quote: Steve Guttag

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As for alternative content, it does have an HDMI 2.0 input, which can handle the image and audio, providing it is plain jane LPCM or Dolby audio (no DTS, which eliminates most Blu-rays).

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Many if not most DVD/BD players can be configured to convert everything to uncompressed LPCM and output that, and only that. One gotcha with doing this is that if the connection from the player to the processor is optical or co-axial, the bandwidth of these cables limits you to two channels; but HDMI can cope with eight channels of LPCM.

However, configuring the player is something you need to remember to do at the installation stage.

Off the top of my head, the only cinema audio audio processor I can think of that can decode both consumer Dolby and DTS (as is typically found on DVDs and BDs) is the AP20/25, unless there are any QSC options that can (I've never had cause to try). The CP750/850, some if not all USL models and the Trinnov can decode Dolby, but AFAIK, not DTS.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-07-2019, 07:38 AM:
 
QSC's DCIO-H handles Dolby, DTS and, of course, LPCM. Dolby tops out at Dolby Digital Plus but DTS goes to DTS-HD.

The QSC/USL JSD60/100 can do Dolby and DTS
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-07-2019, 07:58 AM:
 
The JSD-100 in our screening room's booth cannot do DTS (at least, not as output by optical from our Oppo). When the output is set to bitstream, it'll decode Dolby, but if DTS output is selected on a disc that has it, the result is silence.
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-07-2019, 08:52 AM:
 
The Dolby CP850 adds Tru-HD decoding. But still no DTS (hardly a surprise), and it's not a cheap processor. Most if not all Blu-Ray discs have DTS as default digital audio plus 2 channel digital (usually with matrix encoding), Dolby Digital or Tru-HD and any other choices are options for the disc producer.
 

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Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 02-07-2019, 09:03 AM:
 
As Steve points out, the JSD-60 can do Dolby and DTS decoding. The JSD-100 only does Dolby. We never got a DTS license for the JSD-100.

Harold
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-07-2019, 10:07 AM:
 
Using the same DI-84 board? I thought the idea of the DI-84 being used on the various JSD series was to avoid having to design and re-license everything. What a serious gaffe there.

I wonder what the CMS5000 decodes. It will be able to decode up to 64-channels of DTS-X and claims Dolby Digital Plus on "bitstream" but no mention of DTS for bitstream.

Honestly, if the processors choose to decode just one or the other, I don't have time to mess with them; I don't need caveats to what a customer can play or how a device has to be set up to magically work. We're in the movie business...people are going to play movies from consumer grade sources for the foreseeable future. You need to support both DTS and Dolby (I I didn't do it). The CP850 has a black eye from the combination of lack of analog multi-channel inputs as well as lack of DTS decoding. Datasat got it right by supporting both and QSC got it right on the DCIO-H. It would appear that on the JSD60 it was thought out but on the JSD100...the more deluxe one (though earlier), it never got the DTS software (same board)?
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-07-2019, 06:15 PM:
 
While I am all for Datasat, I understand it's not always possible to employ one.
So I think the DTS issue is best solved by a Bluray player that will decode all formats to discrete PCM multichannel. However, that only works through HDMI, which means, the processor also needs to offer an HDMI input for audio. So, back at Datasat (or QSC).
However, some IMS/IMB will decode multichannel PCM on their HDMI input and pass through to it's AES/EBU output. A couple of sites I work on use that scheme with their ICMPs.

I know a few older Bluray players that are actually able to transcode Dolby AC3 to dts and vice versa (S/P-DIF/TOSLINK). These could solve some issues, but, this doesn't work for the TrueHD/Masteraudio varieties. And it's a pretty rare feature as well.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-07-2019, 07:58 PM:
 
The problem with the ICMP (and I'm sure other HDMI on the IMB/IMS is that DCPs put BSl and BSr on channels 11/12 and consumer puts them on 7//8). That gets you into channel mapping, which, sooner or later, gets you some dude talking out of the rear speakers.

I want the cinema people to treat HDMI for what it is...consumer and cater to it that way. Handle the channel assignments and level differences (cinema drops the surrounds by 3dB due to a legacy that no longer applies, while consumer does not) and deal with the DTS and Dolby decoding, even if it isn't the top-flight version of either...make it so it JUST WORKS.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-08-2019, 10:13 AM:
 
Which is why the choice of BD player (or other alternative content playout device, e.g. Direct TV box or whatever) is important in a system that has to play both DCI and alternative content reliably, and with as little technical knowledge as possible required from the end user.

Ideally, a player is needed that enables the installer to force the HDMI output to uncompressed LPCM, and prevent the operator from accidentally changing it back to a compressed, proprietary format, most likely by using the GUI menus on the disc itself. These vary: on some, if you select LPCM output in the setup, it will output LPCM until such time as you switch to a compressed format using a disc's menu. On others, it will stay on LPCM until the system setup is changed again.

One of the many reasons why Oppos were so popular with installers who had to integrate BD/DVD playback capability with a DCI setup is because the force to LPCM option for the HDMI audio output was a set-and-forget idiotproofing measure. On many cheaper consumer players, it isn't, and I've come across some on which this setting won't even survive a cold reboot of the player.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-08-2019, 11:02 AM:
 
Choosing a BD player is a losing battle. They are going to be short lived, like all consumer pieces. So if you find one you like, next year it could be gone. It also doesn't address the channel location issue between consumer and cinema.

Put the responsibility where it belongs, on the cinema equipment and then you don't have to be as fussy on the consumer equipment end.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-08-2019, 11:42 AM:
 
I agree with you in principle, but in practice that means that either you have to use an external decoder or DAC, or that your choice of cinema audio processor is limited to the AP20/25 or Q-Sys with a DCIO-H, if it is desired that any widely used consumer compressed HDMI audio format should play through a cinema system without the end user ever needing to make any configuration changes, either to the player or the audio processor.

While the need to design and install audio systems that can handle both cinema and consumer digital audio formats, and be operated by an end user with only consumer level technical knowledge, is a niche market, it is a big enough one (for us, at any rate) that we need to worry about it.
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-08-2019, 01:33 PM:
 
The Cambridge Audio CXUHD is essentially the same player as the UDP-203 and is, as of now, still officially not discontinued. It's much more expensive than the Oppo though, and lead-times can be horrendous.

It's no guarantee the device will be around tomorrow, obviously...

For us, the most fool-proof way of dealing with Blu-Ray has been ripping the content, putting it through DCP-o-Matic and play it as a DCP. It's actually a service you can charge for...

Obviously, this needs quite some preparation time and knowledge about the process. On the upside: The playback part is pretty much fool-proof.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-08-2019, 02:02 PM:
 
I agree completely and utterly that DCP-izing files, DVDs and BDs is the most end user-proof way to present them in a cinema. However, doing that requires an investment in hardware, software, and some technical knowledge. In some jurisdictions (including in the United States, where, per the DMCA, the act of defeating a copy protection system is a federal offense, even if you have the permission of the copyright owner to do so to their material), doing so is also illegal. OK, I have never even heard of one instance of that law actually being enforced in cases where no actual copyright violation took place, but it's still a consideration.

If it's a factory-pressed disc, DCP-o-Matic alone won't do it - you need ripping software that will deal with the copy protection on the source disc (which, due to legal considerations mentioned above, might not be that easy to get hold of), and the ability to create distribution media that a DCP server can ingest from.

An end user who does not want to get involved in all of this has the option of hiring a third party to make the DCP, and in the case of a theater that only wants to play a feature from an alternative content source, say, once or twice a year, that option is viable. But for venues that play lots of it, the cost and lead time considerations are nontrivial. In my last theater job we did lots of festivals and one-off shows from such sources. I wanted to DCP-ize as many of these as possible, for exactly the reasons you give; but on some occasions there wasn't the lead time and/or the money to pay for the staff hours to do the DCP-izing. So we had to play the shows from discs, files residing on Macbooks, etc. etc. For that reason, a need for reliable, end user-proof integration of alternative content and DCI playback will, IMHO, exist for the foreseeable future.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-08-2019, 03:02 PM:
 
What are we talking about on the DCinema end? Dolby (who does Dolby...only) GDC, Barco and QSC (CMS5000). I don't know if Christie is still going with their IMB S3 or not, the IMB S2 just go discontinued. And even if the S3 is going forward, the HDMI 2.0 port will be in their accessory slot so do it there.

Just deal with whatever comes down the pipe in some fashion.

And yes, ripping to DCP is much preferred but Leo detailed all of the pitfalls there (time and legal ramifications).

As for cinema processors...we are starting to whittle that down quite a bit. Dolby (just does Dolby), QSC (can do everything on the JSD60, DPMxxx-H and QSYS), Datasat (can do everything).
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-08-2019, 06:11 PM:
 
Yep, thanks to the DMCA, making a copy of a DVD or Blu-Ray is a federal crime. Even if I would put ROT13 "encryption" on a file as a way of copy protection and you would "hack" it, you could go to prison for it. (It actually happened...)

Well, thanks to your current president, here in Europe we're still allowed to make as many backup copies we want from the content we actually own.

There are a few exemptions in the law though (if I remember correctly, they need to be reviewed and renewed every 10 years or so), if you're doing it for educational purposes, you can still legally rip it. Even for archival purposes, it should be legal. So, the easiest way for any cinema would be to either become a school or a film archive.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-09-2019, 03:13 PM:
 
I did forget to mention Trinnov's Ovation in the Cinema Processor department...they can decode Dolby (via paid license) but not DTS.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-09-2019, 06:02 PM:
 
Again, the bitstream-to-LPCM only works if your processor can do HDMI (or your IMB/IMS feeds through HDMI audio to it's AES outputs). Most CPs with HDMI capability will decode at least one of the necessary formats anyway. There are so many installations with e.g. a CP750 where only TOSLINK/S/P-DIF is possible, thus no multichannel PCM.

Another benefit of converting with e.g. DCP-o-matic is that you can shift subtitles into the visible display area. On most DVDs or Blurays in flat or scope format, subtitles are shown within the letterbox bars, which are usually masked out on 'proper' cinema screens. There are some few players able to relocate subtitles into the visible image area, but all in all, its fiddly, and e.g. on the Panasonic we use, it's not a sticky setting. So it's useless for ordinary staff to try, they simply get lost.

It's hard to believe there was not enough market for OPPO...

I have a couple of features converted that we show regularly, and showing them in proper scope, with the subtitles, audio levels, etc. adjusted makes it much easier. Also we do not have to care for player or disc menu becoming visible before or after the movie, automation, etc being useless for DVD/Bluray showings, etc.
We also quite frequently have a need to show subtitles in the same language as the disc audio for schools. These DCPs are not available, but usually DVDs and Blurays offer this.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-09-2019, 07:53 PM:
 
I strongly suspect that Oppo saw the Blu-ray sales trend and decided that as it was heading towards zero, and got out while they could sell their inventory to zero.

It isn't that there is NO market but it is a relatively small one and getting smaller. They were considered pricey by most still buying hardware though for what they did, they were an excellent value, in my opinion. Remember too, that market remains cut up quite a few ways so nobody is making a killing at it.
 

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Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 02-10-2019, 06:47 AM:
 
Talking about audio only, if you are looking for 5.1 or 7.1 DCP only then any of the processors / IMBs on the market will give you pretty much the same result - Dolby CP750, 850, IMS3000 - Datasat Ap20/25, Trinnov (arguably better alignment ?) QSC or the USL JSD60 or 100.
But the growth in the industry seems to be in smaller, more flexible venues running alternative content and event screenings. Sadly the current processors from Dolby are a step down from past offerings, with the CP850 offering no 5.1 input (a real pain for mixed use venues) and the IMS3000 unwilling to talk to the "house" non-sync or mic. Datasat has 4 HDMIs, 2 LtRt inputs, mics and 5.1 audio and even the more basic JSD60 has half of these options. Well done Trinnov for listening to your customers and adding HDMI. In my book, you still cant go past a CP200, a pile of diodes and a soldering iron
For an average cinema these days you cant go past a factory IMB (Alchemys are great) and a JSD60, CP750, Datasat Ap25 or Trinnov (listed in rough price order) depending on budget and features you need.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-10-2019, 12:00 PM:
 
The JSD60 remains a crippled piece in that it can't do 7.1 and HI/VI without external assistance. It also put the pro logic decoder on pair-4 instead of pair-1, also a colossal blunder, in my opinion.

I hadn't heard that Trinnov added HDMI decoding to the Ovation. I just checked their website and it would appear that DTS decoding is now an option, which is great news.

I'd say that Peter's list omits the QSC's QSYS system. If you believe QSC, the DCP line remains the most popular cinema processor in the world...it doesn't decode Dolby or DTS but can take 2-channel PCM on its S/PDIF input (Which is wired backwards...pin is to ground, case is to +...go figure.

Christie has dropped out of the IMB market on their S2 projectors so Barco is the only one of the DLPs that has their own solution. The ICMP has its ups and downs. At the moment, it is our most problematic server per-capita. The IMS2000, oddly enough, is our most stable (No IMS3000s, at the moment nor SR1000s but both are about to change on that).
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-10-2019, 01:46 PM:
 

quote: Peter Hall

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But the growth in the industry seems to be in smaller, more flexible venues running alternative content and event screenings.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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If it's a factory-pressed disc, DCP-o-Matic alone won't do it - you need ripping software that will deal with the copy protection on the source disc (which, due to legal considerations mentioned above, might not be that easy to get hold of), and the ability to create distribution media that a DCP server can ingest from.

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For what it's worth, the creation of distribution media is on the roadmap for DCP-o-matic. Ripping of disks is definitely not
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-11-2019, 06:36 AM:
 
Marcel,

Network redundancy is already part of QSYS (dual Network NICs and dual network switches. In fact, one can unplug any network switch and there will be zero transfer time as both are transmitting all of the time so if packets aren't getting to where they are supposed to on one network, they'll be there on the other.

So single point of failure is very minimized.
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-11-2019, 08:18 AM:
 
Steve,

I know, but that's no guarantee for glory. In the end, both of your switches will be part of the same network.

The following is a real deal scenario, it didn't involve QSys, neither a cinema, but still brought the network down:

Customer had two "core switches", his core infrastructure, running some VMWare stuff was neatly hooked up to both. So, every server, two uplinks, auto-failover correctly configured. Even everything was on two separate power feeds, connected to two seperate UPSes. Stuff that did only have one PSU was connected to STS.

Yet, one day, one of his expensive Dell/Force10 core switches decides to crap out. The so-called TCAM in the switch went bonkers (seemingly a common issue with the model) and the switch starts to put on bogus broadcast messages all over the network.

The entire network went down, because of the junk messages that were sent around, most likely at 10GE speeds or more.

When you connected to either of the core switches, they didn't report anything out of the ordinary, since the management engine was decoupled from the forwarding engine on those switches and the management engine had no clue that there was something wrong with one of those two switches.

This same situation can happen in a redundant switch setup featuring two core switches. Even if you have all "access switches" hooked up to both core switches, there will be no automatic failover, since the network is filled up to its brim with bogus broadcast traffic.

Many of the client devices you plugged into the network, failed instantly with high loads, because of the enormous load of broadcast traffic.

So, where do you start debugging this? Your core switches seem to be fine, so you think some of your access switches is putting bogus info on the network. Maybe spanning tree failed on one of them? So you start to reboot them one by one.

Depending on how big your network is, this takes quite some time. Many of those switches aren't the fastest "booters" on the planet. But after you've rebooted all of them, you notice no improvement. The network is still crapping out.

At last you arrive at the core switches, which again, pretend to operate fine according to their management engine. Then you reboot the culprit and everything starts to recover... By then, you're easily more than an hour in.

This is one of the many failures I've experienced in otherwise "redundant networks". It's not easy to see if the network "lives" or if it's dead. It may be easy to detect if a port is up or not, but that's no guarantee there is also connectivity to the rest of the network.

A network loop, somebody plugging in something into your network now claiming to be the new STP root bridge or some stupid vendor bug can all cause your network to come crashing down, even if you've got two of everything.

Depending on the quality of the switches, the monitoring and your knowledge of the equipment and the situation, a decent network SNAFU can be more easily recognized, but it will still take some time to fix.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-11-2019, 08:19 AM:
 

quote:

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If the primary CORE fails in a manner that the redundant core sees and takes over, you still have dumped sound on all 10-screens for at least 15-seconds until the redundant core is running the show and the amps/ I/O stuff are responding to the redundant core. 15-second is "forever" when something happens and a manager could be faced with an entire complex of readmits!

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quote: Carsten Kurz

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Marcel - unreliable equipment is not a specific risc for cinemas only, and mission-critical IT infrastructure is employed by many businesses.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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Whereas the two QLANs are air-gapped islands and the switches are specifically configured for moving the audio between core and endpoints and whereas the QSYS system will flag any issue getting audio from here to there and whereas the number of "approved" switches are decreasing (QSC is now in the market of supplying an OEM). The odds of having such switch issues is on the order of having such issues on the projection network where if the network fails, so does the security between server/projector.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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QSC is definitely confident in their system enough to say a single core to run a complex is safe. They already are running stadiums, airports and such things.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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The worst that could happen is that you need to start the shows in every theater manually. If your automation is on the network, maybe you need to dim your lights manually and set your masking manually.

Do you have a bunch of CP650s dying because of network flooding? Well, disconnect them from the network and select the format and volume manually.

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quote: Pete Naples

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QSYS may be the most popular in the US, but not here in the UK. They have one dealer so unless the site happens to be a customer of that dealer, they won't use it.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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So, you keep a strict, let's say "pseudo-galvanic" separation between the "primary" and "secondary" Q-LAN?

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quote: Steve Guttag

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Yes, of course. They are on different networks, there are no cables attaching to either QLAN-A or QLAN-B that are not audio devices on those QLANs.

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If you can maintain that kind of isolation, and the failover checking of QSC is actually any good (I haven't needed it yet), then I guess the thing should be considered good enough for anything non-life-threatening.

quote: Steve Guttag

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With one core running many/all screens, you save money on buying excessive processing as one CORE can handle a lot of channels moving about. You get the sound quality/processing of a full DSP system but reduce your per-screen cost down to a DCIO (less than a cinema processor) and some form of user interface, which can be a WEB-GUI (starting in the next release...current release is pre-beta web-uci) or a fancy touchpanel. Even without the WEB-UCI QSC has a free PC program called UCI-Viewer so the manger can open up and control any theatre from their office computer.

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quote: Pete Naples

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I've never seen a DCP processor outside of a trade show booth.

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quote: Thomas Vlachogiannis

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Dear all in the following days I have to order one digital cinema server and one dolby cp750.

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