Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: SCREEN X

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 07-10-2019, 08:00 PM:

I am sorry if this was discussed before but if it was I never saw it. Regal Dole Cannery Theatre here in Honolulu recently was set up with a Screen X three screen format and I did not know anything about it until today when someone posted a Facebook comment about it. I know it features three screens with one in the centre and two on each side and was wondering how good is it.

Like 3D, does a theatre charge extra for it and have there been a lot of movies already released in the process ?

-Claude

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 07-10-2019, 08:27 PM:

There is one Screen X screen here in Los Angeles, and I went to see Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales a few years back. I was not impressed. The Screen X system lit up much more of the side walls than Barco Escape in a dramatic way, but was not utilized for the entire feature, and the extra imagery was clearly not created by the original production. I think it would be an interesting technology for a theme park application, but for regular motion picture viewing I found it to be distracting and detrimental to the image quality of the primary image onscreen (negatively impacting contrast on the main screen). The Screen X showing did have an upcharge.

That said, it's interesting, and I'd encourage you to at least check it out once.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 07-10-2019, 08:50 PM:

Thanks Daniel.

Posted by Terry Monohan (Member # 8285) on 07-11-2019, 11:08 AM:

The two new San Francisco Theatres going in now will have this Screen X system put in .

The UA/Regal Stonestown 11 and the former space that the AMC Van Ness Theatre was in are both getting this screen along with 4D X.

Screen X always looks better with a new build that they have the surround speakers aimed way down from the top of the ceiling. There is nothing worse when they put the two side wall projectors in a older cinema, you can see the side surround speakers on the picture.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-11-2019, 11:10 AM:

Such a stupid idea! They are trying to give a deep curved screen effect and all they have to do is put in a deeply curved screen to do that on. The "you are there" effect is a thousand times better on a deep curved screen. And if they'd be using three projectors on said curved screen than pixel loss would not be so high. For a number of years I did work for a chain in the Mountain States that had a lot of deeply curved screens, and when we started installing digital for them I noticed the pixel loss was so high after setting up the masking that they may as well have been running 16mm.

Mark

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 07-11-2019, 04:57 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Such a stupid idea! They are trying to give a deep curved screen effect and all they have to do is put in a deeply curved screen to do that on. The "you are there" effect is a thousand times better on a deep curved screen. And if they'd be using three projectors on said curved screen than pixel loss would not be so high.

Given how good seamless image stitching has become, it does seem like a really good time to bring back 3-projector Cinerama. 3 RGB laser 4K projectors filling in a deep-curve screen would be pretty cool...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-11-2019, 09:25 PM:

I'd settle for one projector with lens ground for the deep curve!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-12-2019, 07:33 AM:

quote:
I'd settle for one projector with lens ground for the deep curve!

Just so it minimizes the loss of pixels after masking. I am inclined to agree that three (4K) projectors might actually be better. It certainly would be brighter and require smaller lamps...

Mark

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 07-12-2019, 07:45 AM:

The biggest problem with stitching DLP images together is the awful black levels. Even the RGB laser machines still leak so much light, that you really can see the overlap, without adding some extra filtering.

What you would want is a big farm of Barco 909s on the ceiling in the front of those screens. Those things could be edge-blended to perfection... [Wink]

If you're doing projection mapping on a large building outside, the black levels aren't a problem, they vanish in the ambient light, but inside a dark room like a cinema, you're going to notice quite quickly when stuff is off.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-12-2019, 09:02 AM:

Marcel, All conemas have some ambient light in relation to projector black level. SMPTE was actually working on a spec for this many years ago... donno why they seemed to drop the ball on it though. Many rooms have a tad bit excessive ambient light just due to emergency egress lights that are required by local fire code. I have had customers that tried to wire lamps in egress lighting fixtures in series, or use glow in the dark lettering instead only to be caught during yearly fire inspections. The basic code is the same everywhere for it. You also must have a certain minimum "foot candle" level of lighting on aisles so people do not fall (They will anyway, but then they can not sue). I have a customer that was once sued because the foot candle level was too low and a patron was injured in the stadium area. Patron won a 50K dollar jugment and my customer had to replace ALL the aisle lighting in an 8 screen theater so it would meet code. So I think that in this country the black level is less critical, because in a lot of situations the ambient lighting is going to be above the black level anyway.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-12-2019, 11:01 AM:

What I like about the single lens approach is that it would work with any projector and any server and any movie. One less proprietary thing to go out of fashion costing exhibitors yet more $$$ for short-lived gimmicks.

In my years in the industry, I've found that people tend to go to deep-curved screens (which are also typically associated with large screens). Getting the distortion out of the picture would be great, however. One thing we did have at the Uptown in DC when running 70mm are lenses that effectively corrected for the curve.

I really think if Schneider/ISCO came out with deep curve lenses/attachments, there would be a set of cinemas that would buy them. They'd be very expensive but where they would go in, so are the screens that they would project on.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-12-2019, 03:32 PM:

Well, not just any projector. Yo9u wopuld need 4K plus lamp size if you are going to be on any kind of screen. Where as you cold probably get away with 2 to 3kw lamps on a three projector setup. I think light distribution wold also be better in a triple setup.

Mark

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 07-12-2019, 06:14 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Marcel, All conemas have some ambient light in relation to projector black level. SMPTE was actually working on a spec for this many years ago... donno why they seemed to drop the ball on it though.

Sure, but those ambient light levels, even in the worst case, are nothing compared to those of a church, office building or some castle in some theme park under the open skies.

Put two standard DCI projectors side by side, simply project a non-overlapping black image at the screen on both and turn the lights off. Even with the ambient light from aisle lightning and emergency exit signs, you'll exactly see the contours of both projections and where they overlap. The most used solution right now is to "raise the black level" of the part of the image that doesn't overlap.

Well, it's great to have more resolution (as in more pixels), but it sucks giving up contrast (as in less "color resolution").

There are some edge blending kits for some projectors, which you put in front of your lens and are used as "contrast corrector", but those things are pretty hard to work with.

In any case, stitching images together using multiple projectors will require either a non-DCI distribution or an extension of the DCI standard.

quote: Steve Guttag
I really think if Schneider/ISCO came out with deep curve lenses/attachments, there would be a set of cinemas that would buy them. They'd be very expensive but where they would go in, so are the screens that they would project on.

I'm wondering what kind of lenses they're using for those Warren (now Regal) Grand Infinity screens, they do have a pretty deep curved screen and I guess they do at the least some optical adjustment.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-12-2019, 08:55 PM:

Schneider did make some primes, and also a few lenses for giant screen theaters. Dwight always said the DLP lenses are extremely difficult to grind because there are multiple flourite elements in them. And flourite is soft and shatters easily in the grinding machine. So I guess it took them several years. Beyond that I have not kept track of it.

Mark

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-12-2019, 10:42 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
I'm wondering what kind of lenses they're using for those Warren (now Regal) Grand Infinity screens, they do have a pretty deep curved screen and I guess they do at the least some optical adjustment.

If there was any adjustment going on it sure as hell wasn't working. I visited the Warren Broken Arrow theater one time (not long after the theater had just first opened before Regal bought out the existing Warren locations). I did not like the image quality at all. Not one bit. Bill Warren is fixing to open a new Warren location not owned by Regal in Midwest City, OK. It's supposed to have 4 big screen Infinity houses. I'm hoping those houses don't have deep curved screens.

The fatal problem was the sheer height of the auditorium and the position of the projector port. The two Grand Infinity houses have standard sloped seating on the ground level, but also have balconies. The projector port is above the balcony level. So it's aiming down at a VERY STEEP angle at an extremely curved screen. Any higher and the projector port would have been coming out of the ceiling.

I don't think there's a feasible way to overcome the optical/geometrical issues of that situation. I'm sure they probably had very expensive lenses with custom ground glass made as well as the best keystone correction available in a digital projector. Whatever steps they took just didn't work. All one needed to confirm this problem was looking at a green band on the front of a movie trailer. The white lines of lettering on the green background were not remotely level at all. The lines of copy took on an obvious smile shape. The image wasn't badly out of focus, but it wasn't crisp enough to really show off 4K resolution either.

The really tall auditorium ceiling wasn't great for Atmos either. I didn't hear those ceiling surround speakers at all.

How many FT participants visited the National Twin theater in Times Square back in the day? I visited the theater only a couple or so times. My go-to choice most of the time was the Ziegfeld. I'd visit other theaters like the Astor Plaza, Lowes 34th St Showplace, City Cinemas' Cinema One or Gramercy Theater when the Ziegfeld wasn't showing a given movie in 70mm. Anyway, the National Twin theater had a tall main auditorium with a balcony. IIRC, the projector ports were under the balcony in order to have a more direct aim at the screen. If you were sitting in the back row on the ground level it would have not been difficult to reach a hand up in front of the projector beam. And this theater didn't have a deeply curved screen. One complaint: next to the screen there were these curved architectural columns. They did a good job of reflecting ambient light back onto the left and right ends of the screen. But, other than that, I do like the idea of having a projector port built aiming at the dead center of the screen. A deep curved screen and projector with custom glass can probably work well in that arrangement.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-13-2019, 04:56 AM:

I'm reasonably sure that the Warren theatres didn't have any sort of special lenses.

4K-6K xenon or, more likely RGB laser is how to go for a big deep curve and...special lenses. The bigger xenon or laser will be less expensive than the two additional projectors and the odds of a lens failure will be far less than the failure of the additional projectors. When a replacement projector is necessary due to technology obsolescence, the lenses could continue (particularly if done as an attachment). I think as resolutions increase, the ability to warp the image will be viable too (consume resolution to eliminate the distortion but we need a high enough resolution to start with to wind up at 4K effective).

That said, I think direct-view emissive screes will be the ultimate solution for something like this...once they get sound coming through the screen rather than around and bouncing off of it.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-13-2019, 07:56 AM:

While laser is a great thing I don't see the average chain installing it. The payback time is soooo long that it may never actually make money, not to mention the hundred thousand dollar lens for the curved screen. Only very large theaters could make that work.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-13-2019, 11:39 AM:

As predicted, the laser prices are coming down. Christie was first with their CP4325 to get a 4KW equivalent laser projector below $100K (at 4K resolution).

Barco, with the new SP4K series puts 4K RGB laser at the same price as 4K xenon. Christie will have their versions by this time next year. NEC could be in serious trouble as they cling to the CFL mentality of Laser-Phosphor. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't start coming up with their own version of the SP4K line (I would presume they have an equal access to the same chip technology). They just need to move away from LP and into RGB with the more affordable lasers.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-13-2019, 01:59 PM:

Agree about the NEC laser thing... they are always last! They should be affordable just about the time we need to replace the S-2 4K projectors.

Mark

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-13-2019, 05:20 PM:

LED-based movie screens could be built to any shape, be it a deep curve or even a dome. The two biggest problems is cost and current board designs that don't let sound travel through them. Cost per pixel has been coming down, but it has a long way to go before such screens can be installed on a widespread basis. It's going to take radical new board designs to conquer the sound problem.

I saw that Samsung installed its first Onyx LED screen in the United States at a new dine-in theater near Houston. It's a 46' wide unit. I don't know if it's 2K or 4K though. It would be interesting to see. Unfortunately I don't get down to Houston very often anymore.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-13-2019, 05:48 PM:

It's 4K. Samsung has three sizes. 2K, 4K, larger 4K. The 2K and 4K have the same pixel pitch so the 2K is 1/4 the size of the 4K. The large 4K has a larger pixel pitch.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 07-14-2019, 01:25 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
4K-6K xenon or, more likely RGB laser is how to go for a big deep curve and...special lenses. The bigger xenon or laser will be less expensive than the two additional projectors and the odds of a lens failure will be far less than the failure of the additional projectors.

From what I remember, the Warren Infinity screens in their Broken Arrow complex were Barco's first 6P installs in the U.S., or at least that was the original plan.

Without any special lenses, shooting from such an angle on such a screen, it's almost incredible they even got their focus somewhat right.

Regarding emissive screens, I'm wondering if we can see some moves from Christie and Barco on this front. They both have existing product lines in this regards. While it may cut into their projector business, given the current costs of those deployments, it wouldn't cut into their bottom line.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-14-2019, 01:52 AM:

Barco has been in the LED variable message center display game for some time. I'm not aware of Christie being a player in the LED display game. Barco has been established for some time, but they're not a dominant player in that market like Daktronics or even other vendors like Watchfire and Mistubishi. Dak is the king of that market currently. Daktronics is dominating in mainstream outdoor sign applications and hitting it in big high profile projects like NFL or MLB stadium displays.

The fundamental problem with LED "driver boards" (that's what we call the individual tiles) is each one of them has a bunch of components installed on the back side of the board. It's more than just a grid of LED clusters loaded into a plastic panel with light blocking hoods over every row. Behind each tile you have fans, IC boards, cable inputs and other kinds of electronic "trash." In order for sound to be able to pass through these LED tiles all of that crap on the back side of each board has to be simplified in an extreme way. The chips and IC boards have to be miniaturized as much as possible. Connections between each tile must be simplified as much as possible. If you can get all the electronic garbage on the back side of each tile minimized as much as possible it might be feasible to build new tiles in such a manner where speakers can fire audio through them. We're not there now unfortunately.