This is topic Software DCP players for theater screenings - looking for advice and experiences in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Karim Benmachiche (Member # 10647) on 10-28-2018, 10:46 AM:
 
Hi!

I work for a small independent cinema in Lausanne, Switzerland. It is run completely on a voluntary basis, no salaries, and completely non-profit. We do not screen big budget or Hollywood movies, but only small independent ones, documentaries, shorts or art pieces, we also have 16mm performances, etc.

We have been screening with 35mm until a couple of years ago, we waited to see how DCP would develop and rather screened from either dvd/bluray discs or "simple" non-dcp files until recently. However, even our small distributors are starting to require that we can handle DCP files because they don't want to do conversion for us anymore.

We recently received some public funding to re-equip ourselves, but the amount or infrastructure works and equipment to purchase is quite important (for us at least...), and we didn't receive that much either.

So, basically, we are very limited budget-wise, and we cannot afford professional DCI equipment.

Our new projector will most likely be a 3LCD laser projector, under 9000$. (Panasonic MZ770, HDCP compliant)

Another venue in the country which was in a similar situation last year chose to go with EasyDCP and a MacPro. While looking at EasyDCP we also came across NeoDCP. We will not got with a Mac, but rather with a Windows PC, which is cheaper for much better perfoamnces (and we have good techs to maintain it).

Anyway, my question: are there people here with experience screening for small venues or festivals using either software? Is there one that is the "standard" in 2018?

From what I could see, NeoDCP is much more interesting mainly due to the lifetime license (EasyDCP is only valid 6 months, then you have to purchase a service fee). Since both seem to be updated quite frequently, it seems like an easy choice. But such a choice cannot be made without real-life proofing, which is why I am looking for advice and experiences here.

So. Any thoughts? Suggestions? [Smile]

Thanks in advance for your help and please pardon my english on a couple of sentences...
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-28-2018, 11:02 AM:
 
This question has been asked and answered before (so much so that I'm wondering if an FAQ section on F-T might be an idea to develop, especially if regular posters could step up to write and develop some of the articles), and this is basically, as far as I can remember, a distillation of the answers.

The big problem with a software DCP player is that it lacks a hardware media block. The media block is the component in a dedicated, DCI-compliant playback system, that decrypts encrypted DCP movie data and sends it the "last mile" into the projector's imaging hardware, in a way that makes it near impossible to extract and pirate copy the content.

There are software DCP players that have, in effect, a virtual media block, with a serial number that KDMs (decryption keys) could be issued for. The problem is that the major studios regard these as unacceptably insecure, and most will refuse to issue KDMs for them. With a software DCP player running on a PC, therefore, you will likely be limited to playing unencrypted DCPs, which will limit you to arthouse, non-profit archival and re-release titles. You won't be able to play any Hollywood studio titles (including studio archive titles).

A secondary consideration is that a DCI-compliant server, media block and projector setup is guaranteed to be able to process and play the image data (either 2K or 4K, depending on the system) without stutters, glitches and other artifacts. DCI-compliant playback does not use image scaling at all (pixels in the JPEG image are reproduced directly as pixels on the imaging device), so no major graphics processing power is needed. Using a PC-based approach, you are basically going the same route as games geeks. The work is done by the PC's processor, RAM, GPU, and hard drive storage, and you'll need these components to be heavy duty enough to cope with (potentially) 4K at 250mbps. I've just finished building such a computer to QC unencrypted DCPs I've created, and the hardware alone cost me just shy of $2K. Then there's the software side of things - you don't want Windows popups appearing on the screen or it going into screensaver mode during your movie show, etc. etc. (my recently built DCP render/QC machine is Ubuntu-based, which makes it much easier to keep this sort of stuff under control).

If you're serious about this, I would suggest that a Series 8 Core i7 processor (or AMD equivalent) capable of 4.5 to 5GHz (with a liquid cooler - this thing will be running under a heavy load for two hours or more during a show), 64GB of 2400 DDR4 RAM, a GTX 1080 GPU with 8GB RAM, and a hardware RAID5 controller with at least three 2GB drives should be considered a bare minimum hardware spec for the PC.

For all these reasons, therefore, a used Series 1 system (just as a for example, Barco DP1500, plus Dolby DSS200/cat862) would probably come in at a similar price to that of the e-cinema setup you're contemplating, but would give you full access to commercially distributed DCPs by the major studios.

The only minor glitch would be that most Series 1 projectors that I know of have DVI input boards that are not HDCP-compliant, but boxes that can take care of that are widely available for $100 or less. If you've been running 35mm, then handling xenon bulbs won't be a problem for you, which would be the only other issue I'd flag up for someone contemplating owning and using "proper" d-cinema equipment for the first time.
 
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-28-2018, 03:33 PM:
 
NeoDCP is the only useful player to be used in front of an audience. The development is explicitly targeted at this application. I know a few cinemas using it for stationary and open air applications. But - keep in mind, at 10.000€, you are not that far away from a second hand DCI system. If you spend all that money now for a non-DCI system, that future path towards DCI may be blocked for a long time.

There are other players able to play DCPs 'somehow', but I wouldn't recommend them for presentations.

One could employ a second hand DSS200, however, that has some limitations as long as you are not able to finance a cinelink (DCI) capable projector sooner or later.

NeoDCP will play encrypted DCPs into a non-DCI projector (if KDMs are issued at all for this setup). The DSS200 will only play unencrypted content, unless a DCI projector is used. You will get KDMs a lot easier for a DSS200, but they will be useless without a DCI projector offering encrypted HD-SDI.

Being in Switzerland, you may want to have a look at project A-Cinema as well.
A-Cinema uses the Fraunhofer EasyDCP player engine, but uses a custom GUI supporting typical cinema needs.

You still need to shell out a few thousand € for software and hardware.

- Carsten
 
Posted by Karim Benmachiche (Member # 10647) on 10-28-2018, 06:19 PM:
 
Thank you both very much for your replies!

I feel my first post was missing some information.

First of all, it was while researching NeoDCP that I found those forums and thus wanted to ask more, it was not because I didn't do research previously [Smile] .

As I said, we are 100% independently run, no salaries, etc. This means everyone does everything, sometimes people doing the screenings are not experienced techs, so we need something usable by anyone.

Our philosophy is indeed close to the one from A-Cinema, which I just looked up:
quote:
Das „A-Cinema“ wird sich in der technischen Lösung vom DCI unterscheiden. Unsere Ziele sind:

-> Unabhängigkeit
-> Zukunftsfähigkeit / Erweiterbarkeit
-> Low-Budget-Finanzierbarkeit

Wir möchten weiterhin selbst entscheiden, welche Filme in unserem Programm laufen und sind für einen offenen, unein­ge­schränkten Zugang zu Film­pro­jektio­nen.

Ein geschlossenes System ist aus unserer Sicht auch technisch nicht sinnvoll. Keine heute ver­ordnete Norm und kein heute als hoch­auflösend definiertes Format muß in den nächsten Jahren noch Gültig­keit besitzen.

Dem Diskurs um Kino­server und Projek­toren in Preis­regionen, die Lotto­gewinnern vor­behalten sind, begegnen wir mit klarer Über­legung: Ein Kino­server ist - ganz simpel - ein Rechner.
(however, being in the french-speaking part of Switzerland, it unfortunately seems complicated for us to get involved)

It was even a rather long discussion to decide whether we'd even accept the idea of DCPs. Encrypting movies to protect from piracy is one thing, allowing movies to only play on certain types of devices is another one. But in any case, we need to be able to play DCP files, whether they are unencrypted, or if they are encrypted and the distributor accepts our setup.

Most of our screenings will be from either "classic" file formats, (mp4, mov, etc), and non-encrypted compliant DCPs would probably be 20% of our screenings. Encrypted ones, we are not even sure we will have any, at least for now.

This is why we are looking at such a solution. We thought a "new" setup with a nice 8000lm projector, would be more interesting and less expensive than an 2nd hand system. We already chose an i7-8700 machine with a GTX 1080, and 1TB SSD drive for screening (+ other storage etc.). This is, indeed short of $2K. We have two IT professionnals in our cinema, including me, and are fairly confident we can setup a Windows config to play flawlessly.

It might still be completely erroneous reasoning on my part. Maybe second-hand DCI systems are better than what we intend to use. We didn't do much research on pricing of second hand DCI systems, at least I never expected it would cost around the $15k mark. While NeoDCP seems to be currently our best short-term choice (thanks Carsten for the confirmation), I would be seriously interested in knowing what type of 2nd hand DCI system we should be looking for.
 
Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 10-28-2018, 07:06 PM:
 
If you ask me, my favourite would be EasyDCP. But, than again, rethink.....i did spend much time searching and calculating for some alternative solutions.....but at end every decided to go with dci equipment because they did got contect with kdm......studios which are responsible for that archive content or even new will not bother around to issue KDM for some playback equipmen non dvi. One time i had simillar issue on film festival, they did not want to issue KDM for some b art movie, even film director asked them to do so, as he was on venue to wanting to screen movie, but they rented only non dci equipment because they tought all programm on that location will be BluRay/HD etc....
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-29-2018, 08:25 AM:
 
It actually can not be done through software alone. Not even with the multiples of latest 12 core or more, hyper-threading Xeon processors there is simply not enough computing horse power there. Decryption generally requires multiple Field Programmable Gate Arrays (FPGA) in order to do the required work. And you know what runs 60 plus degrees C inside those media blocks are those FPGA chips. They can be controlled and run from an I7 or Xeon processor though.

Even the latest gestation of GDC TMS needs lots of computing horse power and it runs best under a server sporting dual Xeon 56xx 12 core processors where older versions of TMS ran fine on older Dell quad core servers. If you monitor CPU activity you'll see activity in at least 15 of those cores when doing multiple transfers to and between cinemas!! Most techs are not aware that Windoez 7 Pro 64 bit supports up to 32 cores... Also, be sure that ALL of your CPU cores are turned on in windows admin. Often the initial install will only turn on either two or four cores.

Mark
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-29-2018, 08:49 AM:
 
quote: Karim Benmachiche
We already chose an i7-8700 machine with a GTX 1080, and 1TB SSD drive for screening (+ other storage etc.).
I really wouldn't feel confident about using a single drive to play out to a large audience (especially a SSD, which are not designed for sustained reading or writing over a long time period - that's when they tend to overheat and fail). If the drive fails, that's the end of your show. This is why professional DCP servers store the movie content on a RAID5 (older ones tend to use hardware RAID controllers, more recent ones a software RAID) consisting of at least three drives, and sometimes more.

Given the rapidly decreasing cost of large capacity 3.5" drives (though drives badged as "archival," that use shingled magnetic recording, are no good for use in media servers and should be avoided), it might make sense for you to use, say, two 6TB drives as a RAID1, especially as this would reduce the memory and processing power required for a software RAID (e.g. Windows Storage Spaces and ReFS on Windows 10) to a negligible drain on the machine's computing power.
 
Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 10-29-2018, 11:23 AM:
 
Like Leo, I had often had a need to QC DCP's, mostly "festival
stuff", which was un-encrypted and often 'home made, as well
as checking the occasional material I generate via DCP-0-Matic.

I'm also often called into service to "fix" or figure out what's
wrong with DCP's that won't play just before a festival and
which both the film-maker and theater staff are clueless about.
(I've had to do this twice in just the past week) AND- I wanted
to be able to do this without tying up a server at work or going
down to a theater after hours to check things on screen in the
middle of the night. (I have keys and/or after hours access to
several venues here in San Francisco) and I wanted to be able
to do this 'at home' sipping tea comfortably in my pajamas,
rather than late at night in some cramped projection booth
where beverages and such attire are generally frowned upon.

I wasn't really happy with the few software based DCP players I
tried, although a lot of that had to do with the fact that the
computers I was using simply lacked the processing power to do
it properly.

At some point I realized that I could either buy a computer that
was up to the task, or simply get myself a used, cinema server,
and it would wind up costing me about the same, more or less.

I knew a theater theater that had an old, unused server sitting
around. They wanted $2500USD for it, but I managed to talk
them down to $2kUSD. I already had an audio processor that I
got for practically nothing when a theater was upgrading their sound
system, and I picked up an AJA Dual Link Serial Digital - to - HDMI
converter box so that I could connect the server to a large monitor.

I wasn't really too concerned about colorspace, etc because all
I needed this system for was to verify that content was ingestable
and playable on a 'real world' server, and that there was at least an
'acceptable' level of video & audio content present.

I'm not sure what my point is here, other than to say that if its'
at all possible, I think that in the long run you are better off trying to
find a good, used, 'real' digital cinema server, than to go the software
based player route. I think in the end it might wind up costing about
the same, and you also will wind up with a system that is fully accepted
by the major distributors who will provide keys, which as others have
mentioned, many will not issue for software based players.

In the end, the server and AJA 2xSDI>HDMI box (which aren't cheap!)
and some cables & incidental items wound up costing me just under
$3k USD, which really isn't a lot of money.

- - and I think it was worth it.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-29-2018, 02:49 PM:
 
Agreed with everything that has been said here about why the original request is a bad idea.

One option, if the OP is comfortable screening MP4, etc. files (I wouldn't be, but he says that he is), is to convert the unencrypted DCP files into something playable with existing equipment. ffmpeg can do this and, I think, DCP-o-Matic is also capable. The only potential problem is that there is no easy way that I know of to deal with DCPs that have in and out points for each reel that are not the same as the start and end of each reel's file. It is not an elegant approach, but it might suffice for the occasional screening.
 
Posted by Karim Benmachiche (Member # 10647) on 10-29-2018, 06:40 PM:
 
Thanks for all the replies so far.

This has made me reconsider some things. We might still go with the original plan, but now are taking a step back to reconsider all possibilities. First thing is to contact the distributors we are regularly working with to see if they'd accept a non-DCI setup.

We will also contact the Cinematheque in Leipzig to discuss the A-Cinema Project, and see how its been going for them so far, be it technically, or with distributors.

And also to investigate possible second hand equipment available locally.

Leo: I hadn't really thought about SSDs this way, it is something to take into account indeed. What I maybe failed to mention is that we really don't do many screenings compared to big venues. We're at about 70-80 screenings a year, so the hours of use cannot really be compared with those of a heavy duty cinema server. Regardless, if a drive fails, it would indeed be nice to have it in RAID1 at least.. better safe than sorry.

Please, don't hesitate to keep the information coming. It is extremely helpful to come up with the best solution for us.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-29-2018, 09:12 PM:
 
GDC has abandoned hard drives all together in it's new SR-1000 IMB server, and has switched to using cache memory of some sort. I just had one of my customers in Wyoming install three of them and so far they are running fine. They can also be fed content from a central server although I am not clear yet as to weather thats streaming content or if that server is just used as content storage and then it gets moved over to the SR-1000... but I suspect the latter. They do interface just fine to the GDC TMS as long as you have the latest version of TMS running. GDC has now included almost all servers out there on their server selection setup.

Mark
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-29-2018, 10:01 PM:
 
If the new GDC thing is the same one I saw at Cinemacon, it uses M-2 flash cards. Whether they're the PCI-E, SATA, or something more esoteric like Intel Optane, I'm not sure.

Karim - for a conventional DCP playback setup based around a PC, I can't think of any argument in favor of SSDs. For the price of a single 1TB SSD, you could buy two enterprise grade spinning rust drives of the same capacity, and still have a fair bit of change. Even running at the full 250mbps, you're not going to need the extra read speed advantage that a SSD theoretically would give you (I say theoretically, because in most situations, the data transfer speed from the SATA interface to the motherboard is the limiting factor, not what the drive itself is capable of).

The lifetime of a HDD is determined mainly by the number of hours it's spinning; with a SSD, it's the number of write cycles per sector (reading does not take much life out of flash memory; writing does). A drive for media storage will likely see a lot of writing, reading only once or twice, then delete and rewrite, a usage pattern that will be hard on a SSD.

Why GDC has chosen to go the solid state storage route I'm not sure. Maybe their system primarily involves live streamed playback from the central TMS/library server, with local storage only being used to supplement that when the media LAN bandwidth is under pressure. I didn't manage to get to any of the GDC presentations, and I haven't had to install one of these things yet, so I don't know the details.

IMHO, the advantages of SSDs are their robustness (no moving parts that are vulnerable to mechanical shock), their lower power consumption, and their higher read speed. This makes them perfect for use in laptops - less risk of FUBAR-ing it if you drop the laptop, (or if the plane runs out of overhead bin space, you're forced to check your bag, and it gets tossed around by baggage handlers), the battery lasts longer, and it boots quicker. The disadvantages are their higher cost, write cycles being the determining factor of service life, and the fact that you'll get little if any warning (e.g. SMART errors) before it suddenly drops dead.
 
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-30-2018, 04:12 AM:
 
Karim - how large is your screen?

I have seen second hand DCI setups being sold at around 11.000-13.000€ during the last two years. While I understand you description of your budgetary constraints, Switzerland is not a poor country, and sums like that SHOULD be able to be activated through sponsoring, crowd funding, etc. I know many small cinemas that went the sub-DCI route for a shorter or longer while, some of them were prepared to shell out 8.000-15.000€. I was able to convince most of them to save most of that money and try a low cost approach until the money was there to go DCI.

That second hand gear I am talking about is not worn out stuff already breaking apart with no spare parts available. These were machines still in production. The problem is, you have to wait until something suitable turns up.

If you have a decent PC currently, then that may be your starting point for now.

- Carsten
 
Posted by Karim Benmachiche (Member # 10647) on 10-30-2018, 04:59 PM:
 
Current screen size is 5m x 3m and we are getting a new one which will be 6m x 4m (approx).

Switzerland is not a poor country indeed, but it also comes with the fact that gear is overpriced compared to other neighboring countries... and the current situation of movie theaters in our area (i.e. french-speaking part of the country) is kind of a sad wasteland. Lots of theaters closed before the switch to digital, and now you have big groups like Pathé selling a single tickets > 20$, and a few smaller theaters struggling to survive.

Our case is a bit particular, as we are helped by the city which pays our rent, we don't have a really dedicated venue, it's an old wine production cellar (so the rent is really low...), and since we don't have salaries, there is not much risk, we just have to have our bar and entrances paying for the movies and the maintenance cost of the venue, insurance, etc. We close most years with -1000$ to +1000$ profit...

So yes, we managed to raise some money, but we are organized as what we call in french an association, I guess it's kind of a union (a bit like an amateur sports club)? I don't know the word in english... in german it's Verein. And we have our own regulation, which prohibits private sponsorship in order to stay completely independent. Yes, I know it's complicated... So the fundings are rather limited, but state and national lottery gave us something. But with the amount of gear to replace/upgrade (audio, screen, electrical work, sanitary work), it's hard to allow more than 11000-13000$ for the complete setup.

I believe you when you say a decent second hand DCI setup might be found for that price, but our other problem is that we are in a hurry due to our current projector crapping out on us. I sent a few inquiries here and there to see if there was a DCI setup available in the area, so we'll see, but with the current situation of movie theaters I described above, I doubt we'll find anything on short notice.

Thanks for all the ideas and help so far. We are now waiting on other experiences and testimonials from venues in the country and in Germany we believe might be using a system similar to the one we are considering, and we'll see what they say. I am also looking at options for an enterprise grade RAID configuration instead of an SSD.
 
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-31-2018, 03:58 AM:
 
Hmm. 6x4 is not easy to cover on a budget projectorwise if you are after a decent image quality...

What do you have now?

- Carsten
 
Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 10-31-2018, 05:43 AM:
 
Of note DaVinci Resolve 15 plays back unencrypted DCPs with out any problem. You can also make them. The base version is free and the pro version is only $400 CND. Probably your best bang for your buck as it also can of course be used as a colour grader, non-linear editor and you can even do some film damage restoration on it (dust dusting etc...).
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-31-2018, 07:43 AM:
 
quote: Karim Benmachiche
I don't know the word in english... in german it's Verein.
The British term is Film Society, though I haven't heard it used here since moving to the United States. In fact, I haven't encountered any totally volunteer-run movie theaters here at all: the more usual model for these venues seems to be a nonprofit organization with a small core of paid staff (sometimes only one or two), plus a group of volunteers around them to support them.

Back to topic, if you are going to go the PC route, at least for now, the other thing to consider is audio. I don't know what processor you used for 35mm and/or if you still have it, but ideally you'll want an audio card (if the motherboard you're using does not have a suitable one onboard) that can give you the 5.1 or 7.1 channels in whatever form your processor can accept them. If the built-in audio card only does 2.0 L/R, that's no good.

Probably the easiest is an HDMI output that will give you 48KHz LPCM on all channels embedded into the video, going to a 1 > 2 splitter, with one of the outputs going to the projector and the other to the audio processor. This would give you the option of using any audio processor from cheap (ish) consumer - e.g. a Denon or Yahama model at around the $500 mark - through to professional cinema. Analog out from the PC is a possibility, but brings with it potential balance, level and ground hum control issues.
 
Posted by Sam Cuthbert (Member # 4857) on 10-31-2018, 11:22 AM:
 
I suggest taking a very cautious approach to this. Having now interacted with two of these systems, one at a volunteer run film society type place and the other a brand new cinema that was sold this as their DCP system, both have bitten the bullet and replaced them.

Volunteer cinema went with second hand Series 1 kit (there's lots of machines in the UK from the DSN rollout that are still working fine-ish) and the new cinema sold off their wildly expensive Barco AV projector and used the money plus other funds to buy a whole new Series 2 system.

The reason both upgraded was not functionality or reliability but that distributors would not give either of these sites DCP's to run. They were both playing Art House/Rep films and just couldn't convince enough distributors to issue them keys for their software players. I would be asking every distributor I've worked with in the past few years (and the post production houses they work with like Deluxe, MPS etc) if they would be prepared to issue a key for a non DCI compliant DCP system before investing.

I hope indie distributors will loosen up, I feel its encouraging to see several distributors who now have done away with KDMs, and I'm all for reducing the cost associated with DCP installation but from two hands on examples this year I've seen this isn't happening quickly.

Good luck whatever route you go down and let us know how you get on!
 
Posted by Karim Benmachiche (Member # 10647) on 10-31-2018, 04:43 PM:
 
Sam, thanks a lot for chiming in, this is really good to know. We're now waiting on several answers from distributors and other cinemas regarding the use of a non-DCI system. I will of course let you know how it goes, with the hope that others can benefit from our time spent! [Smile]

quote: Carsten Kurz
Hmm. 6x4 is not easy to cover on a budget projectorwise if you are after a decent image quality...

What do you have now?
- Carsten
Until now with the 5x3 screen we had a 9yo BenQ SP890 which is dying, and an Infocus IN5148HD on loan.

With the new screen (actually, I don't know anything about it, it might end up smaller than 6x4. 6x4 is what we're paying raw on the screen material, after the tech measured the current screen and gave us a quote. it might end up something like 5.5x3.5), for now we're looking at the Panasonic PT-MZ770 (3LCD laser).

quote: Leo Enticknap
the other thing to consider is audio
Audio processor will most likely be a second hand CP650 or datasat or similar, depending on what we can find, but yes, my intention was to use hdmi to output the sound from the computer either with a splitter, or directly into the processor (in case of a processor with a video pass-thru hdmi out for example). For now, audio is still secondary due to the urgency of replacing the projection system but it will be the next big question once the first one is resolved. Current system is not really a cinema system, it's a diy 3.1 system built with (quality) second hand concert gear. I would very much like to have a dedicated sound system for screenings only, and to separate the concert system altogether.
 
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-31-2018, 04:55 PM:
 
Do you want to keep 35mm capability?

- Carsten
 
Posted by Karim Benmachiche (Member # 10647) on 10-31-2018, 05:10 PM:
 
The 35mm hasn't been hooked up in over 5 years, and the last time it was was just when I joined the committee, so I don't know how it works, especially regarding the sound. But yes, we are keeping the projector, also "just in case" we or some local festival has the use for it once. afaik it was projecting on the 5x3 screen
 
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-01-2018, 04:50 PM:
 
A second hand JSD80 or Datasat XD10P is still a usable processor, even for a digital-only installation. However, they lack HDMI audio support, so, you would need some converter in-between.
I equipped a small club-cinema with a Marantz 7.1 Surround-Receiver that offers multiple HDMI inputs (as well as S/P-DIF, TOSLINK, analog) and switching options. Some of these receivers offer preamp outputs for every channel, so you can hook up external amps as well. This setup works well (today, they play sound from a DCI server through it), although these receivers are not as straight to operate as real cinema processors and you have to keep a close eye on them, better hide the remote away and lock as many controls as possible.

Again - try to keep the cost for an 'intermediate' projector as low as possible and try to aim for a second hand series 2 DCI system.

We do use a Sony 515 4k system, and I know some small cinemas were able to install these with some funding, but I guess you won't find them second hand below 20.000€.
Maybe you can find ways to import cheaper second hand gear from France, Germany or Austria. Don't know for North-Italy.

- Carsten
 
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 11-02-2018, 06:01 PM:
 
There are organizations (at least in the states I would imagine Europe would be the same) that rent servers and Media Blocks so you could always use the projector with "Alternative Content" any time and then rent in the server and media block when you need too. We handle some festivals that do this as well as others who rent the entire projector as well.
 
Posted by Karim Benmachiche (Member # 10647) on 12-12-2018, 03:05 PM:
 
Hey all,

So, about a month later we have replaced the screen (~5mx3m) and projector (3LCD Panasonic MZ770).

We have contacted all the independent distributors we've worked with in recent times, and they have all assured us they would be ok to give us either unencrypted DCPs or have no problem giving us the key if we screen using NeoDCP.

I purchased spare parts for a beast PC that we'll assemble ourselves, cost was kept <2000$.

Only the audio question remains and I would like your advice. Thanks already Carsten for your post above.

We will have 2 main sources: computer and bluray player.

I see two possibilities:

1. Like it was suggested, send audio through hdmi. Downside: it's either an AP-20/25 (expensive) or some kind of home theater surround receiver (with potential operational issues). I want the system to be as straightforward in its usage as possible, so I don't think the surround receiver solution is a viable one.

2. Output using the digital outputs on the computer and bluray player. This would be toslink and coaxial. I saw the USL-JSD60 seems not too expensive and has both. What I am not sure, is whether it would be ok regarding the type of files we would receive. Is there a risk we could get files with only TrueHD or DTS-MA audio? My guess is no, but I just want to make sure.

Let's face it, we'll probably have >90% of files (h264 or dcps), and <10% of physical mediums. And most likely 1% of 16/35mm (actually, the main art school just asked us if they could use our venue to screen in 16mm) - 16/35mm could be simply screened in stereo as it has been until now. The JSD60 seems like an easy choice, but I am not sure if I am missing something...

Thanks for your opinions [Smile]
 
Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-12-2018, 06:52 PM:
 
The JSD-60 will decide Dolby Digital and DTS coming in on Toslonk or S/PDIF. It does not use the katest bitstream, but I THINK the bitstreams are downward compatible. Also, if your player has a decoder and analog out you could drive the 6 channel analog input on yhe JSD-60.

Harold
 
Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-13-2018, 12:00 AM:
 
I HATE typing on phones! What I said above, without the typos:

The JSD-60 will decode Dolby Digital and DTS coming in on Toslink or S/PDIF. It does not use the latest bitstream, but I THINK the bitstreams are downward compatible. Also, if your player has a decoder and analog out you could drive the 6 channel analog input on the JSD-60.

Harold
 
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-13-2018, 08:36 AM:
 
Using HDMI audio has some benefit when a PC is used - as it inherently takes care of video/audio clock sync. Using separate devices for video and audio (even if the audio is digital as with TOSLINK or S/P-DIF) does not guarantee hard sync for long pieces.

Harold - why isn't there a JSD60 with HDMI audio decoding...?! [Confused]

Well of course I can guess why, it's just a pity the JSD60 didn't make it towards HDMI audio. It would be such a great choice to have.

- Carsten
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-13-2018, 12:27 PM:
 
The JSD-60 was/is such a near-miss. It NEEDs two more digital audio channels to deal with the ADA stuff. It should be able to decode DCP 2.0 content without having to remap the world and yes, the HDMI decoder would have been sweet.
 
Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-13-2018, 04:54 PM:
 
I agree the JSD-60 is not optimum for every situation. When we designed it, the vast majority of auditoriums were 5.1, and we wanted to keep costs down. So, while the JSD-60 can handle 7.1, it then cannot do a D/A conversion of VI. We discussed adding the extra hardware, but could not justify it at that time.

On HDMI, it's complicated and hard to make it work! Our thought was that the HDMI should go to the media block since that's where the video needs to go, and the media block has an AES/EBU audio path back to the sound processor. The CMS-2200, CMS-5000, and other media block/server systems have HDMI inputs that can route extracted audio to the AES/EBU outputs.

Harold
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-13-2018, 05:57 PM:
 
The problem in this case is that there is no media block: a software DCP player in a PC is being used. Therefore, you have no AES out for the DCP audio (unless you buy a phenomenally expensive sound card that has this feature), and are left with the choice of embedded HDMI audio, analog 7.1, TOSlink or co-axial S/PDIF.

I don't know if the JSD-60 does, but the JSD-100 can handle 7.1 plus the ADA amenities (I don't know if these amenities are also a legal requirement in Switzerland, and if they're not, whether or not Karim wants to provide them anyways), and it has an analog 7.1 in via a DB25 connector, as well as AES, TOSlink and S/PDIF.

If you don't want to get involved in the logistics of pushing compressed 7.1 through TOSlink or S/PDIF, you could use the analog for PC audio (you'd need a breakout cable, but those aren't hard to make or source), and an HDMI to AES converter for the BD player. The converter box would add a bit to the cost, though.

Out of curiosity, can the software DCP player being used handle CCAPs, and if so, how does it send them to the transmitter? Can it see a USL infra-red transmitter or a Doremi Accesslink box on the management subnet using the PC's own NIC, in the same way that a regular DCP server does?
 
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-13-2018, 06:46 PM:
 
quote: Leo Enticknap
Out of curiosity, can the software DCP player being used handle CCAPs
No, NeoDCP can not handle CCAPs - but in europe, CCAP or HI/VI-N support is not mandatory for exhibition.

Per-user smartphone based solutions like Greta&Starks are in widespread use here now.

- Carsten
 
Posted by Karim Benmachiche (Member # 10647) on 12-13-2018, 06:53 PM:
 
If we were to use an AES/EBU PCIe sound card (which are around 800$ if I am not mistaken), to drive a JSD-60 or CP750, would we have video/audio sync? or is it hdmi only?

(my guess is no, but this is getting beyond my enthusiast knowledge [Smile] and I apologize if it is a silly question [Confused] )

Leo, since we're not a professional theater, we are not bound to provide ADA amenities - we have never done it until now. Regarding your other question, I don't know the software enough yet to be able to answer them!
 




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