Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Laser LIEMAX at Legacy Venues

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-28-2018, 07:44 AM:

My understanding is that Laser LIEMAX projection at traditional IMAX houses fill the 1.43 screen using a 4K projector and a vertically-oriented anamorphic lens. Can someone confirm this?

But many venues will spend most of their time showing Hollywood movies at 2.39 : 1 (2.2 for 2001). Does the anamorphic come off (or automatically move aside) for such shows? It would be kind of stupid to spread out the the pixels to fill the non widescreen shape only to crop about half away.

Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 08-28-2018, 09:22 AM:

Good luck even finding a laser liemax venue.

I wrote to Imax Customer Service about that recently:

quote:
Hello,

Have any of the Imax locations in Colorado upgraded to 4k laser or are they all still projecting low-resolution 2k? I have tried watching 2k and is like looking through a screen door.

Also, will the Colorado Boulevard location ever project IMAX 70MM film again?

Thank you,

Geoff

quote:
Dear Geoff,

Thanks for your note and interest in IMAX .

There are no IMAX laser location yet in Colorado.

However, I think you will find our current systems quite good considering our proprietary picture and audio enhancement, our sub-pixel alignment twin projector systems, our 60% brighter images and amazing sound.

Hopefully, in the near future IMAX laser will come to your area. Your closest place to see IMAX film would be Citywalk in LA or AMC Metreon in San Fran. They are currently showing The Dark Knight and 2001 in film. I doubt 70MM IMAX will return to Colorado.

I really appreciate your note, and I will pass on to our sales team of your interest in IMAX laser.

Chicago is closer to Denver than San Francisco, so there must not be any laser installations there.

Also, what's this bunk about their current 2k systems being "quite good" now? Have they changed since they were first installed? I saw Raiders of the Lost Ark in 2k liemax and it looked terrible.

The note about 70MM IMax in Colorado makes me sad.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 08-28-2018, 09:50 AM:

They can write whatever technobabble nonsense they want about "sub pixel alignment" but 2K is not adequate for any "IMAX" sized screen. I saw Mission Impossible: Fallout in 2k "IMAX" due to showtime convenience. On any bright scene I could CLEARLY see the screen door effect from the third to back row.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-28-2018, 10:14 AM:

I don't know if the anamorphic lenses are movable, but they don't move for shows in scope. You'll end up with noticeable rectangular pixels.

Since those legacy venues usually have humongous screens and your traditional seating position is "right in your face", those pixels are still pretty much visible at 4K.

What's even more awkward is that, at least to me, due to those rectangular, still visible pixels, everything somehow looks like it's skewed together.

While horizontally stretched pixels work fine for me, those Apple Lisa style pixels have the tendency to make the picture look squashed together.

Also, it's such a total waste, looking at a scope feature on those screens. It's not anything more special than sitting in the front of a large scope screen, only with more artifacts like those "squashed pixels" and speckle rainbow all over the place.

The speckle will make it look like you're looking at a fairy tale. There's rainbow colored sprinkles all over the image.

Posted by Chris Haller (Member # 9206) on 08-28-2018, 11:20 AM:

I recently took a trip up to the Cinesphere in Toronto, which recently reopened with an IMAX 4K Laser set up and a new silver screen. The laser setup does use a vertical anamorphic lens to stretch the 1.90:1 image from the 4K projector to 1.44:1. They have also kept their 15/70 capabilities with a GT 3D system.

I was really there to see The Dark Knight in 15/70, but I did stop in early and see 20 minutes of Aircraft Carrier in 4K 2D through the laser setup. I did notice a bit of speckling, but sitting near the middle of the auditorium I didn't notice any visible pixels like I often do at our 2K Xenon IMAX in Rochester. According to the film's website, there is a native 4K version of the film available, and I'm positive that's what the Cinesphere ran. Maybe its different when you're viewing a 2K IMAX presentation through the 4K setup.

Aircraft Carrier was a weird case though - it was constantly switching back and forth between 1.44:1, 1.90:1, and 2.35:1 and whatever shape the legacy footage was in, so I never really got a taste of watching a standard feature through the 4K laser setup. I'd rather go back sometime when they're playing a traditional IMAX feature.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-28-2018, 12:29 PM:

Chicago's Navy Pier went Laser LIEMAX last year. AMC now operates it and I can attend using my A-List membership so no incremental cost. Curious what 2001 would look like.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 08-28-2018, 02:11 PM:

Slightly on topic- The Hackworth Imax dome at the tech museum in San Jose California is now 4k laser. The first laser Imax dome I am aware of.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-28-2018, 03:37 PM:

quote: Chris Haller
I was really there to see The Dark Knight in 15/70, but I did stop in early and see 20 minutes of Aircraft Carrier in 4K 2D through the laser setup. I did notice a bit of speckling, but sitting near the middle of the auditorium I didn't notice any visible pixels like I often do at our 2K Xenon IMAX in Rochester. According to the film's website, there is a native 4K version of the film available, and I'm positive that's what the Cinesphere ran. Maybe its different when you're viewing a 2K IMAX presentation through the 4K setup.

I don't really consider my vision superior to the average, but maybe I'm a bit more triggered by those artifacts than the "casual" moviegoer (I'm not saying I count you as one). I often even spot pixels in 4K presentations on proper 4K machines, especially in subtitles, titling and credit sequences, where edges are often pretty hard.

Also, not every "IMAX legacy venue" is the same and even within the same venue there is a difference in seating position that can make a whole lot of impact.

In my opinion, 4K isn't good enough to fill those humongous screens, it doesn't replace "horizontal" 70MM, maybe we come a bit closer once we reach 8K.

In my opinion, "IMAX with Lasers" is just as crap as "IMAX with Xenon", although the reasons why it's crap are different.

Right now, the only good IMAX is the REAL IMAX, the one with the oversized "legacy" film and it's only good if the FULL FRAME is being used, the rest is just b.s.

Looking at a scope presentation on a skyscraper-sized, unmasked screen feels like you're watching the thing through a burqa...

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 08-28-2018, 03:57 PM:

"...and amazing sound"

Wow! Sold!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-28-2018, 06:43 PM:

Looks like the moniker, "Laser" is the new selling point to draw folks in to see a laser projected movie.

From: Technicolor, 3D, Cinerama, CinemaScope, CinemaScope55, Todd-AO, Super Panavision 70, et.al - just to get people off the couch and watching TV.

(only if they new of how the process really works..)

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-28-2018, 08:32 PM:

Apparently it costs around $2 million to convert a 15/70 IMAX location to the laser digital system. I’m guessing much of the cost is in the dual laser projection system. For all the other dual 2K theaters, which all charge a hefty premium ticket price, the least IMAX could do is install the 12-channel sound system. Every Dolby Cinema screen has Atmos. Every Cinemark XD theater has Auro 11.1 (and some variation of THX). IMAX 2K screens are ordinary 5.1 with just two big speakers in the rear corners of the room. Yeah, it can get loud. But it’s hardly what I would call great.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-29-2018, 01:42 AM:

Well, technically speaking, it's a 6.0 audio format, although many of those "Xenon Digital" systems seem to omit the speaker for the "height" channel.

There is no "LFE" channel in IMAX and also their digital content doesn't use an LFE channel. The bass is extracted out of the 6 channels using bass management.

Sorry for nitpicking. [Wink]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-29-2018, 08:32 AM:

Okay, we'll call it a 5.0 system. I don't think I've ever seen a "voice of God" channel in any Lie-MAX house. Even if one of those 2K houses had it the system would still stink compared to a decent Atmos-equipped rig.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 08-29-2018, 10:17 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't think I've ever seen a "voice of God" channel in any Lie-MAX house

Isn't the IMAX height channel just higher on the screen, not above the audience? I assume that it was because the original IMAX screen was so tall.

Posted by Allan Young (Member # 6332) on 08-29-2018, 10:23 AM:

Speaking of digital IMAX venues, I visited one for the first time to see Avengers: Infinity War which filled the 1.90:1 screen. And about 25% of the screen was obscured by the people sitting in the row in front. Luckily the screening wasn't too busy and I was able to move a few seats along. Even then, the people's heads three rows in front of me were visible in the frame. If I hadn't been able to move seats, I'd have demanded my money back.

Do all these digital houses have awful sightlines? I realise the old 1.43:1 screens weren't fully visible either, but the screen size was such that it didn't seem to matter too much.

Posted by Muhamad Taufiq (Member # 8868) on 08-29-2018, 11:03 AM:

Two IMAX digital (with 1.9:1 screen) I have visited all have very good sightlines. Maybe even more than necessary. So that the back row is about 3/4 way up the screen.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-29-2018, 08:26 PM:

I just saw 2001 in Laser LIEMAX at Navy Pier Chicago.

The verdict: It's not 5-65/70 and a far cry from 15-65/70 but it's not bad. Did not see any pixels. Did see film grain and could spot areas where the O-Neg had been replaced with a dupe due to damage.

I believe there was at least one 1.43 element in the pre-show which means the anamorphic stays in place.

Screen is new (they publicized the work to change it) yet still gray, metallic looking. Jury is still out whether this was a silver screen (not needed for 6P color based 3D) or a gray screen for added contrast. NO hotspot visible.

I presume the intermission is built-in and rolling. Clueless theatre did not program a light cue so the 6 or so in attendance just sat there in the dark for 10-15 minutes or whatever it was.

"In Cinerama" remains in this version. (Could and maybe should have slugged in an IMAX logo there. As much as I like seeing the Cinerama logo, unless you are showing it on a deeply curved screen it is inappropriate.)

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-30-2018, 06:46 AM:

I believe they can roll in/out the anamorphic within a playlist, but the image needs to be blanked. Some people assumed they could switch between 'normal' and 1.43 seamlessly, but as far as I have been told, that is not possible. A laser imax feature with 'some' 1.43 elements needs to be vertically squeezed in all the other sequences as well. Of course they can play other aspect ratios without the anamorphic during preshow.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-30-2018, 11:05 AM:

I would hope they could take it out since even a traditional formerly real IMAX is going to spend most of its time playing 2.39 (and occasional 1.85) Hollywood movies so kinda dumb to waste pixels that could contribute to sharpness (not to mention brightness).

On the original twin 2K LIEMAX you could see polarizers rolling in and out of the picture as needed so no reason they could not do that with the anamorphic. So maybe they did that and if laser can do a better black level when blanked it might not be noticed.

If my calculations are correct the anamorphic ought to be about 1.33 : 1 squeeze (unsqueeze) ratio.

Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 11-01-2018, 11:05 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Every Cinemark XD theater has Auro 11.1

Not every. Some do have full Dolby Atmos systems.

quote: Bobby Henderson
and some variation of THX

Nope. All have real THX certification.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-02-2018, 09:05 PM:

THX certification all but died off in commercial theaters over this past decade. Even Warren Theaters, which used to apply THX to all of its screens (except for IMAX), dropped it. And then the chain was gobbled up by Regal.

Meanwhile Cinemark added a lot of these "XD" screens over the past several years. Very few, if any, of them were originally built with THX in mind. Cinemark sure wasn't advertising it at all. But now over 100+ XD theaters are all THX certified?

I can't help but be suspicious some features of the original commercial THX theater design were bypassed to get the THX logo associated with all of those XD screens. Certain features, such as wall construction and treatment, have to be built into the auditorium when the theater is under construction. It's not something that can be easily/quickly added to an already operating theater screen. Commercial theater chains aren't going to spend extra money beefing up a room's ability to contain sound and provide much better than usual acoustics unless they have to do so. Same goes for installing HVAC systems whose noise is operating at a lower than usual level. The big sound baffle wall behind the screen that is practically a trademark for THX theaters isn't cheap either. Very few non-THX theaters install anything like that. Executives figure if it's something the customer can't see then it's not worth spending extra money on it.

If Cinemark actually did incorporate THX into their XD theaters in legit fashion then kudos to them for doing so. But if it's really some watered down approach then it's yet another thing speeding THX to its final demise.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 11-03-2018, 06:55 PM:

Colorado Boulevard won’t show 15/70 again for a variety of reasons.

The film projectors were taken out after Interstellar, and it was a management decision that they would never show 15/70 again - probably because they destroyed a print of Interstellar due to a projection error and were charged for it.

At least that’s what I was told when I had a talk with the district manager after they decided to only show Dunkirk in digital.

Thankfully Regal continues to operate one 5/70 down the street at the Regal Continental, IMHO a much better presentation than the 5/70 theater at the AMC Westminster 24.

I’d make a snide comment about AMC here, but their 15/70 presentation of Dunkirk at the Metreon in SF was mind blowing, everything 15/70 IMAX should be.