Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Choosing new projector

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Posted by Gregor Phillips (Member # 10739) on 01-20-2019, 12:23 PM:

First time poster here.. hoping to get some thoughts on a new projector. We are setting up a room for post production. 20' screen. 27' throw. Right now we are considering a CP2215, Barco 8s or 8SLP, or 6E. What kind of image quality might we expect from these? I think we are fairly limited in price (40k USD), what might give us the most 'bang for buck'?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-20-2019, 12:48 PM:

Barcos with ICMP/Alchemy offer a nice set of realtime/alternative video inputs. Incl. 4K capability (even if the projector only displays 2k). HD-SDI/HDMI2.0 (with embedded audio), and a HDR option (upcharge).
Plus, you can create/playout DCPs incl. testing of encryption, etc.
The black level of these S2K machines, is mediocre though. I guess the 8S is slightly better than the DP2K-6E, but not much.

- Carsten

Posted by Gregor Phillips (Member # 10739) on 01-20-2019, 02:26 PM:

Thanks. Would anyone happen to know if the 10s would be a worthwhile improvement over the 8s in terms image quality? We're not sure about Alchemy, does look like a great feature set but we might be fine with just the basics, as this is for audio post.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 01-20-2019, 03:14 PM:

If your just an audio post-house then any of those choices will be good.

Posted by Gregor Phillips (Member # 10739) on 01-20-2019, 03:57 PM:

Ok thanks.. it's really for the client's benefit, we'd like to have the best image possible as this can be a real selling point in our industry. But if you think the difference between these projectors is negligible, then point taken.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 01-20-2019, 05:01 PM:

As for quality, they all use the same TI DMD set and the images will be the same. The lenses are different but I have not seen an image quality difference. Contrast is not as good as a larger chip DMD set (Barco C series or Christie CP2220 and up, or the extra large chips in the 2K Barco B series and equivalent Christie units).
The only difference between the 8s and 10s is the lamp size allowed - the projectors are exactly identical except for the maximum lamp power (and image brightness) capability.
All the Barco projectors you list are air cooled, there is no coolant to replace like in the Christie. The 6E is also quieter and smaller than any of the others. Barco also uses washable air filters so you don't need to replace them periodically like for the Christie, although the 6E filters need a day to dry after washing (a swap set is suggested for 24/7 operations).
You should look into the input requirements. With standard SDI input cards you have two SDI inputs - but a fairly old SDI spec with limited bandwidth - and two DVI inputs. Sourcing from a PC or workstation can be troublesome to configure, particularly for 3D projection.
If you get the Barco ICMP you have higher spec SDI inputs (3G?) and HDMI (plus DP on special order, I think) but lose the DVI inputs on the projector. Plus the ability to play DCP packages if that's worthwhile.
For either Barco or Christie with standard input you need an expensive TI "Enigma" decryption engine module to play encrypted cinema content (plus a cinema server, software players are available that play encrypted DCPs if you control the KDM generation - major title distributors won't make KDMs for "insecure" software players). If you don't want this decryption capability, you don't need to get (and pay $$$ for) this module.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-20-2019, 08:30 PM:

Just the basics, and audio post? You don't need any of these projectors then. While they are DCI compliant, they do not deliver the best image. For audio post, the projector does not even need to support P3 color (although I guess it is still advisable to buy a projector that does). You get a better picture for less money if you stay away from these entry level DCI projectors.

- Carsten

Posted by Gregor Phillips (Member # 10739) on 01-20-2019, 11:35 PM:

Interesting. So you can get a better picture for less money by staying away from a DCI? would you be able to give an example of one of these projectors?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-20-2019, 11:55 PM:

Note, on the projectors the OP listed, the CP2215 is NOT an S2K projector but based on the .98" chipset. The equivalent Barco projector is the DP2K-12C, which can run anywhere from 850-2200 watts.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 01-22-2019, 04:18 PM:

Sony VPL-VW5000ES is a very good performer. It is rated at 5000 Lumens but may not be enough light for you 20 ft screen. Be nice if you could get a demo in your space.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-22-2019, 08:44 PM:

Oh, well, you get a DCI compliant Sony 4k projector including DCP server for half of what the VW5000ES costs...

- Carsten

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 01-22-2019, 09:24 PM:

Not too much more then the projectors being talked about.

Edit: new one on Ebay for $40.9K.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-22-2019, 09:59 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The equivalent Barco projector is the DP2K-12C, which can run anywhere from 850-2200 watts.

In relation to Dave's post, the 12C is air cooled (it has a large fan between the light engine compartment and the card cage, that the 15C and 20C do not), and does not have a liquid cooling system. The 15C and 20C use liquid cooling for the light engine.

If the projector is to be operated in a blimp-like enclosure with accessibility for maintenance issues, this is probably a slightly better bet, because troubleshooting a coolant leak in such an enclosure is a whole bunch of no fun: the projector will almost certainly have to be lifted out. However, for the four-yearly "Smart Maintenance D," which in the case of the 12C means swapping out the fan rather than the pump, it makes no difference: the position of the fan within the chassis is such that you'd still need to take the projector out a blimp, if it is operated inside one.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 01-23-2019, 07:28 AM:

If you go with a Barco try to get a minolta lens if you can get one in the size you need.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-23-2019, 07:58 AM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
In relation to Dave's post, the 12C is air cooled (it has a large fan between the light engine compartment and the card cage, that the 15C and 20C do not)

All "C" projectors have that fan.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-23-2019, 11:56 AM:

But proactively replacing it every four years is only on the "smart maintenance" schedule for the 12C. On the 15C and 20C, the schedule tells you to replace the pump and check the fans for speed, noise and vibrations. Presumably their thinking is that if that fan fails in a 12, a significant risk exists that the light engine could get cooked before the lamp is shut down by overheat sensors, whereas in the 15C and 20C, the liquid cooling system does most of the work, and therefore the fan can be left until it dies.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-23-2019, 05:24 PM:

That fan is not on the Maintenance-D list for the 12C (looking at it in Communicator right now). All it says is to check the speeds of all fans, like on the other projectors.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-23-2019, 06:54 PM:

My apologies; you're right. The last (and only) time I did a four-yearly on a 12C was one that was encased in a blimp, 10 feet off the ground, and with nowhere to set the projector to work on or power it for testing within about 25 feet of its location (i.e. it would have to be carried a significant distance into the lobby to work on). This was actually after well over four years, and it hadn't received any maintenance at all at that time - at least if it had, it hadn't been documented (the bulb had done 4,800 hours!).

Looking at my notes, I see that I advised replacement of the light engine cooling fan regardless of its speed reading (which was well within the normal range indicated in the Communicator window), because it was sounding suspicious when I visited the site a week earlier (the reason I was called was a flickering bulb), and if it failed in operation and the projector overheated and shut down, replacement would require at least three people, two tall ladders, and several hours; and that's not factoring in the risk of light engine damage.

I was correct about no liquid cooling on that model, though.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 01-23-2019, 09:58 PM:

In my opinion the Christie 2215 has a better image than the rest. Think it is a combination of the .98 vs .69 chips and better lenses. The Barco C series which use the .98 chips is also very good. Not to fond of the 12c as it is easy to overheat.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-24-2019, 08:06 AM:

The DP2K-12C is probably our most popular projector. The only time I see overheat situations is insufficient exhaust while running one of the larger lamps (2.2K or 2.0K) at the top of its range and not well focused (the heat is hitting around the integration rod rather than going through).

The CP2210/15 is too small to dissipate its heat. The front of the lamp always has its coating flake off if running 1.8KW or larger.

The 2210 (I don't think it was fixed in the 2215) also has a rainbow esq light leak around the lens.

Servicing the 12C versus the 2210/15 is also no contest. Barco makes their projectors inherently more serviceable.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-24-2019, 08:14 AM:

I have almost no experience servicing Christies, and so can't comment on their serviceability.

However, as a general principle, it's worth pointing out that planning for the servicing of a projector should include considering the specifics of its physical installation. Servicing a projector that sits on a pedestal in a conventional booth is a very different task to doing one that is in a rabbit hutch/blimp enclosure, 10-15 feet above the ground, with only a 3-6 inches of clearance around and above it. A lot of our service work is in post houses and high end home theaters, and we frequently get pushback when we have to tell a customer that what would be a 30-minute task in a conventional booth is a four-hour call for three people in their installation, which involves lifting a 300-400lb projector down to the ground and then back up again.

The architects who design these theaters tend to be focused on minimizing the amount of invisible, behind-the-scenes space in them, without, it seems, taking into account the higher running costs of the equipment installed in them that often results from this approach.