Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: projection advice

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Posted by Armand Daiguillon (Member # 10334) on 06-30-2018, 03:49 PM:

Hello all,

I need some of your super knowledgeable advice.
I was a booth tech and then a theatre manager for many years.
I am now planning to open up a theatre, but building from scratch in the digital cinema age
is not as easy as i'd like.

I'm planning on making small auditoriums, (48 seats) approx dimension are 23W x 45L.
My first question is regarding the projectors - i'm planning on using Barco DP2k-6E projectors.
The Barco supplier claims these are quiet enough to not need to be in a separate booth.
They say that with the cinema server that it comes with I can mount it from the ceiling within the auditorium
and run it remotely via LAN connection from a PC.
So, first question ...does that sound feasible ?
Is it really quiet enough to be ceiling mounted within the auditorium?

And can I truly run everything remotely? And never have to touch the unit once hung ?

Second question, regarding sight lines and height...
The ceilings/walls are 11 feet high (might be able to get another foot if remove ceiling tiles..but for now say 11 feet)
If my first row is located at ground height 10 feet from the screen - how close to the ground can the screen extend ?

In this scenario the projector is mounted 30 feet from screen.
Its these screen dimensions im strugling with. I'm concerned that if someone tall sits in front row I dont want to see their head shadow on the screen.

Also is 30 feet a safe/proper distance for the projector ?

And - lastly ...how low from the ceiling would I need to mount the projector to avoid too great an angle ?

Do any of you see a way to make this work with these dimensions, without making the screen too tiny ?

Thanks !!!!

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 06-30-2018, 04:44 PM:

Call me old fashion but having the projector where one can work on it is a good idea. If you read through these threads you will find the idea that you install it and never have to touch it again is not correct. At the very least you need to change or clean the filters every 6 months.

If you are going to have special events or run blu-rays or pro res from a computer it is good to at least have control where you can see what is going on.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-30-2018, 05:32 PM:

A place I formerly worked had a small Christie projector weighed "only 80 lbs."

My boss wanted it mounted in the theater, suspended from the ceiling, against my objections. I tried to tell him that servicing it would be a PITA but he wanted it where people could see it so he could show it off.

The first time I had to change the lamp it took three people and two ladders to dismount the thing and bring it down to ground level. It only took me ten minutes to do the work then we had to put it back up again.

We spent a half hour getting out all the laders, tools and equipment to get it down and another half hour to put it up and put everything away.

If I had my way, with the projector mounted on a stand in the booth, the job would have been done in fifteen minutes instead of an hour.

Don't forget... You're also going to need special hardware that is strong enough to mount it so that it will withstand the weight.

My projector "only" weighed 80 lbs. but it took a whole day to build the mounts, affix them to the concrete wall with special anchors, plus safety cables.

I can't imagine what it's going to take to mount a full-size DLP so that it will be safe!

If you REALLY want to mount it overhead, be my guest. [Wink]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-01-2018, 12:17 AM:

I can't answer your screen question, but about the ceiling mounting thing... call me old fashioned too, but to me the projection booth with that beam of light coming out of that little square window is part of the magic of the movies. If you put the projector in plain sight hanging from the ceiling, it'll ruin that magic and will look like somebody's old fashioned living room video projector. In ADDITION to being a pain in the butt for servicing.

The booth is handy for servicing, plus it makes a great storage space for random stuff you hardly ever need, but when you do need it, it's convenient... spare lamp bulbs and such.

Also you didn't ask for input on this, and you didn't say how many screens you're considering, but 48 seats per auditorium seems awful small. Depending on what kind of content you're going to be offering, if I were doing it I would have at least a quarter of my auditoriums be much larger, say 120 to 150 seats.

If we had 48 seats here, we would have had about 18 sellouts over the past 2 weeks, and had a lot of irritated people in the bargain. And we're in a town of about 1800 people. You're in a city of almost 100,000, so unless you're planning on running nothing but very esoteric art fare, or second run way off the break, I'd reconsider the seat counts.

You might say, "well the average multiplex screen only has 40 or so people a night" and you'd probably be right about that, but when you need more seats you REALLY need them. There's been a lot of times I've wished we had about 250 seats. Also, more seats will raise your gross potential which will make it easier for you to book your product on a timely basis.

Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 07-01-2018, 12:31 AM:

Armand, have you reached out to Steve Krams of Magna-Tech? He's in Miami and would be a good resource for you to find some direction for what you want to do.

Posted by Armand Daiguillon (Member # 10334) on 07-01-2018, 02:53 AM:

Let me elaborate on the concept a bit.
I'm looking to do 7 auditoriums with 48 seats each.
It would be booked as a 4 plex with 3 auditoriums to handle overflow (sync as needed among the 3 overflows)
48 is a magic # for seating because anything over 48 seats requires 2 entrances/exits. (one can be emergency only, but because of layout constrictions they have to only have one entrance/exit).
But in this case the model is to pack as many small theatres into a small space to reduce overhead. Having the projector in the auditorium helps with that because booths take up space...which in this case is at a premium.
If needed I might be able to put it in a separate booth. but my biggest concern is still how low to the floor can the screen be without being a problem for the 1st row located 10 feet behind the screen. I can't find exact guidance on that anywhere.
I was hoping one of the film wizards here might know [Smile]

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-01-2018, 08:50 AM:

You need to do some side sectional drawings to figure your site lines. A typical person is a 3 foot 9 inch height when seated and a ray tracing from that height to screen bottom will give you some info.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 07-01-2018, 12:23 PM:

I'm surprised that any number of people would be allowed without a second exit being provided, especially with an assembly occupancy.

My screen might be about the size that you're looking at in those rooms, though I have 153 seats here.

This is my screen.

The (visible part of the) screen is 20 feet.

The front of the stands for the first row of seats is 13.5 ft back from the screen.

The screen is 49.5 inches from the floor to the bottom of the screen.

The floor to ceiling height is 16 feet and the auditorium is about 60 feet long.

Tall people standing up in the front row can cast a shadow on the screen. Fortunately, mostly kids sit there so that doesn't usually matter.

Posted by Frank Bolkovac (Member # 6201) on 07-01-2018, 03:23 PM:

Put the projector in a climate controlled booth! Can you imagine the dust and dirt it will inhale?? This is not to mention some nut throwing something at it because they didn't like the show.
Saw holes in screens that way.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 07-01-2018, 04:18 PM:

Do everything you can to stay away from having to mount your projectors in the theater. They are very very noisy, let alone the trouble of having to service them. They belong in a booth with ventilation.

Start out with some drawings to get your sight lines/viewing angles in order.

Posted by Armand Daiguillon (Member # 10334) on 07-01-2018, 04:46 PM:

I hear what you guys are saying about the projector location [Smile]

Is there some guidelines/regulation for how many feet of clearance over someones head the projector beam should be ?

The plan right now is to have the screen start at 48'' off the ground, with the 1st row being 10 feet back from there. Does that seem good ?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-01-2018, 05:07 PM:

That should be good if everyone is seated, but a standing person might get in the beam.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-01-2018, 06:28 PM:

Where is Monte Fullmer...? He has a fleet of ceiling mounted Barco's to maintain in Boise and we should let him speak from experience. Also, those motorized ceiling mounts are expensive!

Mark

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 07-01-2018, 08:15 PM:

The 6E is actually quiet enough to be in the auditorium but servicing it gets quite difficult.
You need about 8" absolute minimum free space above it to do convergence (otherwise it must come down), plus access on all sides for relamping and less regular maintenance tasks.
Air filter will clog up fast with auditorium air - you will need a spare: they are washable but take a day to dry. The projector will get generally much dirtier compared to being in a booth with little traffic.
So yes, it is possible, but for many reasons preferable to have the projector in a separate booth.
One major thing is giving the public access to it... people here will steal or vandalize pretty much anything. You can still run shows with the toilet mirrors broken or some speakers stolen but without a lens or a working projector you're shut down.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-01-2018, 10:31 PM:

I'm the digital guru at my 15 screen plex and yes, we are a booth less operation.

I have all kinds of installs.

Units mounted on platforms in between the lobby wall and auditorium wall shooting 50 ft to a 70 ft wide screen. I use an 8ft stepladder to get up in the cavity to the unit for mnt and bulb.

I have two that are in dog houses mounted high where the bottom is on an elevator that drops to allow the mnt and bulb.

I have two that are in closets with slider platforms for the units to come out. These are my favotite.

One is in a closet mounted on a platform 18 ft off the ground. We have an extension ladder built in the wall where we climb up to the platform.

The rest are in doghouse up in the balcony section in the middle of the seating area. These units are mounter on hoists where the lid of the doghouse comes off and we raise the projector.

This place keeps you busy. Oh. We have a main TMS downsrairs, thus if a transfer fails, you have to ALL the way up with HD sled and cable and attach this to the local server...lots fun.

My advice : Do A BOOTH !

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 07-02-2018, 01:34 PM:

I service a few of these. Some screening rooms with a 6E in the room, these are no problem because only staff and clients get in them and there's not much traffic.The 6E projector is very quiet.
Some with S or 12C projectors in hush boxes up high. Not so easy to service but not a big issue... these boxes are fed filtered HVAC air and have an exhaust so they don't get auditorium air. The hush boxes attenuate the sound very well, one has a MI 3D unit and the whirling disc is audible... but they won't be making more of those.
It would still be easier overall with the projector in a booth, convergence is a PITA and I wouldn't want to change a light engine. A bigger water cooled model would be a challenge for coolant changes.

Posted by Bruce Cloutier (Member # 9615) on 07-04-2018, 08:33 AM:

This might not be helpful but isn't this the market where the LED screens might shine? (haha sorry) I mean at CinemaCon Samsung had a great looking screen and Sony showed one at InfoComm. Both were extremely impressive at least in a small room (booth). Okay so the price has to come way down. And it will.

There are audio challenges. They seem to have options in reflecting sound off of the screen. Might ultimately have added surround value.

Yeah, it's just a large TV. As such it opens up a lot of content sources to help fill theaters.

Just my thoughts if am I allowed to comment outside of my expertise.

Posted by Armand Daiguillon (Member # 10334) on 07-04-2018, 03:27 PM:

You can comment however you like - sharing knowledge is always good.

Posted by David Meechan (Member # 8423) on 11-04-2018, 02:12 PM:

Having worked at a theater that had doghouses in all the auditoriums, I would advise building a booth. Nothing worse than when you need to go to the projector, and have to walk by all the guests staring at you like you broke it on purpose.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-04-2018, 05:29 PM:

I really think that direct-view screens will be the future/end-game for cinema but right now, the sound is a compromise to use them. Also remember, we are on generation-1 of them so it is reasonable to expect for them to get better and cheaper as time goes. There are markets beyond cinema to help drive down the cost of them through volume of production.