Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CAT 745 error again

This is topic CAT 745 error again in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=003485

Posted by Hai Dinh (Member # 8654) on 11-02-2018, 08:06 AM:

This morning it appears that IMB security tamper, IMB low battery, IMB rtc error. Then I tried to change battery it appears same plus IMB marriage broken.
I checked the old battery it voltage is not enough.
What should I do now?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 11-02-2018, 08:36 AM:

I haven't seen this on a Dolby IMB, but if the system is communicating properly and it really has these errors, if the battery has gone too low and the secure clock has been lost... the IMB must be returned to Dolby for reserializing. DCI security rules say the serial number must be retired and a new one installed when the media block has lost its clock and decryption certificates.
Some other brands (doremi for sure) will show this type of errors if communication to the IMB media block is lost or the projector is powered off: the main server computer looks for the IMB and if it can't find it, it shows a lot of errors about the secure time being missing and such. Dolby, I don't know.

Posted by Magnus Eriksson (Member # 6085) on 11-02-2018, 09:44 AM:

You (or your tech/service company) should ask for "the amnesia exchange program" at the Dolby service portal. They might ask you for a logfile from Cat745 (it's not the log package that you can retrieve from the UI) to confirm that the mediablock suffers from "amnesia".
/M.E.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-02-2018, 10:16 AM:

The cat745 should give you the low battery warning before amnesia actually sets in, so to speak. I've changed one in which the battery low warning was appearing in Show Manager, and it was OK afterwards.

The battery change procedure on a cat745 is a bit tricky. Because the battery holders are vertical, you need either to be wearing rubber gloves, or to pull and insert the batteries using plastic tweezers, to avoid shorting anything in the process.

Hai - I take it that you did put a CR2032 in the smaller battery reader before swapping out the CR2477N in the larger one? If you didn't, then the certificate has gone for sure. The CR2032 maintains the memory temporarily while you swap out the main battery.

If you do return the 745 to Dolby for repair, they will remove the two battery holders and replace them with a supercapacitor. I was told that they were seeing occasional corrosion issues on the connections between the battery holders and the motherboard, so they decided to go this route. The supercap should be good for ten years on the shelf, apparently.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-02-2018, 03:25 PM:

I have a technician friend here in the States that has had this happen on a half dozen CAT 745's... so far and he ended up RMAing all of them. Its exactly the same problem that GDC went through with Cert batteries, except Dolbly seems to want to cover this up and has not issued any service bulliten on reccomended battery replacement intervals. GDC on the other hand issued a service bulliten once they figured out what was killing their media blocks.

Mark

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-02-2018, 05:07 PM:

Show Manager should give you a low battery alert in good enough time to swap it out. That having been said, cat745 batteries last a long time - a lot longer than GDC SX-3000 ones. If I remember the installation manual correctly, I think that they're officially supposed to be good for eight years. I recommend replacement of the battery in any cat745 I find that is (or I suspect is) more than five years old.

I agree with you on the lack of a published procedure, and think it would be a good idea if Dolby would publish a PDF "how to," like the ones that exist for the Doremi and GDC IMBs. The batteries shorting in the vertical holders gotcha was something I picked up from a post on here (can't remember whose - possibly Steve), and equipped my tool bag with plastic tweezers immediately after reading it.

Also, Dolby offers a very reasonably priced one-time repair service for the cat745, no matter how old it is (I sent one in that had serial number H0000022). For a GDC IMB that is out of warranty, the only way you can get it repaired if it loses the certificate is to reactivate the warranty, which is a four-figure bill.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-02-2018, 05:10 PM:

In versions prior to 4.8.2, CAT 745 software had a bug in reporting secure clock battery voltage.

- Carsten

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 11-02-2018, 08:03 PM:

One problem with these replaceable batteries is the contact between the battery and the battery holder. In most cases, these are both nickle. Nickle/nickle contacts just don't work that great with extremely low currents (the RTC and private key holding chip draw about 10 uA). In the CMS-2200, we finally went to a larger soldered-in battery which appears to have eliminated the lost key issue. A super capacitor typically does not hold enough energy to hold up the security circuitry for a long time. The CMS-5000 uses a super capacitor to hold up the security circuit for at least two weeks, then a lithium cell for beyond that. In most installations, power is never drawn from the (soldered in) lithium cell.

Harold

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-02-2018, 08:39 PM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
For a GDC IMB that is out of warranty, the only way you can get it repaired if it loses the certificate is to reactivate the warranty, which is a four-figure bill.

I think the ~$400 a year fee to cover your GDC is pretty reasonable considering they'll replace every nut and bolt on the server if need be to get it going again reliably. The warranty also includes their fantastic support. I even had them replace the entire server that was already six years old at an important site that was affected by an intermittent studder problem. And those parts are always there the next day. You only pay return shipping. GDC has not had issues with the battery holders that I am aware of, nor have they had to go to a solder in battery.

Another part with occasional battery issues is the Texas Instruments ICP and it's two batteries. One is replaceable and one is not. The one that is not is "supposed to be" a 12 year battery after which you will have to replace the entire ICP if you like using your projector. The ICP also makes use of a super capacitor to hold a charge while changing the clock battery. It does not seem to work very well and I lost an ICP while changing that battery, probably because the super capacitor was bad.

Mark

Posted by Hai Dinh (Member # 8654) on 11-03-2018, 02:58 AM:

I live in Vietnam. And it billed me 1300usd for a replacement one. How much if I sent it to Dolby for reload? And where I can send it to? I means maybe Singapore, Hongkong...?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-03-2018, 08:52 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I think the ~$400 a year fee ...

It's more than that, and, until recently, depending on your screen count, it could be a lot more. However, I agree, the "multiplex" fee was reasonable. If you have an SX2001/SX2000, that option disappears after March 2019 and after October 2019 for the SX2000AR even though the 2000AR uses the same IMB as the SX3000.

As for their "fantastic support" yes it is great. However, everyone else doesn't charge for their support.

It's too bad they don't go into a solder-in battery that lasts 10+ years...the 2-3 year battery on the SX3000 is a joke (the SX2000AR lasts much longer though). A Solder-in SuperCAP combined with a battery would have been a better solution with a regular battery change out plan.

As for the CAT745...it was a USL design and there have always been heavy cautions about the batteries. Yes, one has to be extra careful about changing them.

Yes, for a VERY low fee, Dolby will change the batteries out to a permanent one that should probably last the life of the server.

Dolby doesn't change their serial numbers (despite what other have posted, it isn't a DCI compliance thing...in fact, the issue was with one company that would change a serial number!). What happens on the battery swap is that since the certificate is lost, a new one must be loaded. The serial number remains the same but the certificate is different so all new keys have to be had for movies. Honestly, I'd rather that they changed the serial number to avoid confusion. Same is true with the CAT862, by the way. If it gets serviced, odds are, you need all new KDMs for the SAME serial number. At least Dolby now has it were anyone can download the current certificate for any of their mediablocks.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-03-2018, 09:30 PM:

quote: Harold Hallikainen
Nickle/nickle contacts just don't work that great with extremely low currents (the RTC and private key holding chip draw about 10 uA).

Maybe that's why GDC use those weird batteries with one of the poles in the form of a pin protruding from the bottom of them in the SX-3000.

quote: Steve Guttag
Honestly, I'd rather that they changed the serial number to avoid confusion. [...] At least Dolby now has it were anyone can download the current certificate for any of their mediablocks.

True, but the problem is that unless the end user knows that the cert has changed and is proactive about warning the distributors that supply their content (which in about 95% of cases means Deluxe Technicolor and probably no-one else), they're going to continue to use the one they have on file, and the first the end user will know about it is when a KDM won't work and they can't figure out why. Agreed completely that a new serial number would be preferable. Maybe there is a DCI restriction over that - that a media block has to keep one serial number for life, to reduce the risk that someone will try to build a counterfeit media block (the same thinking behind most states' DMVs having a ban of some years between a vehicle being deregistered and that license plate number being allowed to be reused - in CA's case, I believe it's 20).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-04-2018, 09:19 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
It's more than that

Well, it is more if your server has lost it's certs... Then an SX-3000 is $900. It is exactly that price on multiple servers/sites, but it is like $150 more if you elect to get hard drive coverage, so it would be $550 per server per year, and also depending on how much your dealer marks it up. Theaters get discounts for signing for multiple years (2) and multiple servers (2 or more). Wrong for instance charges a ludricous 4 digit figure for warranty extension. Close to $3000 if your SX-3000 lost it's certs!

All my customers deal directly with GDC on Warranty extension because there isn't enough profit in it to pay to do the paperwork involved. They call the warranty gal there and they get billed for it, warranty keys are emailed to me for installation. Pretty simple. None of my customers get HD coverage, they all get HD's from Newegg, Server Supply, or Amazon. With the TMS they also deal direct with them, and GDC emails me the new key for installation.

Mark