Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Harkins Theaters

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Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 05-19-2019, 01:02 AM:

Hi all, I just wanted to get some info on what people think of Harkins Theaters.

I was unaware that this chain had come to Southern CA. A coworker just went to see John Wick: Chapter 3 at a 2 year old Harkins in Cerritos CA and he loved his experience. I'm particularly interested in their giant screen equipped with Dolby Atmos and love how that screen (according to pictures) is common height? Just to make sure, Common Height is a scope screen correct? I tend to get Common Height and Common Width mixed up. Anyway, I saw pictures of their smaller screens and those also seem to be Common Height scope.

So I was wondering if this chain is better at presenting movies than the others? Do they tend to play movies near or at reference level? Have they embraced Laser Projectors?

I did notice a review by a woman who claimed to work in hearing healthcare and saw Shazam at Cerritos in that large screen I mentioned. She said the levels were painfully loud. She also claimed to take SPL levels while in the theater which I found a little strange. She complained twice and said they never lowered the volume. I'm not sure if I believe her story.

Any thoughts?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-19-2019, 02:48 PM:

Harkins' theater locations can be pretty decent. Like all theater chains, the quality can vary from one location to the next depending on how well the management and staff there stay on top of things.

All the Cine Capri big screen theaters have large, common height screens. They even have curtains (and masking too). According to Harkins' web site the Cine Capri screens now have laser projectors. The Cine 1 theaters are similar to the Cine Capri houses, but they're not quite as big and they have recliner seats. Harkins doesn't mention laser projection for the Cine 1 theaters. All the Cine Capri and Cine 1 houses have Dolby Atmos sound systems.

I've visited Harkins' Oklahoma City location a number of times. The Cine Capi house has a pretty decent Atmos-equipped sound system. I've been more impressed with object based surround sound mixes in that theater than I have an number of other Atmos-equipped theaters. My only complaint is they don't have the audio cranked as loud as I think it should be. But I pretty much have that same complaint about commercial theaters across the board these days. So many theaters turn down sound systems to home TV speakers volume levels, largely due to complaints. I still think stadium seating and the much taller ceilings have something to do with weakening audio (particularly sub-bass).

Harkins doesn't charge a big premium to watch movies on the Cine Capri screen (I think it's still a $1 difference from the standard houses). I don't know the premium pricing levels for Cine 1.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-19-2019, 10:08 PM:

They opened a new build theater in Redlands, CA, about two years ago, and it has consistently offered an excellent customer experience compared to most mainstream, cookie cutter 'plexes. My wife and I usually go see a movie there every 1-2 months. The auditoria are always clean and comfortable, the front-of-house areas are well maintained, the staff are very helpful and friendly, there is never any problem finding somewhere to park, pix is sharp, bright and crisply masked, and the sound is well tuned and set to a good level.

They have maintained this quality over two years or so now, so this clearly isn't the "new car smell" effect - Harkins obviously takes maintenance and quality control very seriously.

Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 05-19-2019, 10:55 PM:

Thank you both for responding. I'm now even more curious about Harkins. Leo it looks like that Harkins near you also has a Cine 1 screen. I'm happy to hear it's enjoyable.

Bobby, I completely share your frustration with the sound levels and it ruins my movie going experience.

The other day I saw Avengers at a Cinemark XD (Extreme Digital) screen and I just had to contact them. I let them know there was nothing extreme about what I experienced. That was the 3rd time in about four years I saw a movie in XD. The picture was mediocre and the volume was too low each time I've gone. As you mentioned, this occurs with other chains as well. So the question is, what can one do to make sure the volume is turned up before entering a theater? Would I be one of those annoying patrons if I asked the manager on duty to ensure proper levels were set before showtime?

Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 05-20-2019, 10:23 AM:

I'm a big fan of Harkins also. I frequent the Cine Capri auditorium at Harkins Northfield in Colorado, and I've had consistently good experiences there. (And after semi-consistently negative experiences at the other big chains in my area, AMC and Regal, I've pretty much stopped visiting those.) Audio-wise, the volume has always been satisfactory and the surround is immersive. My only complaint is that the bass feels a little muddy, but I'm being picky. The image is always sharp and bright.

Harkins runs a great Tuesday Night Classics series, and they have started showing some of them on the big Cine Capri & Cine1 screens. I've had fun introducing my kids to some of my favorite films through this program. I only wish there were more showings, because we often have conflicts.

FWIW, they are very responsive on Twitter. For example, when several chains announced they were showing Saving Private Ryan this summer to commemorate the 75th anniversary of D-Day, I suggested @HarkinsTheatres should do the same thing. They replied that it wasn't in their plan, but would look into it. Less than a month later, it was added to the lineup. (Sadly, on a day where I have a conflict.)

My biggest gripe about Harkins is that they don't have any film capabilities, at least in Colorado. The Cine Capri screen would be a great place to see an the occasional 70MM showing (New Tarantino, Nolan releases, classics, etc.).

quote: Bobby Henderson
The Cine 1 theaters are similar to the Cine Capri houses, but they're not quite as big.

There appear to be two sizes for the Cine 1 auditoriums, "regular" (Chandler & Flagstaff), and "XL" (Mountain Grove, Cerritos, & Estrella Falls). The XL versions look comparable the Cine Capris, at least based on the online seating charts. Which one(s) have you been to, Bobby?

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 05-20-2019, 03:33 PM:

First of all:
I don't actually go to the movies, since the movies usually come to ME.

However, I spend several weeks in the Phoenix, AZ area several
times a year and am sometimes invited to see a show with the
people I'm visiting, and, not wanting to offend my hosts, I go
along with them, usually to see something I've run months before.

That being said- - the theaters I've wound up at have more often
than not been run by HARKINS, and I must say that despite my
distaste for multiplexes, I've been very impressed by their operation.
Their staff seems well trained & attentive in their duties, and I've
always admired their ability to keep their lobbies, auditoriums, and
especially the rest rooms, quite clean, even on busy weekend nights.

I can't ever remember being dissatisfied with the presentation of any
shows I've seen at Harkins. Picture was clear & bright, and sound was
good. Last year I chatted up one of the staff who agreed to let me take
a look at their booth operations after the show, but I didn't get his name
and I couldn't find him when I went looking later. Mabybe next time.

Overall, they seem to 'run a tight ship' and do a good job of it.

> I was introduced to Dan Harkins at a party several years ago.
Seemed like a nice guy during the few minutes I had to chat with him.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-20-2019, 06:36 PM:

quote: Aron Toplitsky
So the question is, what can one do to make sure the volume is turned up before entering a theater? Would I be one of those annoying patrons if I asked the manager on duty to ensure proper levels were set before showtime?

I think the solution is pretty complicated, unfortunately.

Obviously I'm not an expert on how commercial theater sound systems should be configured. Nevertheless I feel like more than a few corners get cut when a new multiplex theater is first built. The bean counters make some "this is good enough" choices when budgeting the types of speakers, amps, etc that go into the sound system. If a theater's sound system is under-powered for a given room it's obviously going to struggle to still sound good when turned up to reference levels. Audience members get annoyed or fatigued by it and complain. It seems to me a lesser-configured theater sound system will be more prone to suffer problems like blown speakers. So another cost-cutting solution is to turn the sound down to a lower level to save on maintenance costs.

I don't think many commercial theater sound systems are re-tuned very often, if at all, after a theater opens. The EQ settings are more important than overall volume levels. I love movies in theaters to be loud, but not flat across the frequency spectrum. A theater's sound system can peak sub-bass audio at 120db and not damage anyone's hearing. Lower mid range audio can be plenty loud too without it being painful. Obviously high frequency bands need to max out at considerably lower volume levels. It seems like there's a certain art to getting all the levels adjusted so the audio sounds rich, crisp and not shrill yet have enough dynamics to punch you in the chest. But the theater's sound system has to be configured well enough to make that possible. And the theater's staff or chain technicians have to bother to maintain it.

Overall Harkins seems to take some pride in showing off their sound systems. When the OKC Cine Capri was showing film they would play one of several Dolby Digital trailers along with their Cine Capri snipe. During the digital era it's one of the few places I've seen the Dolby Surround 7.1 snipe play. The OKC location usually plays the Dolby Atmos "unfold" trailer before shows. That snipe does a pretty good job showing off the 3D resolution of the sound system.

quote: Geoff Jones
There appear to be two sizes for the Cine 1 auditoriums, "regular" (Chandler & Flagstaff), and "XL" (Mountain Grove, Cerritos, & Estrella Falls). The XL versions look comparable the Cine Capris, at least based on the online seating charts. Which one(s) have you been to, Bobby?

I haven't been to any of the Cine 1 locations. I heard a rumor Harkins is going to build a 2nd Oklahoma City location up in Edmond, but then that goes along with rumors of Alamo Drafthouse building up there. But that would probably be an occasion where I could check out a Cine 1 screen (if they include a Cine 1 screen in a new Harkins build there).

I've been to the Cine Capri in Oklahoma City a bunch of times, dating back to when it was a film-based theater. I remember seeing a Kinoton projector in the booth. I've been to the Cine Capri in Denver a couple times. Both of those Cine Capri houses appear identical in size, they're both quite a bit larger than average. It would have been great if those theaters had 70mm-capable film projectors when they were first built. The Dallas-Fort Worth suburb of Southlake has a Cine Capri screen. That one is not nearly as big as the OKC & Denver houses.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-20-2019, 07:48 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't think many commercial theater sound systems are re-tuned very often, if at all, after a theater opens.

It's usually a more-or-less yearly thing, from what I've seen. Not so much because anything has changed, but because it is a simple way to identify problems with the sound system. If there are blown drivers, missing subs, etc., a B-chain will reveal those problems. It should definitely be done if something about the auditorium (new drapes, seats, etc.) changes.

And, no, no one plays movies at a fader setting of "7," since the customer complaints would be a problem. 5.5-6.5 is much more common. With a good room and sound system, one can go higher without generating complaints.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-20-2019, 10:25 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
With a good room and sound system, one can go higher without generating complaints.

I'm not so sure about that...it's also a matter of personal taste for people, especially older people. I love a good, loud, booming soundtrack, but I also like the dialogue to sound "natural," not like it's coming out of a rock concert stage.

Our B-chain gets tuned every time our tech visits, and I like to think we have a pretty good 5.1 system, and we get many compliments on our sound, but "7" is most of the time just unnaturally loud in the dialogue. It still sounds good, in fact it's great, but it's just overly loud. So, most movies we play between 5 and 6 somewhere.

A few years ago I saw a film at the Dolby screening room, which probably has one of the finest sound systems in existence, and I thought THAT was too loud. It was great-sounding, but I thought it was too damn loud. I was happy when it was over, in fact.

If it's true that "nobody" is playing movies at the reference level then maybe the reference level needs to change. Maybe 6 should be the new 7.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 05-21-2019, 05:27 AM:

I couldn't possibly disagree more.

I think all movies should be played at 7, and if patrons find it too loud, complain to the studios.

That's why my favorite exhibition experience of all time was when I got to see a movie at the Paramount Studios screening room.

Volume at 7 and perfect projection quality.

The filmmakers are mixing for that volume, and I run all films from Blu-ray in my home at 0 db on my home surround processor as I have my speakers calibrated to the proper levels.

Occasionally it's way too loud in my opinion, but that's the volume level the filmmakers wanted me to listen at, so I do.

Theaters turning down the volume is a big reason I don't go to theaters that often anymore - if they're not going to provide the intended experience, I'll wait and give up the bigger picture for proper sound levels at home.

I do however patronize the few theaters I do find that seem to play movies at 7 as intended.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-21-2019, 07:17 AM:

I agree that, to a point, cinemas have a responsibility to show movies in the way that the film-makers intended for them to be shown.

Unfortunately, the get paid by the ticket-buying public. If the ticket-buying public (generally) thinks that the sound is too loud, it is in the interest of the cinema to turn it down to a more reasonable level.

Part of the problem is with trailers and commercials. These are invariably mixed too loud, and, inexplicably, many cinemas still do not have the means (automation or a human) to re-set the volume for the feature.

I don't disagree that many cinemas play their features at a too-low fader setting, but I also don't believe that there are very many films that can be played at "7" without sounding too loud in most venues.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-21-2019, 07:57 AM:

"7" is a subjective level that is dependent on MANY factors that a mere SPL meter can't resolve. I've found that the better the system (lower distortion) the higher the volume level can be. That is, if I calibrate two systems using the same test equipment to "85dBc" at -20dBFS, the better system has a better chance of being deemed acceptable at "7" than the inferior system.

At the studios, where cost isn't nearly the same object it is in a commercial cinema, they are going to tend to have better systems and set up with better equipment and listened/judged by people that can hear most all of the subtleties.

Things like acoustics (most theatres don't go beyond putting some fiberglass on the walls behind the drapes...IF THAT, baffle walls (I thought that was just for THX...NO), high quality speakers (3-ways are better than 2-ways? Often not). The better your acoustics, the better your equipment, the higher the level you can play without complaints.

Here is another kicker. If you have a harsh sound system, which will drive the volume down...it will cause the surrounds to appear even quieter. Likely, it wasn't the surrounds that caused the complaints but when you drop your volume by 10dB to overcome a mediocre system, you dropped EVERYTHING by 10dB.

That said, I find most movies are mixed too loud (not all). I think some people at the mixing desk are suffering from over-exposure to high volumes and their ears are fatigued to the point that they are raising the levels to compensate and those of us that may only hear the movie once and are back in the world just get assaulted by the crazy high levels.

Listen to a movie mixed by Larry Blake (many Steven Soderbergh movies like the Oceans series). You can play any of those at "7" on a reasonable system and not fatigue due to the sound.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-21-2019, 10:40 AM:

quote: Jeff Jones
Harkins runs a great Tuesday Night Classics series, and they have started showing some of them on the big Cine Capri & Cine1 screens.

Interesting - my wife and I go to a lot of those at Redlands, and they are almost always in one of the smaller screens, and sold out. You have to book in advance for them, to be sure of getting in. I'm guessing that they aren't in a larger house because the booking contracts for bigger, first run titles doesn't leave those houses open, but I'm sure that they could expand their classics programming and have a market for it, at that location, at any rate.

Another aspect of their presentation quality is that all those classics shows I've been to are decent studio DCPs of proper remastering or restoration jobs - no BS with 'scope DVDs played letterboxed, as some other chains have done.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-21-2019, 10:41 AM:

There was a study done a few years ago that noticed that in mixing stages that the faders during the course of the day constantly were going up due to hearing fatigue

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-21-2019, 12:36 PM:

quote: William Kucharski
I think all movies should be played at 7, and if patrons find it too loud, complain to the studios.

The only way all movies can be played with the fader at 7 is if the sound system is completely re-tuned each time a different movie plays in that auditorium. As far as I can tell no commercial theater anywhere does that. And they're sure not going to do that if a specific movie is going to play in the theater's best house for only 1 or 2 weeks.

IIRC, Brad Miller said he and other staff at Dallas' GCC Northpark 1-2 theater re-tuned the B-chain specifically for each movie that played there. But this was back during a period where a specific movie could play there for at least a few weeks, if not months. Today, if you want to watch a new movie on a premium screen (IMAX, Dolby Cinema @ AMC or even the Cine Capri theaters we're talking about in this thread) you usually have to catch the movie during its opening weekend. A different movie will usually take over the next Friday (or maybe even earlier).

As others have stated different movies can have differnt levels of loudness and even EQ settings. Back in the 1990's I remember the early DTS mixes from MGM/UA movies being significantly louder and brighter than average. I wondered if it was a studio thing. A test screening I watched of Goldeneye here in Lawton at our then-new Carmike 8 theater was absolutely excruciating during the opening action sequence. This was in a THX house with the fader on the Dolby CP-65 set at 6.5. We had to turn it down to 5.5 for the mix not to be painful. The same house had been playing Seven previously, which sounded awesome. But that was only after they fixed the sound system due to DTS playback not being set up properly; the damned sub-bass audio was going into the surrounds, making the drivers rattle the hell out of the speaker grilles. The theater didn't know about the problem due to not getting any DTS discs with any prints the first few months after it opened.

quote: Scott Norwood
Unfortunately, the get paid by the ticket-buying public. If the ticket-buying public (generally) thinks that the sound is too loud, it is in the interest of the cinema to turn it down to a more reasonable level.

This is why I think it's very critical for a commercial theater not to go on the cheap with its sound system. This isn't a demand for them to install something like Atmos (which costs a shit-ton if you want to configure at Atmos setup correctly). They should set the opening bar at just doing 5.1 surround RIGHT. Better sound system hardware and better room acoustics will allow for more dynamic audio settings without generating nearly as many noise complaints. For instance, the audio at the GCC Northpark 1-2 theater could be very startling with its dynamics, but I never thought the sound was painfully loud. I know THX didn't have a perfect record on managing things, but I still miss it for it trying to at least set some kind of standard. Today there really isn't any standard, at least not an enforceable one. The theater chains call their own shots on it and dollars and "good enough" standards do the deciding on how good something can be.

Now some customers just don't want the audio being dynamic at all. They do want it turned down to low TV speakers volume no matter what. They don't like a sound mix to be dramatic, much less surprisingly dynamic. The problem is if the loudest or most dynamic parts of the movie's sound mix have zero punch to them the "normal" sounding elements like dialog get muffled down to nothing. I've seen plenty of movies where actors are either mumbling their dialog or almost whispering it. That's not bad in a properly tuned and set-up auditorium. If the fader is turned down to TV speakers volume you might as well throw up some subtitles!

quote: Scott Norwood
Part of the problem is with trailers and commercials. These are invariably mixed too loud, and, inexplicably, many cinemas still do not have the means (automation or a human) to re-set the volume for the feature.

Even in the d-cinema age the commercials and trailers are often mixed louder than the feature. Very few theaters bother to adjust for that in their automation controls (if their setups even make that possible). That leads to movies being played at even lower volume levels.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-21-2019, 12:45 PM:

quote: William Kucharski
Occasionally it's way too loud in my opinion, but that's the volume level the filmmakers wanted me to listen at, so I do.

The filmmakers want it to be seen in a theater, so if you want the intended experience, you shouldn't be watching it at home at all. (Either one is going to be a compromise, apparently!)

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-21-2019, 12:55 PM:

I think some of the "filmmakers" and sound mixers have a philosophy way out of touch with paying movie theater customers. They want things as "real" as possible. They want a sound element like a gun shot to be as painfully loud as it is in real life. The trouble is there must be practical limits to that. I think most audience members like a sound mix that is fun and dynamic. I really love it if a theater's sound system has sub-bass powerful enough to punch the air in my chest and do so without sounding muddy and sloppy. No one is going to like high frequency elements (such as the upper registers of a gun shot) played at unreasonably high decibel levels. When I go to a pistol range I bring along my goofy-looking blue ear muffs. I'm not going to be a "purist" and stupidly damage my hearing by keeping it real.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-21-2019, 12:59 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
This is why I think it's very critical for a commercial theater not to go on the cheap with its sound system.

Agreed. But is anyone actually doing that now? To the extent that I have seen newly built or refurbished cinemas in the last few years, all have had top-quality sound equipment. If D-cinema has done anything good for the industry, it has pretty much succeeded at bringing good sound systems to pretty much every venue, at least from what I have seen.

If there are weak points with a particular system, they are more likely to be with the quality of the installation/maintenance or the room acoustics, not the equipment that is in place.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-21-2019, 04:41 PM:

I have rarely seen "top quality" sound equipment. Most of the 3-way speaker systems I've seen are near garbage in acoustical performance.

Most of the speaker manufacturers that have their well-designed speaker and then there are those that have been "value engineered" to look sort of like the good one but with notably inferior components.

Then there are those speakers designed to "fit." Exhibitors don't want to give up real estate behind the screen and put in the thin speakers that do not sound as good as the full sized ones. Do they really think that the physics changes because they wanted a shallower speaker that the horn has any chance of controlling the sound?

How about baffle walls...what percentage of theatres do you think put them in?

How about insulation above the ceiling? Very few.

What is the RT60 of the typical cinema?

Honestly, I'd take an Altec speaker of yore (A5 or A4) in a good acoustic room over most of the speakers coming out today. A JBL4675 beats most of the speakers coming out today.

There ARE good speakers out there today but they are not on the "thrift" side of the scale and if one is on a budget, go 2-way before considering an econo-3-way...seriously. It is FAR, FAR easier to make a good 2-way than a good 3-way (or 4-way).

Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 05-21-2019, 08:34 PM:

According to their Theater Openings page, Harkins is opening two more theaters in the Denver area in the next couple of years, one in Northglenn and one in Aurora (less than 8 miles from their current Northfield location).

They also have a new theater coming in metro Phoenix (Laveen).

All three will have 12 screens.

The Laveen theater will have a "Premium large format Cine1 Auditorium" which I assume must be one of the "XL" versions, while the Colorado theaters will each have a Cine 1 Auditorium. Boo.

Sadly, all of three Cine1/CineCapri screens in Colorado will probably show the same title at the same time.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 05-22-2019, 06:06 AM:

quote:
The filmmakers want it to be seen in a theater, so if you want the intended experience, you shouldn't be watching it at home at all. (Either one is going to be a compromise, apparently!)

Sadly, yes - big screen, bad sound or smaller screen, good sound.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-22-2019, 06:09 AM:

I find those Harkins theater types to be rather confusing. I understand that Cine Capri is meant to replicate the feeling of the original Cine Capri theater. Then, you got Cine 1, which looks awfully close to the Cine Capri concept. Is Cine 1 a "lesser" version of Cine Capri or what exactly are the differences? And then, are there gradations in the Cine 1 concept? Like "Standard" Cine 1 and "PLF" Cine 1?

quote:
The filmmakers want it to be seen in a theater, so if you want the intended experience, you shouldn't be watching it at home at all. (Either one is going to be a compromise, apparently!)

A lot of filmmakers seem to be out of touch with how their product is going to be consumed in the end.

There is definitely some kind of "loudness war" in the movie industry, although it doesn't affect all mixes equally. Maybe it's primarily affected by the ego of the director or sound mixer... or a combination of them.

No two rooms in this world sound exactly the same, that's even true for mixing stages. There is so much involved in the way we hear sound, it's also, for a very large part a subjective matter.

Many of the "premium" concepts play on this subjective part. They sell "great sound" to the audience, while in the end, the only thing that's being achieved is that it's loud... Then again, tell the customer that it's great and that's why he paid a premium for it and many of them will actually believe it or they simply want to believe it.

What Steve said about quality equipment and higher volumes is true. If your equipment has sufficient headroom, low distortions and is correctly calibrated, you can play a lot of stuff a heck of a lot louder, before it's getting irritating or even painful.

Now, our screening room doesn't cut corners when it comes down to the quality of the sound equipment. Most stuff also has so much headroom, it would potentially blow your eardrums before we even got to the limitations. Distortion is very low and everything has been calibrated as far as it makes any engineering sense. So, this room comes pretty close to what the sound-mixer should've had in mind when he/she made the original mix.

We honestly try to play everything at 7.0, but there is a lot of stuff out there, that is mixed so hot, it seriously is bonkers to play it at such levels. Bonkers in a way that it could become a potential health hazard even, especially since many of those productions contain action scenes that never seem to end. Don't get me wrong, I like it "loud" or better: highly dynamic. An explosion should make an impact and a gunshot should sound sharp, but it shouldn't effectively hurt the people in the auditorium.

Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 05-22-2019, 09:49 AM:

I appreciate everyone's input. It's so interesting how many factors play a role in quality sound, which is most important for me.

As for Harkins, I'm happy to report the John Wick Chapter 3 showing in Cine 1 at Cerritos was much better than I expected. The screen size was amazing and sound was good and powerful. I would definitely go back. Out of curiosity I went to see the film again at a Dolby Cinema showing at my local AMC. In terms of sound it was slightly better, I just wish they would do away with vibrating seats, as for picture there was no comparison. The picture quality of Dolby was stunningly better.

Since this thread has been discussing theater levels, what kind of standard does Dolby Cinema set? I know they use Atmos, but what are the faders being played at? Do they usually install quality equipment? I've enjoyed every Dolby Cinema showing at my two local AMC theaters. The sound is always a good solid level with clean powerful bass, but again, those vibrating seats are a little annoying and creates an artifical quality in my opinion. I wish that could be controlled individually.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-22-2019, 01:11 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Is Cine 1 a "lesser" version of Cine Capri or what exactly are the differences? And then, are there gradations in the Cine 1 concept? Like "Standard" Cine 1 and "PLF" Cine 1?

The main difference with Cine 1 is recliners. It has them while the Cine Capri houses have traditional theater seats. The Cine Capri houses are bigger and apparently now have laser projection.

quote: Aron Toplitsky
Since this thread has been discussing theater levels, what kind of standard does Dolby Cinema set? I know they use Atmos, but what are the faders being played at? Do they usually install quality equipment?

I think loudness levels vary slightly from one location to the next. The few I've visited in Texas and Oklahoma have never seemed overly loud. Sub-bass is decent, but not "whoa" impressive. I don't know if that's 100% the fault of those specific theaters. I think both sound mixing teams and commercial theaters in general have toned down sub-bass levels compared to the bombastic days of the 1990's when digital sound was a new novelty.

For what it costs to visit a Dolby Cinema @ AMC theater, I sure hope they're installing top of the line equipment. I'm skeptical that's happening unfortunately. I think any theater that's charging upwards of $20 per ticket ought to be installing top of the line gear, have top of the line acoustic qualities in the room and keep things running top notch.

In Oklahoma City when I compare the Cine Capri screen in Bricktown to the Dolby Cinema screen at AMC's 24-plex at Quail Springs Mall the Cine Capri clearly has the better Atmos-capable system. The Cine Capri is a significantly larger auditorium and has 50 surround speakers visible (20 of them on the ceiling). It sounds like more of the speakers in the Cine Capri house are discretely amplified rendering points for 3D audio than the Dolby Cinema house. The one advantage the Dolby Cinema screen has is image quality, a pair of RGB laser projectors is usually going to project a better image than a single projector. I don't know if Harkins actually swapped out the single Xenon-based digital projector in OKC's Cine Capri for a new laser projector yet. I don't know what kind of laser projectors they're putting in the Cine Capri houses either. Maybe it's a conversion that's in progress. I did notice the two Cine Capri theaters in the Phoenix area have reserved seating while the 3 outside AZ do not.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 05-22-2019, 05:40 PM:

I really like the Harkins Northfield Cine Capri theater in Denver Co. I visit there quite a bit. Love the big curtain and big Scope screen. Atmos sound is large and dynamic sounding too. They also butter your popcorn for you as they fill it like everyone used to.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-22-2019, 06:06 PM:

I think the popcorn/butter policy is a staff-dependent thing. At the Patriot Cinemas theater here in Lawton the staff will fill a popcorn bucket halfway and let you butter it just the way you like at the popcorn station and then fill it up the rest of the way (and then you butter the top layer of popcorn).

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-22-2019, 07:23 PM:

quote: Aron Toplitsky
Since this thread has been discussing theater levels, what kind of standard does Dolby Cinema set? I know they use Atmos, but what are the faders being played at? Do they usually install quality equipment? I've enjoyed every Dolby Cinema showing at my two local AMC theaters. The sound is always a good solid level with clean powerful bass, but again, those vibrating seats are a little annoying and creates an artifical quality in my opinion. I wish that could be controlled individually.

I can't comment on the AMC Dolby Cinema setup, as those are essentially discount-versions of what Dolby Cinema should have been.

What I can tell you, is what went into the first prototype purposely built Dolby Cinema theater in Eindhoven, The Netherlands and that wasn't cheap by any means.

Dolby hadn't acquired SLS yet, so their amplifiers and speakers were based on Christie Vive Audio. My personal experience with Christie Vive is limited, but what they put in there was only the expensive stuff, including line-array based surrounds. They also didn't skimp on the amount of surrounds. They did build a proper baffle wall and put in 5 channels of front-stage speakers. There are not only sub woofers in the front of the room, but also distributed around the rest of the room. None of those speakers is visible, they're all hidden from sight. The amplifiers are three racks loaded with Christie CDA5 amps.

The only thing that sucks is: Common width screen with no movable masking...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-22-2019, 08:30 PM:

I don't know if the Dolby/AMC deal is Dolby Cinema Lite...I haven't heard that at all though I have no direct information or experience with them.

As for Dolby Cinema and Vive...I don't know if there was any real partnership there for any length of time. I know that for exactly one Atmos demonstration at CinemaCon they used the VIVE speakers and it turned me off from Atmos because I couldn't get out of the room fast enough. You could have played it on "3" and it would been offensive.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-23-2019, 12:20 AM:

I can't comment on the technology part for the Dolby Cinema @ AMC setup, but it is certainly a "Lite" setup if you consider the entirety of the setup.

The original Dolby Cinema concept was: Purpose-built theaters only. That also included a special room-geometry, a massive amount of sound-proofing (also, to keep the outside world out), special air-conditioning ducting (to keep the noise down), their Stealth-Fighter like paneling and aisle lightning designed not to reflect on the screen. The same was true for other, often very distracting features like emergency exit lightning, etc. Obviously, this kind of requirements cancels out most refurbishments, as it will be near impossible to find existing rooms that can be easily converted to such requirements.

Regarding Christie Vive itself: I have insufficient experience with the stuff to have an opinion on it. What I do know that they eventually did make it work for this one setup in Eindhoven. Even though they might have screwed it up by now, it still at least was the best-sounding Dolby Cinema setup I've encountered, but only after my second visit. To be fair, my first visit was during trail runs, where even the automation didn't work properly yet.

Dolby probably spent close to unlimited efforts to get the thing right, after all, this was their showpiece, which they used to sell the concept to other potential partners.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-23-2019, 12:47 AM:

I'm glad to hear that you found that the VIVE could be listened to. What I heard was so off-putting (and I mean PAINFUL), I really don't want to hear them again, if I can avoid it. There are plenty of good speakers out there that do a better job, in my opinion (e.g the QSC SC-424)

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-23-2019, 07:25 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I'm glad to hear that you found that the VIVE could be listened to. What I heard was so off-putting (and I mean PAINFUL), I really don't want to hear them again, if I can avoid it. There are plenty of good speakers out there that do a better job, in my opinion (e.g the QSC SC-424)

A lot of speakers really sound awful if the system they're part of is incorrectly balanced and/or calibrated or if they're driven by amps that cannot handle them correctly. I only know Christie Vive from trade shows and I was never convinced about their presentations, I also don't really know venues relying on them. I'm not sure why Dolby went with them for their initial Atmos rollout, but I guess it was a package deal, together with the Dolby Vision laser platform.

I'm not really convinced line arrays are the best solution for cinema sound systems, especially since rooms are seemingly getting smaller and not larger, but they certainly need different treatment than horn loaded speakers.

Like I said, the first time, during the initial trail runs, I was not really impressed by the system. It didn't sound awful, but not on par with a real high quality presentation. The sound was a bit harsh and despite the giant cluster of subs, the bass was underwhelming.

The second time, they seemingly did do their homework, because it really sounded great and I went there without high expectations, but still with an open mind.

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to write down what I'm writing down right now, but I do it anyway... I didn't sign an NDA, so, it should be fine, I guess... (Don't mind the black van stopping in front of the office...)

What they were using was a stack of LA5 and LS2 for their stage speakers, 5 in total.

In the front, they had a whole array of S215 subs, apparently all on their own dedicated Atmos output channel. There also were some of those mounted on the side walls and some in the back. I don't know what to think about those subs mounted to the sidewalls, but they were convinced about their usefulness.

Their surrounds were LA5S for the speakers on the wall and LA5C for the speakers on the ceiling.

There were two CP850s in the setup with extra analog breakouts and three racks worth of Christie amps, all of those who I've seen seemed to be CDA5s. As far as I could see, there was no further gear involved with both the A and B chain.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 05-26-2019, 08:20 PM:

Its amazing how a poor EQ/calibration can make even the best equipment sound offensive or uninspired. And the stadium seating isn't doing the audio any favors.