• Manufacturers will often require the machine to be running the current release version before being willing to assist with troubleshooting. Therefore, keeping machines current avoids the need to have to do the updating under pressure and while trying to fix a bigger problem.
• The update can fix bugs that are affecting your operation.
• The update can improve efficiency and reliability (e.g. NEC 900 updates improving lamp life, or ICP 4.5 putting the DMD mirrors at rest in a position that exposes them to less heat).
• The update can add support for new technical standards, e.g. SMPTE DCPs.
• The update can add new features that can benefit your operation (e.g. the ability to import and export automation cues in DSS 4.9).

• The updating process itself can go wrong, resulting in an unstable or even, in the worst case scenario, a bricked system. This is especially a risk if it is not on a UPS.
• The update can change the behavior of the system (e.g. rearrange buttons on a web UI) that imposes a learning curve on the end user, or even the tech.
• The update can introduce new bugs (e.g. Barco B series, 2.54 breaking the Smart Maintenance function).
• The update can break the reliable interaction between the machine being updated and others it has to interact with. I experienced this with an IMS3000 and a Lumagen scaler a few months back, and in the end the only way we could make the system reliable again was to downgrade the IMS to its previous version.

quote: Leo Enticknap

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The decision as to whether or not (and if so, when) to install software/firmware updates into projectors and servers can be a difficult one, and should always involve reading the release notes to establish what the update is supposed to do, followed by a risk/benefit analysis.

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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I had one site in Ogden, UT that ran their GDC severs on Ver 7.8 Final until hell froze over when one day they had to be able to play SMPTE content. So we updated all their servers in a rather large one time jump to the latest 8.XX, what ever it was at the time. Before this and like the 330 others I tend to, they never had one GDC problem over a 6 year span. Since the jump to 8.XX this site has since then seen multiple IMB failures, more than one on some screens, and one motherboard failure.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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Stories like this are precisely why Richard and many others prefer to take the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach to software and firmware updating.

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And not ever doing updates incrementally and then jumping to the front of the line is exactly why all the media blocks failed there after. Again, GDC even agreed with that. This "if it ain't broke don't fix it" idea is a fallacy that was well proven in this theater. Had this theater had the once or twice twice yearly updates done, they likely would not have lost any media blocks. And technically all six of their systems were all of a sudden broken because they were faced with having to play back SMPTE content and could not. And yes, they were warned about it several times over the years. Anyway, all my customers that had the once or twice yearly updates have some dam relaible systems that have never given them trouble.

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-17-2019, 07:28 PM:
 
That speaks more to GDC's failed design than to someone holding off on updating. If a system requires stepping through versions to be able to get to the desired version, then it would have been a simple matter for the updating software to check the current version and then decline to update.

Dolby did require that one step through the first DCI compliant version (4.4) before going to any later versions BUT they include that update and the system can perform that update and then immediately go to the desired one.

Christie projectors have specific limitations on their updates and state what version you have to be on in order to perform the update so one may indeed have to perform multiple updates to get to a desired/needed version.

NEC is a bit more flaky but one can normally move anywhere within a full version number safely It SHOULD be able to go from all but the earliest versions to current but it is safer to step through each full version before moving to current. I think one reason is that the ICP has specific requirements on getting to version 4.x so you have to have the ICP on the right version first. It has been so long since I moved an ICP from version 3, my memory is less clear but I recall that one really did want to be on the last version of ICP 3 before moving to 4 and it is always a good idea on the ICP when moving full versions to run the pre-installation first. The NEC updater will do this automatically.

Barco can go from any version to any version as it does its updates in "steps" anyway so it will go through as many steps as needed to incrementally put the projector on the new version. The ICP is kept separate, unlike the other two projectors, so one has to do the ICP updating separately and again, I recommend never moving more than one full version and always using the pre-installation version on each full version jump. Moving to version 4 can be rough. Furthermore, any of the lower versions of the ICP program will corrupt an ICP so moving to version 4 is a very good idea. 4.5.454 has been current for a LONG time and is quite stable.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-18-2019, 09:50 AM:
 
No, not at all Steve. If you recall I had no other failed media blocks out of the other 337 GDC based systems I installed. In fact they are all still running to this day except for three very early servers that were traded in recetly and replaced with SR-1000's. The failures all being on one place and occuring after the 8.XX upgrade says a whole lot about not doing progressive updating. FWIW The insides of GDC's media block is almost the same as the inside of Dolby's media block, right down to the chips ustilized. I have pictures of both of them. There are only so many ways this can be done after all. The main difference is in the firmware thats doing it via the exact same FPGA chips.

I have had approximately five GDC failures associated with certificate batteries because no one knew about the three year life of them, one NIC failure on an SX-3000, and one GDC motherboard failure. In fact out of all those systems only one OS drive has ever failed to this day. Thats pretty dam good.

Mark

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-18-2019, 11:02 AM:
 
Blah, blah, blah BS Mark. The failure rate of a CAT862 to a GDC mediablock is somewhere on a 20:1 against the GDC. I've had to retire exactly one CAT862, thus far (only shows White screen now...the server was converted to a DSL200 and lives on to this day). Conversely, I had yet another GDC mediablock die only 2-weeks ago.

Your equating mediblocks is like equating cars because they both have four rubber wheels and there is only but so many ways you can build a car to achieve similar results.

Oh and Dolby fully supported their mediablock 3.5 years after discontinuation, GDC only supported theirs for about 6-months and a full-year on the HFR IMB (SX-2000AR system). That is to say, GDC will honor its 3-year warranty on new servers but as far as repairing or offering an extended warranty on existing systems, nope 6 months on some, a year on others and then buy new with a discount. And now they they just "nag" the user about being out of warranty unless they pay the shake-down money for possible, but not guaranteed, software updates.

In any event, if a software update needs to step through versions (Regardless of who is writing it for what product), then I think it should be incumbent on the software to check to see if a prerequisite is met.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-18-2019, 01:28 PM:
 
I have not needed any support, nor do I anticipate needing any except probably at the one site. What this has essentially shown me is that GDC media blocks are indeed as reliable as Dolby.
BTW: I know of three CAT 862's that have failed.
Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-18-2019, 04:20 PM:
 
Only in your small world Mark. I doubt you get anyone that doesn't work at GDC to back up your statements. I've had at least half (if not more) of the GDC mediablocks (including original, SX2000AR and SX3000) fail to the point of replacement. I've had three CAT862s out of nearly 200 fail of which two have been repaired and still run to this day and one, as mentioned, has been retired. It really is a 20:1 ratio on the GDC failure rate. Oh...and no batteries on the CAT862 to contend with.

CAT745s have not fared as well. I've had something like 3 or 4 fail and need repairs and while we are talking about similar numbers as the CAT862, the quantity of those I have in are MUCH lower than the CAT862. We have been proactive in getting them converted over to the 10-year battery too...which Dolby will still do and for a rather low cost.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-18-2019, 06:50 PM:
 
Well, you are welcome to poll my customers. At least several of them are on this forum from time to time.

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-19-2019, 12:52 AM:
 
By all means...let them speak. I know Mike had to junk his original GDC server.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-19-2019, 12:48 PM:
 
FWIW, the consensus was that our server failure was probably caused by a power spike after an electrical storm - we upgraded to a media block via an insurance settlement.

(Yes, we have the system on a UPS, but this was a pretty potent storm -- it also took out the entire phone system at my day job, and it is on a UPS too.)
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-19-2019, 04:39 PM:
 
Thats pretty mmuch how I remember it too... It sorta died at the hand of God . But I honestly don't know how many insurance companies would cover that sort of thing. Does this company also sell car insurance?

Mark
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-19-2019, 05:22 PM:
 
It's a business interruption policy, it's part of our overall policy. It's pretty limited but it does cover projection equipment since that's "mission critical."
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-19-2019, 08:13 PM:
 
Thats awesome!
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-20-2019, 02:45 PM:
 
Mike,

I was at a theater in St George, Utah working in the booth at the time that was struck by lightening. It took the ballast out in the then nearly brand new NC-2000 that was closest to the area of the sidewalk outside the theater that was hit. I'd estimate it was about 20 feet from the strike point. It didn't die right away, but it did about three or four days later.

Mark
 

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Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 08-20-2019, 07:58 PM:
 
Equipment exposed to lightning and still operating is called "Walking Dead!"

It WILL fail at some recent time and very unpredictably. All of the equipment manufacturers that I have worked with will not repair nor guarantee the operation of equipment exposed to lightning or other very high voltage discharge conditions.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-20-2019, 10:57 PM:
 
Yep that's why we have our pretty-expensive UPS device protecting all our stuff. Between my house and two jobs, I think we own about a dozen of the things, but the one at the theatre is the most elaborate...go figure.
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-21-2019, 05:53 AM:
 
I'm not sure about the U.S. insurance market, but I do have an insurance that covers damage by lightning strikes up to a certain degree.

An active UPS will not help you with any serious lightning strikes. It will get rid of normal power peaks, but since there is no real galvanic isolation in them, they won't help you if it really hits.

There are UPS systems that run everything through their batteries and hence a separate transformers, but those are usually only employed in datacenters and hospitals.

Some of our stuff in our screening room is now double protected. Via a large active UPS and a surge protector. Since I don't trust UPSes (I've seen one go up in flames and I've seen the results of a fire caused by them), the UPS is now in a shed outside.

I also don't trust those surge protectors, but they come with a big warranty from the supplier (which has yet to be tested).

Most power surges aren't direct hits though, they're caused by induction, that's why you always need some kind of protection near the devices you want to protect. Those surges caused by induction will usually be handled without big fanfare by most UPSes and surge protectors.

Also keep in mind that any copper connection coming into your premises is prone to lightning strike, cable, telephone, etc. Even the dish you put on your roof is a potential target, make sure there is a good, separately grounded metallic conductor near it to avoid it being a target for juicy direct hits, because that could potentially fry anything connected to it...
 

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Posted by Bruce Cloutier (Member # 9615) on 08-22-2019, 09:30 AM:
 
You probably cannot totally eliminate the risk of damage from a lightning strike unless you enclose the whole facility inside of a hefty Faraday Cage (metal box). Most of the devices afford some protection from one kind of damaging current or another. Nothing guarantees complete protection.

I had my home struck years back and at least 80% of the electronics were taken out. Yet there was absolutely no evidence of a direct hit. Not a toothpick of seared wood or missing shingle. An anemometer up on a small grounded mast on the roof was completely disintegrated. Parts were found in the front and in the back yards but no melted metal or plastic.

My guess is that some (not an awful amount) of energy entered there and came down through the weather station into the wall power. Not far away was my Klipsch subwoofer which was a fatality. From there it followed the LFE cable to the surround system... gone. That let it onto the network. Every device on that network segment (wired) was history. Some of that was on a UPS. I had surge protectors.

This you might not believe but none of the remote controls worked after that. They all had dead batteries (0V). That includes the wall thermostat whose batteries were measured at 0 volts as well. I don't know if an EMP somehow can kill an alkaline battery. I couldn't believe that they all just died at that moment by coincidence. Normally there is some voltage left on the battery. Those things weren't connected to anything.

My insurance was great and replaced everything covering the replacement cost. I am emotionally attached to the SW and an engineer at Klipsch was great in providing schematics and an accurate Bill of Materials. There was no PCB damage. I replaced probably 50% of the components and that sub is still in use today. Without asking, the insurance company selected an hourly rate and paid me for the time to repair the subwoofer. Yeah, also unbelievable.

When I left for work that the morning there was a very active storm off to the West. There was a lot of strange cloud to cloud bolts of lightning that reached down from the clouds and seemed to return. I didn't pay much attention. My wife was still in the house when it reached us. Scared the crap out of her. I had to turn around and rush back home when she called.

So... S&*t happens.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-22-2019, 10:23 AM:
 
Back in the 1970's when I was a tech at Panasonic I used to see lightening damage electronics come in all the time. Some could be repaired but then others were literally blown apart inside and totaled. There is no predicting what lightening can do or where it will go within a building. There is one fairly reliable way to stop it from traveling and that is to install whole panel surge protectors on all the panels in a building. In the booths that had whole panel surge protectors installed we never lost a single piece of gear. But I did see failed surge protectors at several sites I replaced.

Note that you do need an extra three pole breaker for any of these surge protectors.


 

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Posted by Ioannis Syrogiannis (Member # 3235) on 08-26-2019, 03:21 AM:
 
If I may turn this thread a bit backwards, to the update subject, does anyone know of key software versions, that would be preferable for one to go through, in an incremental update?
Some companies keep such key step versions in their release notes. Others don't. I can't find anything in the NEC's latest release notes.
I came upon some "forgotten" NEC (NC900 mostly) projectors that are in the same booth but with different software versions.
I'd like to update them, but with long-time-no-update equipment my experience taught me to be extra cautious.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-26-2019, 09:37 AM:
 
There is only one version of each presently shown on the NEC FTP site.

Software: 2.6.7-0

Firmware: 4.6.6-D

Security: 6.1.133-0
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-26-2019, 11:17 AM:
 

quote: Marcel Birgelen

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There are UPS systems that run everything through their batteries and hence a separate transformers, but those are usually only employed in datacenters and hospitals.

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Thats a regenerative type UPS and it's the type I used at all my install sites. I just never ran the xenon supply off them because they become really costly when you get to that size. The type I used is like this one in the link, except I used all 220 volt UPS's and it ran all projector related items except the Xenon LVPS. You can run an entire NC-900 with IMS off one as long as you run the projector on 220 volts. Max draw is only ~8 amps.

Tripplite On Line UPS
 

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Posted by Ioannis Syrogiannis (Member # 3235) on 08-26-2019, 11:22 AM:
 
Thank you for your response Mark!

From what I gather, you are referring to the Server's update versions.
I am mostly interested on the projector's software versions, that were discussed before in the thread (even though, admittedly, the title of the thread is "NEC NC900 IMS").

More than that, I am afraid that if the NEC FTP site keeps only the latest of the projector's firmware/software/Release Package, or the latest two, as it might seem to do, that don't quite means that an update from, say, a Release Package issued back on Q/4 2013 or mid-2016 to the current 4.314 would work flawlessly.

For that reason, and since I would like to take advantage from whatever advancements were made during the last three or six years, I am trying to establish the safest way, if one of you could share.
Documentation I found on NEC didn't shed any light on the issue and I was wondering if someone here might enlighten me.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-26-2019, 11:52 AM:
 
Oh, thats very different. NEC has everything back to version 1. Although the sites I service got all the major NEC updates I never had trouble jumping ahead on NEC firmware. Just make sure you use the matching DCC for each update. You can mess up the projector if using an old DCC to update to a lot newer firmware version. The TI part of it for the ICP is written by TI and not NEC. So depending on what TI versions you are at... if it's really early, you might want to cycle through those releases going foreward to 4.312.

Also: In the projector firmware section there were a lot of updates done to the lamp ballasts and lamp cooling fan controling. Those improvements are important if using version 2 lamps.



Mark
 

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Posted by Ioannis Syrogiannis (Member # 3235) on 08-27-2019, 09:49 AM:
 
Thank you again Mark for your response.

So, according the version table, you suggest, if I want to play it safe, to go (for instance for the machine with 4.208, that was October 2013, if you can believe it) first to 4.310, where the ICP software changed from 4.2 to 4.5 and then to the latest 4.314. And all that with the latest DCC, being 5.1.8.10 for both upgrades, right?
Or, maybe, since between the 4.208 and 4.314 there is no other ICP version in between, go from one to another in one and only step?

Regarding the DCC software, if I understand it correctly, you don't suggest to use different versions for different Release Packages, when you write "use the matching DCC", but "no earlier issued DCC than the Release Package you are about to install".
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-27-2019, 10:04 AM:
 
That shold work fine. The rest of the changes will automatically be applied when you run 4.312. Just be sure to use the LATEST version of DCC 5.1.8.6 when you are updating.

I ran an update back about 2011 once with a firmware version that was quite a bit newer than the DCC I had and it reset the projector IP to 0.0.0.0!

Mark
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-27-2019, 10:16 AM:
 
I would probably try to go to one of the later 4.2x versions first (most actual NC900 improvements incl. lamps/lamp supplies happened there). I think not much happened after 4.219 projector wise. Then go to 4.3/ICP4.5 from there. Should be safe to go from 4.208 any later 4.2 version. The auto updater is pretty safe, and it goes without fuzz and pretty quickly.

Ioannis - what the hell are you doing on Iceland now?

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Ioannis Syrogiannis (Member # 3235) on 08-27-2019, 10:34 AM:
 

quote: Carsten Kurz

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Ioannis - what the hell are you doing on Iceland now?

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