into a standard IMB card slot).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-21-2018, 11:48 AM:

Out of 334 GDC installs, I've had approximately two media blocks fail in old servers. Although these were just early dead battery certificate loss type of failures, both customers chose the new route and one of those old GDC servers has been functioning really well as a TMS for going on three years. Both those could have been put back in service if they had wanted to with either a replacement media block or the IMB upgrade kit. And unlike you, I have not had a single IMB media block failure. I think they do get better cooling in the NEC's than in the other two brands though... And I am still awaiting edge connector issues. Now, I have treated all the drive in location NEC edge connectors with De-Oxit at the suggestion of a long time NEC employee "down under". But no others...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-21-2018, 12:01 PM:

I've definitely had SX2001 mediablocks fail (Several), IMBs fail (2000AR and SX3000). In fact, with the SX3000, there is no part of it I haven't had fail (PSD, drives and the 3000 itself). It is telling that the 3000 makes its exit this year.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-21-2018, 12:43 PM:

Well, none have failed here, and with 334 installs... you would think one or two would have failed. But no. So it has to be the projectors that have inadaquate air flow that these are failing in. Christies are famous for media block failures, usually their own media block though, but more likely failure from the board being mounted in a vertical position. Hot running parts don't always cool properly that way.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-21-2018, 12:47 PM:

Mark - please stop with this nonstop trolling and constant GDC/NEC salesman thing you keep doing. We get it.

To summarize:
*Any GDC or NEC equipment installed and/or serviced by Mark Gulbrandsen never, ever, ever, ever, ever fails.

*Any equipment which is NOT GDC or NEC installed and/or serviced by Mark Gulbrandsen is total shit and fails constantly and anyone that uses them is a total idiot.

We got it! Please stop.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-21-2018, 10:45 PM:

I have to agree with Mark about the vertically mounted contents of Christie card cages, though. On the very rare occasions that I have to touch a Christie (one of my co-workers is the resident Christie expert, and he is usually sent on the calls that involve tangling with one), the problem is almost always an IMB or an ICP gone bad.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-21-2018, 11:58 PM:

There may be something to that. The two CAT745s that I had fail were both in Christies. Thus far, no ICP failures in Christie though. I've had them fail in NEC and Barco though.