Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 4k vs 2k on 30' wide screen

This is topic 4k vs 2k on 30' wide screen in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Tim Schroepfer (Member # 8746) on 01-03-2019, 02:06 PM:

Friends,

We are in the process of specifying a new DCP cinema system to replace 2 reel to reel 35mm systems and a hodgepodge digital projection system. One of the points we are having trouble sorting is if we should invest in 4k or go with 2k. The difference between a CP4325 and a CP2315 is about 40k.

Our screen size in scope is 30' wide and flat 24' roughly. With all the 4k gear we see the lamp size or laser output is much brighter than we would need to achieve 14 fL and would pose some challenges in damping down the brightness - especially with Xeon. House seats 680 and throw is 80'

We show 2 DVDs per month and carry all the BYE Cinema content (met/ bolshoi/ ntlive). Our goal is to operate the new system for 10 years before looking at an upgrade.

Is the 40k worth the investment?

Thanks for your help.

-Tim Schroepfer
Mahaiwe PAC

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-03-2019, 02:24 PM:

How many shows per typical year?

- Carsten

Posted by Tim Schroepfer (Member # 8746) on 01-03-2019, 02:32 PM:

Carsten,

We show on average about 60 films or broadcasts per year. We are the marquee theater for a small but growing and respected film festival. BIFFMA.org. They rent in a DCP system as we don't have one. They would use our system once we make the upgrade. That would add another 20 films a year so 80 total.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-03-2019, 02:44 PM:

We have a 30' screen here with 194 seats and about a 90 foot throw. Our 2K system has been just fine.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-03-2019, 03:09 PM:

Unless the fest insists on 4K and the rental income would justify the investment, I'm having trouble making a case for this.

To my eyes, a screen has to be at least 50-60 feet wide in 'scope, and I have to be sitting within about 20 feet of it, to be able to see a detail gain from 4K. Also, you take a contrast hit with 4K using a xenon-lit projector, and most mainstream studio DCPs are still 2K only. The latter may change over the course of ten years, though.

I do service one site that has a Barco DP4K-23B, with roughly the same throw and screen size as yours. Sitting in the best seats (for sightlines) in the house, I really can't see any picture quality gain in 4K.

If there is an argument in favor, it's that 4K may be a selling point for private rental customers. Some indie and screening room customers who don't have 4K are starting to tell me that this is costing them business.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-03-2019, 03:15 PM:

Stay with 2K . majority of the content issued is scanned in 2K.

Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 01-03-2019, 03:24 PM:

Don't throw out your 35mm if you don't have to.

Posted by Tim Schroepfer (Member # 8746) on 01-03-2019, 03:33 PM:

Jack,

The decision to kill the 35mm is a tough one. We put in two new 2k xeon Christie Consoles with Century SA heads in 2006 when the building was being redone instead of putting in a digital system. Over the years the 35mm system has seen less and less use. We only have 400 hours on the 35mm system. Every now and then we want to show a 35mm print, but find that some of what we want to show on 35mm just doesn't have quality prints available. Over my 4 years at the theater we have had a total of 5 35mm screenings. We show Wizard of Oz every year on 35mm and that is the last hold out. We also don't have an audience that is motivated by seeing movies on film. I worked at UCLA and living in LA I got to see a number of things on film and I really enjoyed the experience.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 01-03-2019, 03:37 PM:

I mentioned this in another thread. So far it has only been a single distributor of rep films, but it could possibly grow.
Said distributor will only allow a certain set of films to be shown in 4k, as per rights holder demands.
We couldn't show the films enough to ever justify the cost of a 4k upgrade, but if rep is part of you program, and others start making this demand, then it may have a negative effect on your programming. But then, so does not having 3D.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-03-2019, 03:44 PM:

Tim - have you considered buying a Sony 4k system? It gives you 4k AND great contrast (where 4k DLP suffers). And it can be bought at what you have been quoted the difference between 2k and 4k DLP. It offers a couple of other benefits as well for locations like your's.

How far away from the screen is your first seat row?

- Carsten

Posted by Tim Schroepfer (Member # 8746) on 01-03-2019, 03:50 PM:

Martin,

We weren't granted licenses to show 007 films as the rights holder demanded to show them only on DCP and not Blu-Ray. Part of my concern is future proofing this purchase and 4k plays into that. The smaller 2k projectors have the smaller chip and won't have an upgrade path to 4k or so I am told.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 01-03-2019, 05:48 PM:

The new Sony 815 throws and incredible image. For 3D you would need a polarized screen.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-03-2019, 08:26 PM:

Go with the xenon projector and buy an aperture kit. You can run the current on the smallest bulb way down if you need to, but the aperture kit will increase contrast (at the expense of a little bit of light). Also get a high contrast lens, not the high brightness lens.

Personally I think 4K is overrated. You don't even show that much content and you have a small screen vs. the size of the room. 2K should be just fine for you.

I know Carsten loves the Sonys, but they require constant maintenance to not look terrible. I don't think you want to get into that.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 01-03-2019, 10:17 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
2K should be just fine for you.

As a plus, the 2k chip does have higher native contrast.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-04-2019, 02:06 AM:

With 60 shows a year, it is probably hard to make the case for a 4K DLP machine.

For me, the case of 4K is not so much dependent on screen size, but much more on theater seating configuration.

There is an increasing trend to maximize the screen size compared to the size of the room and to put people as close as possible to the screen. This increased form of "immersion" is often sold as a premium concept (PLF) and does, in my opinion, only fit a limited amount of content.

In those kind of configurations, even 2K content on a 4K projector will have benefits for those sitting close to the screen.

For traditional setups, the benefit of 4K is much more limited. It will primarily benefit those sitting in the first few rows of the screen. The reduced contrast of the 4K DLP machines further negates their purpose, in such a setup.

Posted by Frank B. McLaughlin (Member # 6683) on 01-04-2019, 04:34 AM:

And for those sitting in the back 4K will produce a better perceived 2K image.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-04-2019, 06:57 AM:

Just noting that the model numbers the OP listed (CP4325 and CP2315) are both RGB laser projectors, not xenon.

The CP4325-RGB can hit 6000:1 on the contrast ratio so, as 4K goes, it beats most any xenon 2K machine by a factor of 3:1

For a 10-year investment...where do you technology going? 10-years from now, 4K will likely be very much the standard if we aren't already moving to 8K.

The point some make about not having a lot of 4K content, at the moment, is valid but slowly, that is changing and will continue to do so since the ultimate end-game for movies in the home...which is already 4K on all new systems (of any size).

If I'm right and you are talking about laser projectors, definitely do NOT undersize the projector. The key to laser life is running them cool. If the projector can barely hit your light or even be in the 85-90% power range on day-1, you'll be hating life when it can't make light before the 10-years is up. Most rate the laser life as when it drops to 1/2 output and typically in the 20K-30K hours. But 1/2 output of 14fL is 7!!! Once it drops below 11fL you are out of spec and it WILL start to look dingy before then. So think a bit of down-the-road.

Another thing to consider is protecting your investment. Since you are a single, I'd recommend on getting an extended warranty for those 10-years. Things do break and you might not be able to find the $10,000-$20,000 to get it fixed on no notice. So you might weigh the cost of an appropriately sized 2K projector, warranted for 10-years versus the 4K with the standard 3-year warranty.

Posted by Tim Schroepfer (Member # 8746) on 01-04-2019, 07:48 AM:

Steve,

Thank you for bringing up the extended warranty. That option had not crossed my desk.

Yes we are looking at RBG laser technology. According to the Christie cinema configurator tool, for the 2315 at 14fL we would be running at 40% brightness in scope and 24% in scope. We have hvac in our booth and would re-purpose the extraction system used with the 35mm to vent the laser projector to keep it cool. My understanding is Christie wants to see something like 70-80 degree air around the projector.

As for 4k content, I've been talking with our license partners and they had some of the rep content on 4k, some only on Blu-Ray and the majority available as 2K. I'm sure as the tech moves on in the coming years we will see much more 4k available. My guess is when studios start getting strong demand from Netflix, Disney+, Hulu and the legacy cable companies for 4k movies, we will see the studios release more 4k content to the rep market. I also understand that Texas Instruments is being pushed to make a 4k version of the .98 chip which would open the door for the smaller 4k projectors. So I assume it's coming.

To everyone else, your comments have been exceptionally helpful and diverse. Thank you all. Keep them coming.

Posted by Bruce Cloutier (Member # 9615) on 01-04-2019, 10:22 AM:

There is value in up-scaling 2K content to 4K. It is worth keeping that in mind although I cannot speak for the theater. In fact, in my home situation I have given up waiting for 4K content. I have one of the original LG 4K LM8600 panels. By original, I mean it was probably the first in western PA and my dealer was one of the first if not the first to obtain and place the product. We worked directly with a VP at LG to make that happen. The dealer later went to CES and all of the other dealers were all excited that they would be getting this 4K panel but Harry already had one in the showroom and one installed in a customer's home. So... yeah, it cost me like $20K.

Here it is like 10 years later and I still have not watched a single complete 4K movie on it. But, I never once regret the investment. The up-scaled image lacks any sign of pixels and images are so much better. It is an 86" screen and we sit 12 feet from it but you can walk right up to it and still be impressed.

All I am saying is that while all of your content may be 2K, how that content is rendered can make a big difference IMHO.

For a very large screen, you will want 8K even if original content remains 2K. Again IMHO.

Also, not everything is about ROI. That $40K invested in the image might be generating more value in intangibles than it would sitting in the bank at some pittance of an interest rate. If you are going to finance it, that is another matter. I'm personally debt-adverse. You don't want to get me on a rant about banks and financing.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-04-2019, 12:27 PM:

Tim,

It sounds to me like you're only considering Christie. Is this the case, and if so, have you already looked at the competitor models from Barco, NEC, and Sony, and ruled them out? If not, is there any reason why not?

If you did not previously have a DCI system, you will also need a server/IMB, or IMS. That in turn could influence your choice of projector model.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-04-2019, 12:50 PM:

I wouldn't know if I'd be so inclined to aim for a solid longterm investment and then buy the most recent breed of RGB laser projector with their potential early adopter issues. Longterm warranty or not, the xenon or UHP based projectors have a successful close-to-10year history now. Also, with so few shows per year, usability would be more important than consumables. That said, if they seriously consider a Christie series3 laser, they are probably not really short of money...

- Carsten

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-04-2019, 01:43 PM:

You have to balance early adopter issues vs. when the manufacturer pulls support. If you buy a newly released model, you face early adopter issues. If you buy a model that has been on the market for, say, over five years (e.g. the NEC 3200/3240 or Barco B series), the possibility exists that the manufacturer may cease production and then discontinue spares support a couple of years later. IMHO it would probably be unrealistic to plan to continue running a projector in revenue-earning service for more than 2-3 years after OEM spares availability has been discontinued.

Therefore, IMHO, if a ten-year service life is important, my gut feeling would be to go for a model that has been on the market for 2-3 years. An older model, still in production, which has an unusually large market share (i.e. there are a lot of them in use, and therefore spares support is likely to continue for some time), would also likely be OK. But an older model, still in production, but which never sold in large numbers, is a risk.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-04-2019, 04:12 PM:

Decisions, decisions, and decisions ... Checks and balances game here on where to go..

Big thing is the long term: to pay now, or pay later ...

Good Luck