Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What tech to install in a new cinema in 2019?

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Posted by Perry Mulder (Member # 10620) on 10-05-2018, 03:39 PM:

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and would love get your input on the following:

We are opening a new cinema in The Netherlands june 2019. It's a small cinema. We are trying to figure out what projector, server and soundsystem would fit. It's a old cinema that has been closed for 10 years and we are reviving it. All the tech will be replaced. There will be 4 rooms to screen the films.

The room specs:

Room 1: 9.85x14.00=140m2 (140 seats)
Room 2: 11.00x17.70=194.7m2 (160 seats)
Room 3: 10.25x11.90=122m2 (90 seats)
Room 4: 8.80x12.30=108m2 (50 seats)

Apart from the cinema,there will also be 4 lane bowling, a restaurant and Cinema room 2 will have a small stage (10m long x 5m deep) for use of standup comedy, small music concerts and live theater plays.

So what is needed in 2019?:
- 2k or native 4k projectors? Lamp or laser? What brand?
- 3D= dead or alive? Worth investment? All 4 rooms or just 1?
- Dolby Atmos, Auro 3D? DTS?
- What speakersystem? Dolby server? Or link the whole complex via Q-sys platform? That also plays the music in restaurant, bowling and cinema rooms + theater?
-screen, what screen would you suggest and what to avoid?

Anthing else I should take into account?
By the way, the projectors need to be DCP compliant. Films will be blockbuster and arthouse.

Looking forward to your input [thumbsup]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-05-2018, 03:43 PM:

[Smile]

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 10-05-2018, 07:02 PM:

With regard to 3D, if you are going to install 3D I would recommend doing it in at least 2 auditoriums - one large and one small.

While demand for 3D has drastically dropped in recent years, if you are going to have it you want the flexibility of being able to move around to meet demand. Depending on the 3D system you use, you will most likely need to install a new screen. If you have any screens that need to be replaced you should take this into consideration when ordering replacements.

For your auditorium with a stage, you probably want to include systems with expanded possibilities for lighting and sound. You should look at ideas for connecting laptops and presentation technology to your projector from the stage, as this will expand your ability to host meetings and other non-movie events. This might mean running cables from the stage to the projection room, or finding wireless systems to do the same job.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-06-2018, 04:39 PM:

In truth, few if anyone here can answer those questions. You really need to know your market and what THEY will want to pay for. Like all businesses, it comes down to money and that will or should guide you on what makes sense for your particular complex, in your particular location.

Xenon/Laser is more complicated (nobody is going to come out because you use Laser versus Xenon...patrons really are not that technical and even those that are, are statistically insignificant. Again, the money should dictate the technology you use. What does it cost you to put in, what does it cost you to keep, use the system that will yield the most profits for the life of the equipment. The answer today may not be the same answer next year.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-06-2018, 04:58 PM:

Like Steve says. I'd only offer the following, general thoughts.

1. Those rooms don't seem big enough to me for the difference between 2K and 4K to be visible to anyone who isn't sitting in the front couple of rows.

2. Steve has opined in past threads that below the illumination level equivalent to a 4kW xenon arc bulb, RGB laser does not make economic sense. There will be specific issues in your market to consider, but I would suggest doing the math. Over the total number of years that you're planning for your projectors to be in service, would the additional cost of laser cover the cost of bulbs and electricity over the same time period if you went for xenon?

3. You might like to think about equipping Room 2 above and beyond plain vanilla digital cinema, if you feel that your market might justify it, e.g. by installing HDMI hookup facilities at the stage (as Justin has suggested), alternative content facilities, 3-D, and maybe 35mm.

4. One Q-Sys design for the whole place may well make economic sense, though I'd strongly suggest a double redundant core and Q-Lan. If you don't go for redundancy, then if your core or a Q-Lan switch goes out, the whole complex is buggered. With individual audio processors in each screen, one of them failing would only take out that one screen.

Q-Sys would also make it a bit easier to upgrade one of the houses to Atmos at a later date, though the main expense of that would be the power amps, speakers, and wiring runs. You may wish to consider putting the wiring runs from ceiling to booth in now, especially if you're gutting the rooms totally, and therefore doing so would add relatively little to the cost at this stage in the game.

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 10-08-2018, 02:14 AM:

Hello Perry, you are welcome to visit our Barco HQ in Kortrijk, Belgium (<1hr drive for you) to discuss this topic in person and see some demos of lamp and laser projectors.

Barco has projector, media server and audio server solutions for cinema.

Let me know if this interests you

Posted by Perry Mulder (Member # 10620) on 10-08-2018, 07:32 AM:

Thanks guys for the input so far! I have been reading into a lot of the threads here and it has been so informative.
So a little update on my findings.

3D:

in 2018 there where/are 27 titels, in 2019 there are 14 titles known to support 3D and in 2020 12 titles. I'm sure other titles will add to the list so for the upcoming 2 years 3D still has it's place in the cinema. The titles that are on that list are all titles that would do well for our visitors. Justin gave the adviced doing it in at least 2 auditoriums - one large and one small. So For now that will translate into Room 1 (150 seats) and room 4 (50 seats). All 4 rooms need a new screen so I will have to see what screen would be the best fit for 3D.

Speakersystem:

I have been reading many good thing about QSC speakers and the price of these speakers and woofers are fair for what they offer. So will probably go that route. I will have to see wich type of speaker, that would differ per roomsize I asume. Any suggestions there?

Auro 3D and Dolby Atmos:

Since Galaxystudios is very closeby I called them to see what Auro 3D could mean for us. I read that with a Auro 3D installation it can also support Dolby Atmos and DTS-X? This might not be for every room, but maybe room 1 to compliment 3D movies as well.

Server and cinema processor:

We made a appointment with CinemaNext in the Netherlands, we will go there tomorrow. I will ask to see what the possibilities are with a Q-sys platform. I read good thing about the Datasat25, but not sure that will work with Q-sys, it does work with Auro 3D since it is 16 channel. For Q-sys it would probably make more sence to go with the USL JSD-100?

Projector:

If Auro 3D would be something we could invest in I guess it would make sence to go with Barco:-) So Tom Bert, I will be in contact with you. I talked to Mark from Galaxystudios and he will probably set something up in the near future.

Laser projector and 2k vs 4k:

Laser is probably not gonna be worth investing in as prices still are pretty steep. And as Leo Enticknap mentioned, the rooms are probably not big enough for 4k to really make a difference all that much apart from the people in the first 2 rows. So for now I have my eyes on:

Barco DP2K-6E, Barco DP2K-8, Barco DP2K-10s or Barco DP2K-12C.

I did read here on the forum about a lack of contrast with the DP2K-8 and 10s, but that could probably be improved with the right screen. So Tom, looking forward to that demo!

Screen:

I have not had much time to look into this yet, but maybe the following?:

For 3D Harkness Screen Spectral 240 3D Perf.
For 2D Harkness Screen Matt Mini Perf.

So what do you guys/Ladies think? Am I on the right track?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-08-2018, 08:35 AM:

Of the projectors you mention, my personal preference would be for the C series, because (with the exception of the B series, IMHO), they are the easiest to maintain. That having been said, because you are so close to Barco's global HQ, you won't have any problem whatsoever finding a Barco certified tech when you need one.

If you went for Q-Sys, you wouldn't need any other audio processors at all, except for 35mm analog and Atmos decoding if you wanted either of those. The 16 channels of AES audio output (of which you would only need 10, assuming 7.1 plus HI and VI) from each of the IMBs or IMSes would just go straight into the Q-Sys core, and all signal processing and tuning would happen in the Q-Sys design. A single (but with a redundant backup) Core 510 (the cinema version) would be able to handle all the channels needed for a 4-plex, assuming no Atmos. If you did put Atmos in one or more screens, you'd likely need a bigger core.

I like the AP20/AP25, too, and if you were to decide to equip one screen with 35mm, that would be something to look at seriously, because you can add the optional H.338 film preamp card (if they still make it). The other film option would be a used CP650 or below. But if you were to go for Q-Sys and are not equipping any of the screens for film, you wouldn't need it.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-08-2018, 09:10 AM:

Nah, no Q-Sys in this place, it couldn't see it being economically feasible in rooms this small. A separate JSD-100 in each room for reliability and best sound quality... UNlike ther CP-750 the JSD-100 is practically bulletproof, I have yet to ever have one fail! As an upgrade the Trinnov Ovation processors could be used. QSC screen speakers such as the SC-2150 could be utilized in these small rooms to advantage. I placed quite a few 2150's in small rooms during digital conversions and they sound really nice.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-08-2018, 09:38 AM:

For four screens of 7.1? The CORE 110 can handle that (64 streams/128 channels in/out...you'd only be up to 28 channels in/out). DCIO-H at each screen and you have everything you need...a far, far better solution than the JSD100...much more capable and flexible. I'd use a redundant core only multiplex situation (and dual networks). With QSYS (or the DPM line) you get intrinsic correction on QSC speakers so you'd be practically tuned, right out of the box.

Now, if you are looking for plug-n-play solutions (less flexibility but pretty much 95% of what most cinemas need) then there are several solutions like the QSC DPM, DCP line as well as more traditional cinema processors with conventional wiring like the JSD60, JSD100, CP750, AP25, Ovation. There are monitor and crossover choices too for traditional systems though they, like the cinema processors, seem to be funneling towards QSC (CM-8E, DCM lines) now that they have USL under their umbrella.

To address Leo's film criteria, I'd add any suitable film processor to the QSYS system and be done with it. That is, take a CP65/DA20, CP500, JSD80, CP650...etc. and just call it up as a source. The use cycle of your film processor will be substantially different than the rest of the system; no need to overly convolve them.

QSC has also brought out the SC223 speaker that is essentially a purpose built SC323 but only for bi-amp systems and with an optimized midrange. The SC-2150 has too many compromises in the name of depth so unless you have no depth behind the screen, a full-size speaker is going to work better.

If Atmos is added, then each Atmos MUST use a separate core. Atmos sets its own clock based on the CP850 (or IMS3000) so you can't share it between screens.

Auro cannot handle DTS-X or Atmos. Though Atmos and DTS-X CAN be similar, they are not similar to Auro, which puts its stock in trade in "height" channels, something I've yet to find to be of any real value. Atmos and Auro are the only "holistic" solutions with nobody really steering the ship for DTS-X. From what I've heard, IF I were to invest in an immersive system, it would be Atmos. It is an end-to-end solution that continues to have home implications to ensure its long-term viability better than the others. However, it is not a cheap date. I'd price it out and then ask yourself, will installing it sell enough extra tickets (or be the means of viability) to justify the added expense.

All of the S2K projector have miserable contrast (not brand specific). You cannot fix contrast with screen gain. You can have not not look as bad but the contrast remains miserable...but by increasing screen gain, you also make the image illumination less uniform. Barco, on their Laser-Phosphor projectors have effectively increased contrast some over their xenon equivalents but not Earth shattering. From the Barco line, I like to start with the DP2K-12C. It is a VERY versatile projector with a lamp range from 850-watts up to 2200-watts.

Posted by Perry Mulder (Member # 10620) on 10-08-2018, 01:08 PM:

Thanks for the fast replay guys!

The more I read this, the more I think Q-sys would be the way to go for us. Mark, I'll note your comment too, we will indeed need to do some calculations after tomorrows meeting with CinemaNext.

So if I am correct, most of you suggest a Q-sys server with a redundant backup. Four screens with 7.1 indeed. So that would mean:

- 1x CORE 110f (primary)
- 1X CORE 110f (Back up core)
- 4x DCIO/DCIO-H (No need for a backup IO frame?)
- 2x DP2K-12C (room 1 and 2)
- 1x DP2K-10s (room 3)
- 1x DP2K-8s (room 4)
- 1x QSC CMS-5000 server? not sure how that integrates:-)

The soundsystem is still a little unclear to me. Maybe the 2 smaller rooms (3&4) could go with a "basic" 7.1 installation with suitable QSC speakers and woofer. There is enough room behnt the screens. about 50cm at least. Room 2 needs special attention due to the stage speakers, can't go with a standard cinema installation, so the q-sys platform would be very useful here as well. Room 1 is the one that needs to be our jewel, this will be the one to screen premiers.
So with that room it might be interesting to see what we can do with dolby atmos or Auro 3D in 13.1.
The way this work is still a little unclear to me, but since Galaxystudios is so close to from where we are based I guess it makes sence to at least meet with them to see what is possible with Auro 3D.

For now there are no plans to do anything with 35mm or 70mm filmprojectors, but I understand that if I would want that for a special event, it could be done so with a CP650 added to the mix, am I correct Leo? Or does q-sys rule out those possibilities?

Did I overlook anything? Possibly the amplifiers, but I've seen QSC has those as well, any recommandations there? And what about monitors?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-08-2018, 02:58 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The SC-2150 has too many compromises in the name of depth so unless you have no depth behind the screen, a full-size speaker is going to work better.

And that's exactly why I brought it up. I am assuming on a project like this that every square inch of space will be devoted to seating. Plus, the 2150 is not so much of a compromise as one might think it is.

If he relies on one Q-Sys for the entire complex he better have a back up one in place, at which point I think his budget is kind of blown up a bit.

Mark

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 10-08-2018, 03:51 PM:

Q-Sys essentially "virtualizes" your sound into a "digital sound network", where your inputs and outputs are digitalized using an interface like the DCIO/DCIO-H, which is specifically made to match the I/O requirements of your average Digital Cinema booth.

The Q-Sys core is where the audio-routing/switching and processing (effects, equalization, etc.) is done. Since those Q-Sys cores are pretty powerful devices, you can easily process multiple screens and rooms, including hallways, foyer and other spaces with one Q-Sys core. That's also why you should consider a backup, because when your single Q-Sys core may drop out, your entire operation might become silent or worse.

What's not yet included into the overview is that Q-Sys doesn't live in thin air and needs a stable Gigabit Ethernet network as a backbone. So, you should also invest in the necessary Ethernet switching and wiring with sufficient ports for all your networking needs. Please notice that both projector and server/IMS combo also needs switching ports.

I would recommend a redundant ethernet switching setup, where you segment your network into VLANs, to segment it for specific functionalities.

quote:
- 4x DCIO/DCIO-H (No need for a backup IO frame?)

You'll be installing one of each for every screen. It's pretty hard to impossible to create a scenario in which you could make a DCIO/DCIO-H redundant, even if you install two per room. You could, if you want to factor in the expenses, invest in a cold-spare unit you could use as a drop-in replacement if one of them fails though.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-09-2018, 06:25 AM:

Please note, I'm NOT saying QSYS is the right/best solution for you...it CAN be and provides the most flexibility now and into the future. As for backups. The Core can (and should) be backed up with a redundant core (do you really want to go down on multiple screens) and the QLAN can be backed up (same reasons). QSYS provides for redundant cores and dual QLANs.

You can do something called "dynamic pairing" to allow for back up I/O and amps. That is, since all I/O (including amps) are configured items, without dynamic pairing, dropping another I/O device in doesn't replace what failed, it is seen as another device to be configured. With dynamic pairing, you can set it up such that if a like or more capable device is plugged in on the same port (Ethernet physical port), then the system will configure that new device to function as the previous device. Thus, you could have, for example a spare DCIO-H and a spare DPA8.8Q amp (or whatever amps you are using) on site and have a backup for any of those and upon failure, be swapped out as fast as you can plug them in.

The SC-2150 IS a compromise over a full-sized speaker...either you are deaf and blind or you are making things up. Blind in its specs and deaf in its sound. It isn't that it is bad but it is nowhere near what an SC-423 is in sound quality. In fact, I'd take most 2-way speakers over it.

BTW...servers are needed for each screen.

I think you'd be better served to go visit some functioning cinemas to see what they have done, perhaps go to a trade show or two to see what is out there than try to design a system here via committee.

Sound is a tricky one because there are parts of it governed by physics (rarely is smaller better), voodoo (why does one speaker sound better than another despite similar specs?), budget (we all have limits), space (how much room do you have behind the screen), what formats do you want/need to support and then outright personal preference (I like speaker A and you like speaker B...neither are right or wrong). I'll say that one of the portions above that isn't up for debate...the physics...sound will always behave its laws so that has to be in a successful design.

Same with projectors...to make decisions sight-unseen is to be uniformed.

With servers...look at the workflow your operation will have to go through with each. What are their reliability? From a showing the movie standpoint...they all work and will put up the same picture/sound but some have had 100% failure rates doing it, some just don't fit with the workflow of some cinemas as well as others and that will vary from company to company.

You really need to do some personal research beyond here to find what is right FOR YOU and YOUR BUSINESS.

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 10-09-2018, 10:05 AM:

Note that with the introduction of the new SMPTE standard ( SMPTE announcement), Auro3D and Auro11.1 have migrated to (the SMPTE-compliant) AuroMax: https://www.barco.com/en/product/apx-audio-processor

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 10-09-2018, 11:55 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I think you'd be better served to go visit some functioning cinemas to see what they have done, perhaps go to a trade show or two to see what is out there than try to design a system here via committee.

I would somehow love to see how that would end (if ever). What if the people here would actually design an entire cinema by committee?

Maybe it would also immediately explain why a lot of stuff out there is so frickin' convoluted. [Wink]

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-09-2018, 04:40 PM:

In this situative context, it doesn't make sense to use anything than the Barco Alchemy servers/IMS in every projector. Forget the 2K-8S, it is just a marketing-reduced 10S, if you want to buy cheaper than the 12C for the smaller screens, get two 10S (or two more 12C).

The QSYS vs. dedicated cinema processor thing - you would probably need to get a quote on both. In order to decide (beyond the cost), you probably need to think about possible use scenarios beyond classic cinema. That defines where you need flexibility.

As the SMPTE standard for object based audio is finished now, all of the different systems will converge on the signal level. If one would want to buy a system NOW, ATMOS would be the only usable choice (and an expensive one), but that will change quickly now. If you can wait a few months, more options will appear and be supported by the studios on a broader scale.

- Carsten

Posted by Perry Mulder (Member # 10620) on 10-10-2018, 08:09 AM:

Thanks for the replies again, it's of great help to get some perspective arround this all. Yesterday we had a meeting with CinemaNext in Cuijk (Netherlands). These are the results:

3D in 2019:

We decided on 3D for 2 rooms. Using the Xpand system. This has a few reasons:

We can swap the 3D system to different rooms within 30 minutes. Incase room 1 and 4 have not enough seats for a certain title we want to have the possibility to switch one of the bigger rooms more seats. Also the technology will show better 3D results then a passive system. Only con is that we will have more handling time to clean the glasses and they are more expensive. But the biggest reason to me is that now we don't need to invest in a more expensive screen. All 4 screens can now be optimised for 2D, incase 3D becomes less interesting in the upcoming years, we don't have to incest in new 2D screens. Also most titles we will program are 2D and this way I can make sure every room will have the same image quality in 2D.

Projectors:

The projector that was adviced was a Christie. They said the Christie CP2215 would be a better fit for our needs. They adviced to place the same projector in all 4 rooms. They did say it was also possible to go with the Barco. The 10s for room 4 and 12C for the other three. 8s was like some of you already suggested not adviced due to a lack of contract. I'm not sure if the CP2215 will be more expensive then the 12C.

Sound:

Both Dolby Atmos and Auro are off the table. There are not enough filmtitles that use Auro, Auro to them was only interesting if I decided to program Bollywood movies every week. As they still do support it. I was under the impression that it would scale a 5.1 audio mix to Auro 11.1, but that is only with BluRay discs, not possible with DCP.
And dolby Atmos at the moment is too expensive for us. What we can do is make sure the cables are placed already, incase we might want to go with Atmos once it becomes more affordable. For now, all the rooms will be 7.1.

So they will make a calculation for a Q-sys platform. They said that Q-sys was a great option for us and that the speakers were great. I told them about the CORE110F including a backup and 4 DCIO-H. The amps and speakers will also be from QSC. For the theaterroom (room 2) they suggested to place 2 or 3 extra speakers in the front mounted to the ceiling, when the stage would be used. Their suggestion was to look at QSC 5152 or QSC 5122. The sound in the rest of the building, including bowling, winebar, grandcafé, restaurant, toilets, hallways will all be connected to the QSC platform with speakers from QSC.

Dolby Server

This means QSC will only handle the sound. For the DCP server they suggested to go with a dolby server DCP2K4 Showvault 4TB. with use of a Doremi (IMD). Every room wil also be equiped with a BluRay player.

4K and Laser was still way too expensive for us, they also said laser was not going to be much cheaper anytime soon.

For now I will have to await their new calculation. I will still plan a meeting with Barco via Galaxystudios. Since they are so closeby it can never hurt to visit them and see what they have to offer.

I'm curious what you guys think of the above.

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 10-10-2018, 10:23 AM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
As the SMPTE standard for object based audio is finished now, all of the different systems will converge on the signal level. If one would want to buy a system NOW, ATMOS would be the only usable choice (and an expensive one), but that will change quickly now. If you can wait a few months, more options will appear and be supported by the studios on a broader scale.

quote: Perry Mulder
There are not enough filmtitles that use Auro, Auro to them was only interesting if I decided to program Bollywood movies every week. As they still do support it. I was under the impression that it would scale a 5.1 audio mix to Auro 11.1, but that is only with BluRay discs, not possible with DCP.

Well actually, the Barco alternative (AuroMax) is already available and SMPTE-compliant today [Wink]

That solves your "Bollywood problem" since major studios releases will now follow the new standard. PS: AuroMax is more cost effective than competition [Cool]

Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 10-10-2018, 01:05 PM:

Hi Perry,

If Atmos and Auro are off the table you might consider the Trinnov Ovation cinema processor running in 7.1 for your rooms. Qsys is a nice and flexible system for sure, and the amps and speakers will be great. But personally I am not convinced of any system that runs a whole building like that, nothing against QSC though, I have used their products for years as an installer.

The Ovation offers calibration software within the box that does a really good job, looking at time, phase, impulse response, and both direct and room response. We find many customers are loving the result. The time and phase optimization tends to make 7.1 feel more immersive.

It will also take in your bluray players via optical, BNC or RCA digital. With the optional DTS and/or Dolby Digital licenses it will decode, or you can run an analog cable into the DB25. The DTS also allows an upmixer for 2.0 sources.

Besides 5.1 and 7.1 DCP, the upmixer allows for 2.0 DCP upmixing for LtRt sources, and a dual mono source will come out of the center channel as it should.

It can even feed Qsys, we have a few customers taking advantage of our optimizer while still using the flexibility of Qsys, although you should check out the price implications of that.

Obviously since I work for Trinnov, some others should weigh in with opinions if they wish. We've been installing a lot in the UK and there are over 1000 units in France. CinemaNext is certainly aware of us.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-10-2018, 02:02 PM:

Regardless of the make, having the same model of projector in all four houses makes a lot of sense. If you wish to keep a part with a known high failure rate in stock as an insurance policy against a lost show (an example would be an NEC NC900C ballast), then one part covers you for four screens. And if you lose one of the larger auditoria, you have the option of taking a part from the projector in a smaller one at least to protect your largest revenue source.

Posted by Oliver Pasch (Member # 1335) on 10-11-2018, 01:33 AM:

Hi Perry,

It will not come as surprise to anyone here that I fundamentally disagree on the recommendation and choice of projectors.

This is the year 2018. Your audience is used to high resolution and high contrast pictures on a daily basis, whether that's on any kind of mobile devices or at home in the living room on a flat screen. How are they supposed to accept the fact that the images in your new cinema will look significantly worse than anything they perceive to get almost for free on a daily basis, how is such inferior quality supposed to make them believe that the way a movie is meant to be experienced in a cinema is worth taking the time, effort and money to come to your place?

For a new cinema opening in 2019, you should not chose anything less but 4K resolution and high contrast (I am not saying HDR, but high contrast for projection of standard DCPs).

Even if - point taken - disappointingly there is still only a limited number of native 4K DCPs today, what your audience will see is still a better image without pixels. And please forget about the myth of "4K only makes sense on large screens" - all that matters is the viewing angle, which has not been discussed here at all.

Every standard 2K DCP will look significantly better with high contrast 4K projection.

You know how to contact me on, happy to have a chat.

Best regards

Oliver

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 10-11-2018, 03:18 AM:

quote: Oliver Pasch
all that matters is the viewing angle

Referring to hotspotting on high-gain screens? How is it related to resolution?

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-11-2018, 04:54 AM:

I guess Oliver means that if you have a 5 metres wide screen and you watch it from 3 metres distance, 4K still makes sense as it would be exactly as if you were watching a 20m screen from 12 metres viewing distance. Hence, it’s not the absolute size of the screen that matters.
I can agree with that.

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 10-11-2018, 06:30 AM:

quote: Marco Giustini
I guess Oliver means that if you have a 5 metres wide screen and you watch it from 3 metres distance, 4K still makes sense as it would be exactly as if you were watching a 20m screen from 12 metres viewing distance. Hence, it’s not the absolute size of the screen that matters.
I can agree with that.

I can agree with the statement that 4K adds to the overall image quality perception. And that effect/impact becomes bigger as the image takes up a bigger part of your field of view.

What is discussable, is whether the added value weighs up to the added cost. Today, 4K still has a premium price over 2K (when it comes to cinema projectors; e.g. that's almost gone for LCD TVs)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-11-2018, 07:32 AM:

4K also almost always comes with a contrast "hit" for cinema projection. I'm guessing that Oliver is pushing Sony (higher contrast, always 4K).

As I suspected, they guy that probably sells mostly Christie is selling Christie, the guy that sells Trinnov, suggests Trinnov, the guy that works for Barco suggests various forms of Auro (Barco)...etc and if someone was here from QSC, I'm sure that stuff would also be the right stuff to use.

This is why I don't generally like design by committee, especially when people can have ulterior motives (there is nothing wrong with a manufacturer pushing their products; in fact, I expect it).

This is why I suggest going to see these systems in use, talking to people that live with them, going to a couple of shows to see just what is out there.

What people buy at home has very little to do with what people expect in cinema. How many marquees advertise things like "4K?" I don't know about the rest of the work but around here...zero. There is NO marquee value in 4K or 7.1. At best, you're tell the customer that you are no better than the home...never mind the color reproduction and that each image is a unique frame and the bit depth and...There is nothing there to work with, as far as consumer education. In their minds, they already have that. How many customers have come out of a 2K performance thinking that resolution was where the weakness was? Contrast...people and manufacturers have been lying about it for decades. Are we measuring lens capped versus full white, checkerboards? Is the exit sign on and the aisle lighting? Put up an alternating checkerboard...your real contrast is something in the 100s, not thousands, let alone 10s of thousands. Now, direct-view screens...they have the potential for VERY high contrast but projection is going to have issues so again, educating the customer is a non-starter.

I come back to...go see (and hear) some of these systems, in use. Talk to the people that use them and see what it takes to keep them going, what features they like, what "features" they don't like. Go to a show or two and see what else is out there.

Posted by Perry Mulder (Member # 10620) on 10-11-2018, 08:04 AM:

Tnx for the replies again. Like steve suggested we will go see what else is out there. We are planning to visit Barco in Kortrijk (belgium) and Galaxystudio's (auro). We will also visit some other cinema's to see what they work with. For now, if budget allows it, we will stick to the Q-sys platform for audio, since the other investors showed their prefference for such a system. As for the projector I understand every brand and tech has it's pro's and cons. So I hope to get a better understanding by visiting other cinema's and demo rooms.

Posted by Perry Mulder (Member # 10620) on 10-13-2018, 01:29 AM:

Little update: Also spoke with Oliver P. (SONY) over the phone. He is setting up a meeting for me so I can have a look atva cinema that use their projectors, within our budget. I'm excited to see what's out there.Thanks so much for all the help and suggestions again. Keep em coming.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-13-2018, 07:02 AM:

That is a good first move. Don't forget to see what upkeep is like (both labor and cost of parts).