Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Apocolypse Now: Final Cut Poor 4K Presentation

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Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 08-27-2019, 02:14 PM:

I went to see the DCP presentation of Apocalypse Now: Final Cut at the Alamo Draft House in Yonkers last week. There was a snipe before the feature indicating that it was being presented on a Sony 4K projector. Quite honestly, the presentation sucked. The black levels were poor (varying degrees of grey, never got to black), and the colors seemed washed out for the first half of the movie. Very anemic bass sound, but that I suspect was just the equipment at the venue.

My question is, was the projector mis-calibrated, was the projector incapable of producing a reasonable black level, or was the DCP just poorly mastered? I vaguely remember complaints here a few years ago regarding poor black levels for 4K presentations, but this is the first time I have seen this to the extent that it hurt the presentation. Most 2K/4K theatrical presentations I have seen over the last few years actually looked very good. This was the first that made we wish I had stayed home and waited for the Bluray.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 08-27-2019, 02:57 PM:

Chances are it could be all three of those things. Ill reach out to a friend who is suppose to see this and see what his experience is.

Posted by Ed Gordon (Member # 10866) on 08-27-2019, 03:53 PM:

I don't have any answers, but I do have a question. Was this a DCP or was it streaming via the Nagra MyCinema box?

I found old posts related to Apocalype Now and MyCinema, and it looks like this was being streamed.

Old posts:

Apocalypse Now Final Cut Gear
http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=003756#000000

Nagra MyCinema
http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f16/t003757.html

Links:

https://apocalypsenowfinalcut.com/showtimes-%26-locations

https://www.mycinema.live/

If anyone in the Seattle area has contacts at the Cinerama, they could tell us what was shown at the Seattle Cinerama back in May.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-27-2019, 03:54 PM:

@Mitchel: Did you notice the same poor black levels during preshow as well?

Sonys are known for all sorts of things on this forum, but not for poor black level.

How do you know this presentation was actually run as a DCP?

- Carsten

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 08-27-2019, 05:55 PM:

If it was streamed than that could definitely be a big reason as to why it looked poor.

Posted by Cristopher Elie (Member # 10418) on 08-27-2019, 06:39 PM:

Hey Mitchell, I'm really sorry about that! I'm the projection manager at the Yonkers Alamo, so I hate to hear it, but it looks like this falls at my feet. I only lurk on the forum from time to time but my friend sent me this way today. I have a few explanations/clarifications I can offer. I do really hate it when anyone's presentation experience is ruined though, my bad. It's no excuse for bad presentation, but we've been so swamped with the 35mm run of OUaTiH that I haven't had as much time as usual to keep a close eye on the other theaters and I haven't had a chance to watch through all of Apocalypse Now myself.

So to clear it up, your show was indeed a 4K DCP on a 4K projector. According to the Sony contract, that snipe actually only indicates that it's a presentation coming from a 4K projector, so it actually has to play on 2K content too, but not in this case. The snipe doesn't play on alt content like 35mm or blu-ray.

Your show was either in theater 2 or 3, so I'll take a close look at those two projectors to try and see if anything's wrong. Those are both Sony 515s, but from the issues you mentioned I initially assumed you saw it in Theater 1 because they sound like Sony 320 problems. I'm actually generally really happy with the 515s and it seems to me like Sony's bad reputation mainly comes from 220s and 320s, who don't tend to light super evenly and have wonky blacks. I'll double check those two screens for sure, but it would surprise me if there were something wrong with the colors on the projector unless there were something seriously broken with the optics. I really trust the picture of the 515s a lot. The 515s have halogen lamps that have a relatively cool and even color temperature, but they do get a little bright, so the blacks aren't perfect, but generally they're pretty good. One other possible contributing factor is that theater 2 is a silver screen, so that wouldn't have helped if you saw it there.

As for the sound, that was the main thing I was checking for in my tech screening, and I decided to play it on the loud side of normal since it's a war movie. In fact we've been getting a few complaints about how loud it is, but I think it's appropriate so I kept it where it is.

We actually just did a full EQ of all our theaters about 2 months ago, and I haven't messed with the levels, so the bass should be exactly to spec. We also did colorspace and foot-lamberts during the same tech, so I'd hope they haven't drifted, but it's definitely more likely for optics than sound.

So as much as I'd like to/lean toward placing the blame on the DCP, I'll report back to you when I get back to work the day after tomorrow. Sorry again about the show though.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-29-2019, 11:45 AM:

It is indeed very nice to see a theatre manager chiming in and apologising, well done!

That said, allow me a little comment, in an all-constructive spirit.

quote: Cristopher Elie
The 515s have halogen lamps that have a relatively cool and even color temperature, but they do get a little bright, so the blacks aren't perfect, but generally they're pretty good.

515's can run with 1 to 6 lamps. Unless your screen are the size of a TV, it is very difficult to have too much brightness with those machines as you can fine tune the brightness to match the standard.
Contrast ratio is also usually quite high on those machines and you'd really need to set the brightness VERY high (I'd say 30-40fL) before you can start noticing a poor black level.

I suppose you have your projectors properly serviced once a year - that includes Gamma and Uniformity adjustment as long as cleaning of the optics. Just setting the colours won't be enough with those nice machines.

Regarding the sound, I am not familiar with your sound system but EQ and sound levels are not per se enough to guarantee a great sound experience unfortunately.

Thanks!

Posted by Jerry Axelsson (Member # 3175) on 08-29-2019, 11:52 AM:

Saw this new version of Apocalypse Now Final Cut in 4K this past summer in Bologna Italy. Open-air screening on a large screen. Looked and sounded great like it was shot yesterday!

Posted by Elia Orselli (Member # 4673) on 08-30-2019, 01:46 AM:

quote:
Open-air screening on a large screen. Looked and sounded great like it was shot yesterday!

Really happy to hear this: I'm one of the installers of the projection setup [Smile]

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 08-30-2019, 02:54 PM:

Hi Cristopher,

I saw it on Wednesday 8/21/2019 at the 6pm show. It was in theatre 2. It's a long drive from Northwestern NJ, so I have high expectations.

In any event, I was at the Ziegfeld 70mm reserved seat screenings in 1979, and the one thing I remember is the awesome subsonics. You could feel the helicopters, mortars, and bombs in your chest. The theatre shook. The prior Bluray recreated that, knocking the dust off my home sub base cabinets. I realize theatre sound mixing is a different animal, but I have heard some really impressive digital theatrical sound in the last few years. However, the sound was not really a complaint, but the picture issues definitely are.

I have been to a number of your 35mm presentations over the last few years, and most have had no issues. I was at the first Saturday matinee of OUATIH on July 27th, and the projection was perfect. I am still somewhat miffed that because I went to the bathroom before the start, your staffed skipped over me when they gave out the souvenir film strips. I did not find out about them until we were on our way home and my friends mentioned they got one.

In any event, thank you for keeping 35mm alive.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 08-30-2019, 09:06 PM:

Just wanted to say props to the theater manager chiming in here. Cheers. You don't see that everyday.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-01-2019, 11:13 PM:

They were giving film clips away? Dare I ask, what was that about...is someone cutting up film prints?

Posted by Cristopher Elie (Member # 10418) on 09-02-2019, 06:35 PM:

Ok, let's see what I can address here. All of the lamps in Theater 2 are (and were at the time) within warranty hours and functioning normally. Because of the harsh dropoff on that silver screen, I bump them up a bit higher than spec, so that the screen is about 18 FL in the center and 10 on the edges. I hate silver screens, and I suspect that a lot of the visual issues you had may be associated with that screen itself.

Just did a pink noise test in 2, and all of the speakers are at reference level, including the subs. So since we were playing the movie at reference on a QSC DCP-100, and the speakers were calibrated at reference, I think that's as good as we can get with that DCP.

We have our projectors serviced 4 times a year, but it doesn't include gamma and uniformity since our technicians don't have a PCAB. So we do a gamma and uniformity adjustment on an as-needed basis since we have to spend hundreds of dollars bringing in a Sony technician and thusly may end up having to replace a T-Core/Optical Block.

I still haven't gotten the time to watch through the movie (it's hard to get up early enough or stay up late enough to watch a 3 hour movie when there isn't anything else running in the theater), but I'd like to check it out.

The "film strips" were just a promotional thing with images from the film and an Alamo logo printed on a piece of plastic that... resembled 35mm stock. We gave away most of them, but I just asked one of the managers and he said he'll try and dig one up for you if you like!

Posted by Michael Kurtzke (Member # 7512) on 09-02-2019, 07:10 PM:

Our print had the black levels crushed during dark scenes. Also the Atmos track dropped out in R3, reverting back to 5.1 for the remainder of the reel, but that could just be our copy.

Bright scenes look damn good. Overall it's the best print of the film I've seen.

As for the LFE, it seems like there isn't much at all... The highest I saw it get to was -21db in QSYS. This print also does not use LC/RC from what I could tell.

That room's LFE will kick your butt if it wants to, so I bet Cris' room is set up just fine audio wise.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-05-2019, 07:53 AM:

quote:
The "film strips" were just a promotional thing with images from the film and an Alamo logo printed on a piece of plastic that... resembled 35mm stock. We gave away most of them, but I just asked one of the managers and he said he'll try and dig one up for you if you like!

Ah, that is good news, Cristopher -- the hair on the back of my head (the only place there's hair nowadays) stands up whenever I hear of people offering film frames; there was a wave of that going on on ebay a few years ago where these thugs would buy prints for the film collector's community under the ruse of been collectors themselves and then they'd cut them up, frame by frame and sell them as "original frames from the actual movie."

As for the generous offer, I certainly won't turn it down, but only if it is an easy "do."

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-05-2019, 08:14 AM:

quote:
The "film strips" were just a promotional thing with images from the film and an Alamo logo printed on a piece of plastic that... resembled 35mm stock. We gave away most of them, but I just asked one of the managers and he said he'll try and dig one up for you if you like!

Ah, that is good news, Cristopher -- the hair on the back of my head (the only place there's hair nowadays) stands up whenever I hear of people offering film frames or "cells." There was a wave of that going on on ebay a few years ago where these thugs would buy film prints from members of the film collector's community under the ruse of been collectors themselves, but then they'd cut them up, frame by frame and sell them as "original 'cells' from the actual movie."

As for the generous offer of that promo piece, I certainly won't turn it down, but only if it is an easy "do."

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 09-05-2019, 11:04 PM:

quote:
In any event, I was at the Ziegfeld 70mm reserved seat screenings in 1979,

So was I and it sounded phenomenal, but they added extra b-chain equipment just for that run, similar to what they did for the original run of Close Encounters. I don't know if it was the same equipment as for CEOTTK, but for that film, they bolted the screen speakers to 3/4" plywood fronts (same as THX did later), added 8 Cerwin Vega Baby Earthquake speakers and used 21 Bose 901 surrounds (although I don't think the surrounds were added - that was part of the original multichannel surround system that the Ziegfeld).

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 09-09-2019, 04:27 PM:

> We gave away most of them, but I just asked one of the managers and he said he'll try and dig one up for you if you like!

Sure, I would like.

Much Thanks,
/Mitchell