Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Today’s episode of “How does this happen?”

This is topic Today’s episode of “How does this happen?” in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 06-02-2019, 11:38 PM:

Curiously, I just referred to this same issue in another post, that happened at this same theater (but on a different screen) about a decade ago.

Simply put, a Fathom screening of Saving Private Ryan looked great, but all the audio channels were off by one!

All dialog was coming from the left channel. Right channel music was coming from the center channel. Surround effects were coming from the right channel.

A decade ago to solve this they rebooted everything, but I don’t know how this would even happen in the first place. A known CP650 bug? Does something try to compensate if a power glitch causes one channel to momentarily disappear?

Best of all was when the manager’s manager told me “some films are just made that way” - yeah, not so much for a film I am intimately familiar with the mix of like Saving Private Ryan.

Obviously they never fixed it and I got free concession coupons.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-03-2019, 05:31 AM:

I am not aware of such an issue with the 650 - that doesn't mean that there isn't one.

Was that 35mm or Digital? If Digital, it could have been the DA before the 650, assuming the 650 wasn't running on AES itself.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-03-2019, 05:51 AM:

I remember the CP750 has some 'channel hopping' issue occasionally.

- Carsten

Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 06-03-2019, 07:07 AM:

What theater was this, William?

I saw Saving Private Ryan at the UA Colorado Mills theater last night and the audio was solid.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 06-03-2019, 08:29 AM:

Do you know what the source for Saving Private Ryan was?
DCP? Blu-Ray? Satellite or ISP connection, & how they handled the audio?
(And how do you know they were using a CP-650?)

The only time I've had a CP-650 do something similar to this was if
you were using pro-logic decoding on the non-sync inputs (for a DVD
or BRD, for example) and you had either had a bad RCA cable, or had
inadvertently swapped the L & R signal inputs.
I accidentally did this once and as I recall I had audio coming primarily
out of the left screen channel, and the other channels were wonky too.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 06-03-2019, 12:06 PM:

I had this happen once with my "old" gdc server (the one that I just replaced a couple of weeks ago).

I started the movie and immediately thought something is wrong because the "turn off your cellphone" trailer sounded odd on the projection room monitor. Since I have a dozen or so of those I have played each one of them so many times that I'm intimately familiar with what each one is supposed to be, and this one didn't sound right.

I ran into the auditorium and sure enough the channels were switched around. So I told the audience that I'll have to reboot some equipment and will restart the movie in a few minutes. Which I did and it was then fine.

That's the one and only time that happened to me, though. I never knew that could even happen until it did.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 06-03-2019, 01:37 PM:

The Fathom presentation of Saving Private Ryan is on DCP. I want to say Deluxe sent the drive but Fathom seems to use three distributors, including their own in house DCP company to send content (like today's National Theater presentation) to theaters who's Dish TV receivers had issues and didn't record the content on the DVRs.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 06-03-2019, 07:32 PM:

It was a digital presentation at the AMC Westminster Promenade 24. I am assuming DCP as all the pre-show content was present, but noticed the audio issue when the host introduced previews of coming Fathom presentations, his voice was coming only from the left channel.

Curiously, the presentation was in a different theater than 99% of their other Fathom presentations are (screen five rather than four.)

I made an assumption on the 650 as that's what they used to use and don't know if they ever upgraded. The theater was very recently remodeled but isn't Atmos-capable.

Ironically the contrast on the Fathom presentation was the best I've ever seen from Fathom; normally grey areas are at such a high level you are always aware of the unfilled side bars, as AMC doesn't mask screens (but at least they show flat content on a wider screen rather than letterbox scope.) By comparison, Fathom content shown at the Century Boulder has black levels best described as a mid-tone grey at best, and TCM Fathom screenings shown at the AMC are somewhat better but didn't look as good as Saving Private Ryan did.

Not to bash them, but as an aside, as the film finished, I had to notify management that several people were seated in theater three waiting for their 9:45 PM showing of The Hustle to start and were looking at a completely blank screen… at 10:05 PM.

(I took a peek in because the doors were still wide open, you could see the screen was blank but it was 10:05 and I noticed the sign said showtime was 9:45.)

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-04-2019, 04:35 AM:

Well, I guess some films are just made that way...

- Carsten

Posted by Will McElroy (Member # 10899) on 06-04-2019, 06:28 PM:

I’ve been scouring the internet for clues regarding a “how does this happen” theater projection question of my own, and it happens to regard the Fathom Saving Private Ryan screening at my local theater on Sunday, so I hope this thread is an okay place to jump in and see what I might learn.

I have no training in the art of projection, so I’m speaking only as someone who is maybe just on the pedantic end of the consumer side. I go to the movies like 5 times a week, and I’m pretty confident in my observations, but I don’t know all the terms or what actually goes into getting the ideal presentation.

But what I’ve observed with increasing frequency at these Fathom screenings is the picture being severely “zoomed in,” cropped on all sides, but most obviously at the top — obvious due to the abundance of dialogue scenes where the person talking is cut off above the eyes, in shots that usually would have their whole head and a comfortable amount of headroom above that. In recent memory, this has happened at Jurassic Park, Wizard of Oz, Batman Returns and the Saving Private Ryan on Sunday.

The aspect ratio is always correct (1.85:1 in all the above cases except Oz obviously).. they’re just missing a lot of picture all the way around. Ever since Jurassic Park, I’ve made a habit of memorizing the composition of a bunch of shots from the beginning of a film before attending, paying particular attention to what’s visible around the periphery, and sometimes I’m relieved to find that everything is there, but when it’s cropped it’s always pretty shocking just how much is missing. I’ll also usually note a lot of shots during the movie to check against a blu ray or download at home (always same aspect ratio — I’m not going home and looking at open matte versions or anything like that.) I know some cropping around the edges probably always happens to get the picture clean and straight, but this is egregious, seemingly like 20% of the total picture, destroying the composition.

It seems like it’s probably not that Fathom is sending out DCP’s of mangled versions of films, or these complaints would probably be more widespread. Everyone here definitely would have noticed. But whenever I’ve brought it to the attention of the employees at my theater, there’s never an actual projectionist on hand, and usually the folks who are there just kind of shrug and say “this movie probably just looks like that” or “old movies are weird.” One time the manager did something that made the curtains pull out to reveal more of the screen, as if for a cinemascope film, which of course just exposed black bars on the sides of the picture. Then he was like “well, I’ve tried everything I can do and that didn’t help. There’s no crop option so the DCP is just like that. Complain to Fathom.”

I think the actual projectionist may only be there on Friday mornings, so switching from the regular program to Fathom content during the week may fall to people who don’t know what they’re doing.

I’m just wondering if anyone might have any clue as to where the problem may lie. Do most DCP’s include some kind of border or ‘gutter’ around the edges that the projectors are usually set to compensate for, and maybe Fathom’s don’t have that so the regular settings end up eating a lot of the actual picture? Or, I’ve heard of “screen files”.. are those a common thing? Do they come with every DCP, with different settings? Maybe the weekday crew doesn’t know how to handle those?

I definitely never encounter this on the regular films that run all week, nor any non-Fathom special screenings. They may not all be classics that I’m familiar with, but I think I’d notice if a new film looked at best claustrophobic, or more likely just ineptly framed. So I wonder if there’s anything different about what Fathom provides that is tripping people up.

I’m just hoping that if I have a better idea of what might be happening, I could point them in the right direction to fix it, or at least they might get the regular projectionist to take a look at it and make sure the weekday crew knows what they need to do. So far they always seem pretty ambivalent, and skeptical of the notion that there’s anything that even *could* happen on their end to account for such a problem.

If it helps, I made an approximation of one of the shots I remember from Saving Private Ryan. https://imgur.com/a/vSW8j7y

Thanks a lot to anyone who read this and might be able to lend your experience or expertise to the issue!

Will McElroy

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 06-05-2019, 12:52 AM:

Hello, Will. Welcome to Film-Tech forums.

A large portion of the Fathom Events come from a dedicated high definition channel on the Dish Network. These theaters have a satellite dish on the roof, with a DVR (now the newer Hopper version) which is where a lot of the Fathom content is stored. Some content, like scope ratio movies, will come on DCP either via a hard drive shipped to the theater or via another satellite set up, in my building, called a DCDC which has a raid of hard drives which store feature content and trailers. Some of the feature content is in 4K resolution but most of it is 2K. Most of it is formatted for the size of the screen most of us have at home. I ran Steel Magnolias first run in 35mm around Thanksgiving of 1989 and while it can be argued I have bias I swear it looked better then as opposed to the Fathom showings we had recently, which came off the satellite dish and played back from the DVR. The DVR content is 2K.
The DVR is hooked up to the theater's projector, the same one which plays the main features via HDMI cable, and the sound is routed through the processor which supplies the feature sound, in the case of my processor under Toslink.
The newer Hopper DVR's are networked, meaning a tech from Fathom can get into the DVR to program automatic starts of content and even monitor the status of the DVR. Recently one of the techs discovered we were no longer receiving from the dish and sent a Dish tech out to the theater to rectify the issue. That is why my building received a DCP hard drive of yesterday's National Theater event as the DVR was not able to record it off the satellite.
The theater's booth engineer is supposed to be able to set masking and other variables in the auditorium. Large chains only have a few engineers, and most schedule preventive maintenance once a year. And because of emergencies and new installs, they are often behind schedule.

Posted by Will McElroy (Member # 10899) on 06-05-2019, 01:38 AM:

Thanks a lot for all this info! Definitely gives me a better idea of what Fathom does. I missed Steel Magnolias but I’ve definitely seen some other Fathom screenings, usually among the TCM series, that seem like 1080p or worse, really suffering on such a big screen. Wizard of Oz looked pretty bad all around, even though I know a 4K restoration of it exists.

Anyway, if the Fathom features are playing from a DVR that isn’t used for any of the regular first run fare the multiplex usually traffics in, maybe my mysterious Fathom cropping issue has something to do with a setting on the DVR, or some setting on the projector regarding that particular HDMI input? Because (for example) the movie “Ma” is playing on the same screen as Saving Private Ryan tomorrow, all day before and after, and I’m sure it’s going to look totally normal. If there’s some simple fix on the DVR, I just hope they figure it out in time for Lawrence of Arabia in September! Haha.

Huh, not sure if this could be relevant but I just remembered that a friend of mine recently hosted a screening of The Firm (don’t ask) at the same theater, and I’m pretty sure he said they were planning to play it from a blu ray, until the theater requested that they *make a DCP from the blu ray* because switching devices would be too much to ask of whoever would be on staff that night. But that was in one of the bigger auditoriums, where, come to think of it, Fathom stuff has usually looked fine. Most of the botched presentations took place in a particular other auditorium on the other side of the theater.. maybe that’s where the DVR is set up? At any rate, non-Fathom stuff still looks fine in that room and not even *all* the Fathom stuff is messed up there. I specifically remember some of the anime stuff looking good, subtitles not cropped out. Maybe that stuff came as DCP? Hmmm..

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-05-2019, 05:55 AM:

Will - it is entirely possible that on this location, the projector preset used to show the HDMI/DVI source is using an unusual amount of cropping. This would be a different setting than what they use for regular DCP showings.

Unfortunately, even a so called 'projectionist' will sometimes not be able to correct this. These settings are typically not available to the average user, and depending on his knowlegde, even he may not be able to see what you are talking about. Nevertheless, go and have a try. The easiest way to convince him that there is something wrong is to connect another source to this input using the 'fathom projector preset', and notice the cropping. A standard PC/notebook outputting 1080p e.g. would lack a considerable portion of the GUI - e.g. the taskbar would probably be missing completely. There are also a number of test images in 1080p available on the net that will depict the amount of pixels cropped from either side.

- Carsten

Posted by Will McElroy (Member # 10899) on 06-05-2019, 10:47 AM:

That sounds great, thank you! I’ll see if I can get in touch with whoever might have the ability to look into this, and if they don’t have the ability to fix it, maybe they will be able to involve someone who can. All these insights are much appreciated.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 06-05-2019, 03:03 PM:

Carsten is correct. Most of the settings are not accessible to me with the DVR to projector settings.
Lawrence of Arabia should be on DCP, if I recall correctly.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-06-2019, 01:52 AM:

What is Fathom?

And not for nuthin, if I sat down to watch SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and was confronted with a pile-o-sheet image cropped like the one you showed us, I would have walked out and demanded my money back. Any so-called "cinema" personnel who, when confronted with such a piss-poor presentation, shugs and thinks "that's just the way it is"...you know, because old movies are "weird," that person needs to be roundly embarassed in front of all the patrons and then fired.

William, I strongly suggest you go to Yelp and write a review...don't let them get away with this kind of mutilation of classic films. Go to their Facebook page or their twitter or any other place they have a presence and write a scathing review. And if this is they way this Fathom outfit authored the film, the theatre should have refused to play it outright, although my gut tells me to suspect a brainless theatre operator before thinking a distributor sent out such a faulty DCP. Seems like this exhibitor, if they really are so incompetent as to not even realize that something is very VERY wrong with the presentation, they would be better off just getting a Taco Bell franchise and get out of the movie business altogether.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-06-2019, 06:39 AM:

https://www.amctheatres.com/fathom

Probably a mix of live/prerecorded live events and 'classic' presentations. They obviously are selling the 'classic' presentations as something special - but if all they do is showing a typical satellite DVB-S feed, that's just plain cheap. Why would I go to a movie theatre to watch a meager satellite video instead of a proper DCP of these titles? The sound would probably be AC-3.

- Carsten

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 06-06-2019, 08:07 AM:

I have to say I see a lot of Fathom screenings and always discuss presentation errors here, but I have never seen “zoomed in” presentation like that Will experienced, but if I had, I would have demanded a refund.

Though receiving content via DISH rather than a DCP may explain some of the poor contrast presentations I have seen, or it could just have been bad presentation.

As far as why someone would go to a theater to watch a bad presentation from satellite, I’m sure most theaters rely on customers not knowing any different. All they know is it’s an opportunity to see (insert movie name here) “on the big screen.”

The problem is that audiences will probably think that as horrible as they look when shown in these presentations, that is the way they originally looked theatrically. Most people have no clue what these features looked like theatrically unless they’re old enough to have seen them during their original release.

I will say the AMC/Fathom presentation of Saving Private Ryan I saw also had the volume too low, but that’s a perpetual complaint of mine. I saw on its original release presented in a THX-certified theater, so I know what it should sound like.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-08-2019, 01:03 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
Probably a mix of live/prerecorded live events and 'classic' presentations. They obviously are selling the 'classic' presentations as something special - but if all they do is showing a typical satellite DVB-S feed, that's just plain cheap. Why would I go to a movie theatre to watch a meager satellite video instead of a proper DCP of these titles?

You wouldn't and I wouldn't but such is the power of sleazy marketing. Get the uninformed in and suck the money out of their wallets before they realize what happening.

Not knowing what Fantom was, I thought perhaps it was a sub- distributor packaging "classics" (there's an over used word) but it's just an AMC move to try to fill seats on off-peak hours or something to put into their multiplexes that may have a few too many screens to fill with current product.

Remember when one of the selling points for digital that they were shouting about...the capability of digital to play all kinds of "alternative content" that would fill seats in off-peak hours? I guess Fantom is it. I always scratched my head thinking, there is a REASON the place is empty at 11am on Monday morning, even when a blockbuster is playing; what makes anyone one think a video of a Philip Glass opera or the Royal Shakespeare's stage production of, well, anything is going to fill those seats at 11am on Monday morning? And what is the difference between those classy alternate content shows than a PBS Great Performance, especially on a big screen TV.
Evidently AMC thinks it will pull in ticket buyers.

Granted, I have gone to a number of those "AC" shows and was glad they were available, but at almost all of them, you could count the number of other people in the theatre who were glad they were available on two hands and maybe half of one foot. Probably not enough to pay for the electricity to turn on the projector and the amps. Then again, possibly even if they lose money on such one-off shows, AMC or other exhibitors may do it just for the "classy" factor...give their place some gravitas. It might be good for their branding. But if they keep up this kind of botched presentation, a curse on all their houses.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 06-08-2019, 04:50 PM:

I cant imagine a Directv feed looking very good projected large.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 06-11-2019, 06:47 AM:

FWIW the Fathom presentation of Saving Private Ryan looked good, as compared to the TCM/Fathom showing of True Grit a few weeks ago which comparatively just looked washed out with poor contrast.

More on Fathom Events for those so interested:

quote:
Fathom Events is owned by the nation’s three largest exhibitors – AMC, Cinemark and Regal Entertainment Group. This exclusive partnership along with our wide network of 60+ affiliates delivers the most comprehensive live network of theaters to our event partners. Make an impact using our venues, expertise and promotions to deliver astonishing results.

Fathom Events acquires, markets and distributes exclusive events to the largest national network of movie theaters offering both live and prerecorded events across our proprietary Digital Broadcast Network.

Using over 15 years of event experience and data analysis, Fathom Events has built a robust distribution strategy tailored uniquely to various types of content and audiences ranging from performing arts to concerts and live sporting events.

Fathom Events

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-12-2019, 12:36 AM:

Make an impact using our venues, expertise and promotions to deliver astonishing results. Evidently by "astonishing results" they mean lots o money, not lots o great presentation.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 06-15-2019, 10:07 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
What is Fathom?

Fathom is a third party company that provides all sorts of alternative content and live events to movie theaters. Typically have different ticket prices as well.

quote: Frank Angel
And not for nuthin, if I sat down to watch SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and was confronted with a pile-o-sheet image cropped like the one you showed us, I would have walked out and demanded my money back. Any so-called "cinema" personnel who, when confronted with such a piss-poor presentation, shugs and thinks "that's just the way it is"...you know, because old movies are "weird," that person needs to be roundly embarassed in front of all the patrons and then fired.

While I agree that is the cinema's responsibility to provide correct and proper presentation, I hardly feel it'd be appropriate for a 16 year old minimum wage popcorn jockey to be shamed and then fired because they doesn't know what aspect ratios are. Even management may have little to no control in the presentation at the location, willingly or not. If you want to complain, complain to corporate or you yourself may be the one making a fool out of himself. Trust me, I'd love to control as much as I used to, but nowadays, we barely even have control over showtimes let alone projection tech.

quote: Frank Angel
I always scratched my head thinking, there is a REASON the place is empty at 11am on Monday morning, even when a blockbuster is playing; what makes anyone one think a video of a Philip Glass opera or the Royal Shakespeare's stage production of, well, anything is going to fill those seats at 11am on Monday morning? And what is the difference between those classy alternate content shows than a PBS Great Performance, especially on a big screen TV.

The Opera events do fairly well here even despite zero advertising, especially to the target audience. Those typically look very good on screen too. They certainly do better than whatever holdover in it's 3rd week would do at noon on a Wednesday. Fathom is a decent option for theaters who wish to provide alternative content but want it to be easy and don't want to do it themselves.

quote: Frank Angel
Evidently by "astonishing results" they mean lots o money, not lots o great presentation.

In my experience, a large majority of these events don't look any worse than any given standard current movie. Not to say that couldn't or shouldn't be improved but still....