Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Upgrading from 5.1 to 7.1

This is topic Upgrading from 5.1 to 7.1 in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 06-01-2019, 06:20 AM:

Hello everybody!.
This summer we're planning to upgrade our little cinema theatre from 5.1 to 7.1
We actually have a QUBE QXPD server giving AES digital channels and 3 simple (dual) D/A converters. These converters feed 5.1 channels to our OLD DTS6AD processor. This processor only accepts 6 analog external channels.
I brought sometime ago a DTS XD10P processor 8 channel capable. The 2 extra channels (7&8) are labelled as CenterR and CenterL in the webUI, but I think there is no problem with this, because I'm planning to feed it with the QUBE 11&12 channels that usually carry the RearSurrL and RearSurrR (If I'm not wrong).

About the speakers, I will rewire and add two more speakers and an extra QSC USA900, but I have a doubt:
Our actual surround layout (RSurr and LSurr) include not only the side speakers but some back wall mounted R / L speakers. These REAR speakers now will be feeded with the RearSurrL and RearSurrR channels, but…
What's up with the 5.1 films? These REAR speakers will be un-used? In this case, 7.1 layout system will be worst than our actual layout.
In this case, as the QUBE Server doesn't have audio channels routing capabilities, maybe a good idea would be add an stereo audio selector in the new extra QSC amplifier to select between the REAR SURROUND signals and the SIDE SURROUND signals (from the link output in the SIDE SURROUND amplifier.
This way, I can feed the 5.1's surround signal to the back wall speakers when contents is 5.1.
I must slect it manually and of course this option will be chosen attending to the feature's encoded audio system, not to the trailers…

Any advice or any objections? [Smile]

Regards!!

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-01-2019, 07:19 AM:

A 7.1 capable sound processor will give you a 5.1 and a 7.1 preset. The 5.1 one will have a different routing inside: the side surround signal would be routed to the back and the overall surround level adjusted accordingly.

The DTS is an Ultra Stereo JSD-80 if not mistaken. I think it may be flexible enough to do what you want but it’s been a long time since I played with one of those.

Also if not mistaken the DTS comes with the AES board as standard so you should be able to wire it directly to the server.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-01-2019, 09:25 AM:

Edit: out of curiosity I went back to the XD10P setup software and I cannot really see a way to switch back to 5.1 unless you put something together yourself. The routing is not the end of the world, it's the level that concerns me - when back to 5.1 you are supposed to lower the output a bit as now your side surrounds are doing 82dBC but you are adding the back speakers which will raise the level a bit (2-3dB).

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 06-01-2019, 01:56 PM:

If you can get hold of the right person at QSC they may be able to help you. QSC now owns the USL line and I think there is an upgrade for the JSD-80 to do 7.1 but you need to talk to an old USL person at QSC that knows the JSD-80.

Harold who posts here often is an USL person and might know.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-01-2019, 03:49 PM:

Indeed it's on their ftp! I wasn't aware of that.

JSD80 FTP

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 06-01-2019, 03:52 PM:

Though I wrote the firmware for the JSD-80 a LONG time ago, I do not remember the details. I suggest contacting CinemaTechSupport@qsc.com .

There is GUI and firmware for 7.1 at http://ftp.uslinc.com/Products/JSD-80/Software/

Harold

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 06-02-2019, 05:06 PM:

For the average software programmer, 5 years is already 10 frameworks, 7 programming languages and 4 different development project management philosophies later. [Razz]

quote: Marco Giustini
The DTS is an Ultra Stereo JSD-80 if not mistaken. I think it may be flexible enough to do what you want but it’s been a long time since I played with one of those.

I'm not sure about this, but didn't the DTS6AD come with DTS-branded firmware? I didn't know you could simply replace it with stock JSD-80 firmware.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-03-2019, 07:01 AM:

The DTS-6AD was DTS all of the way. It was the XD-10P that was a JSD processor in disguise. There were differences and restrictions on the DTS version. The software was slightly different but I know you could connect to the DTS one with the JSD80 one. Surround 7.1 was a later software version that may not have ever been incorporated into the DTS version.

Tom Atkinson at QSC would probably be your best resource as he was present at USL during that time and would have fielded those sorts of calls.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-03-2019, 06:01 PM:

The DTS XD10P was an OEM version of the JSD-80. It lacked some hardware options, but supported the two 8ch modes. It was missing the S/P-DIF / AC3 decoder board. I service one location with an DTS XD10P using the latest version of the JSD-80 config software.

- Carsten

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 06-06-2019, 03:54 AM:

Thank you everybody for your answers.

I contacted with USL/QSC people and they told me that (of course) they don't support a DTS device, but they tell me that using JSD80 firmware on a DTS XD10P is possible as they saw this before.

The question now is what do I need to install first?

Carsten said that windows JSD80 software "see" a XD10P processor, so the first is to try this.

If this works, there are different firmwares for the different modules:
- PIC Firmware
- Matrix Firmware
- NR Firmware
- EQ Firmware
Any idea about the installing order?

This processor have an extraíble SD card module to store configurations and restore files.
Maybe it could be a good idea to save this SD card and install a new one to make "experiments".

Another question:
Where can I get a DCP 7.1 audio test clip with standard channels configuration to play it endless to see if every channel is being played in the side it must be being played?
Something like a voice saying: "left screen channel" encoded in the standard Left screen channel, and the same thing for the rest of the 7.1 channels.
Maybe I can do this myself using DCP'o'matic from an MP4 7.1 source (or similar)...

Regards!

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 06-06-2019, 06:28 AM:

I can't help you on the firmware installing order. But regarding the test files, I think there is a 7.1 CPL in here:

http://isdcf.com/SMPTE-DCP-Content/SMPTE_TST-B1B2Q_S_EN-EN-CCAP_51-HI-VI_2K_ISDCF_20161007_TCF_SMPTE.zip

With those you can also test your VI/HI channels.

quote: Steve Guttag
The DTS-6AD was DTS all of the way. It was the XD-10P that was a JSD processor in disguise.

Yep, I mixed up the models there. The 6AD is/was obviously one of the native DTS units with DTS disc reading capabilities.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-06-2019, 06:28 AM:

Harold should be able to send you an FTP link to access all the JSD80 documentation and software. Oh, he did already...just read through the docs.

- Carsten

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 06-06-2019, 09:12 AM:

Firmware install order does not make any difference on the JSD-80. The "personality module" is a custom EEPROM module, not an SD card.

Harold

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-06-2019, 10:15 AM:

The DTS XD10P unlike the USL JSD80 doesnt support a mix of 5.1 and 7.1 The USL if configured to 7.1 does a sort of EX for the rear wall

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 06-06-2019, 11:24 AM:

quote:
e can I get a DCP 7.1 audio test clip with standard channels configuration

If you have access to the DolbyCustomer website, they have exactly the
type of 7.1 test clip you are looking for, which voices the channels.

It repeats twice, but you can loop it indefinitely in your server.

Or, send me a PM and I have several different versions of 5.1 & 7.1 test
files I can send to you if you give me your e-mail address.

(I tried through the board but your e-mail seems to be blocked)

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 06-06-2019, 04:48 PM:

The clip Jim is referring to on Dolby customer also identifies HI and VI. Those channels have a voice identification that says "hearing impaired" and "visually impaired" repeatedly on the respective channel.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-06-2019, 05:09 PM:

The unencrypted ISDCF SMPTE Test-DCP goes up to channel 14 (dbox and SMPTE/ATMOS sync) and adds visual cues, I think Marcel already linked to that, it is a free download without registration:

http://isdcf.com/SMPTE-DCP-Content/SMPTE_TST-B1B2Q_S_EN-EN-CCAP_51-HI-VI_2K_ISDCF_20161007_TCF_SMPTE.zip

It includes a 5.1 and a 7.1 version, the only difference being the naming for Left/Right vs. Left/Right Side Surrounds.

- Carsten

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-05-2019, 01:50 PM:

I am interested, is it possible to update DTS XD10P with same firmware for JSD80 to have 7.1 capability?