Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Used Projectors, what are they worth?

This is topic Used Projectors, what are they worth? in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 09-04-2019, 08:35 PM:

Been curious, how robust is the used projector market, what are these things worth after a few years? Basic depreciated book value or almost nothing. Saw a couple 6 or 7 year old NEC 900 C's today that probably aren't any good to me (never seen or even heard about these little guys before). I have no idea what they cost new, how much life is left in them, I'm just a guy who owns a theatre. Then again, the people that have them have zero use and zero idea whether they are worth anything other than as boat anchors, so I'd like to help.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-04-2019, 11:23 PM:

Highly dependent on the type of machine, age and usage. So, not easy to give a concrete answer to that question I think.

I don't know your write-off scheme, which may also be legally limited or maybe you have a certain business strategy in your write-offs that doesn't align with market value, but even a projector that's been in use for 10 years doesn't have zero value on the market, as long as it's still in good condition.

Series 2 machines are still highly sought after and I think that there might be a market coming for the high-end home cinema enthusiasts that do want proper DCI machines.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-04-2019, 11:36 PM:

I've got a vintage Kodak Ektra 35mm rangefinder camera in my collection.

https://www.cameraquest.com/ektra.htm

It's a pretty rare camera. It's in working condition and I've got all the accessories that go with it.

Supposedly, the body, by itself is worth up to $1,000. With all the lenses and accessories, it could be worth twice that or more.

So, what's it ACTUALLY worth?

It's not worth a single cent unless I can find some schmuck who is willing to part with two grand.

Every once in a blue moon, I take it out and shoot a roll of film with it... mainly because it's such a damn cool camera NOT to use it once in a while.

The main problem with selling it is to find somebody who knows what it is, appreciates it for rare find that it is and, presumably knows how to use it.

It's a rangefinder camera, not and SLR. Many people who know about traditional photography only know SLRs and wouldn't know the first thing about a rangefinder camera.

So, the population of people who would even be interested in such a camera is a lot smaller than the number of people who would be interested in traditional photography, at all.

If anybody did end up buying the camera from me, it would probably end up on a shelf, some place, collecting dust. I'm satisfied to keep it and use it, on occasion. Somebody who wanted to buy it would have to convince me that they are genuinely interested in the camera for what it is and not just something to add to their collection of junk.

I'd say that virtually the same goes with movie projectors, film or digital.

The population of people who would be interested to buy it is small and the number of people who would fork out the money is even smaller.

Regardless of what you think it's worth or what some book says it's worth, it only really worth what you can get somebody to give you for it.

Bottom line: Probably not very much.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-05-2019, 05:46 AM:

NEC 900C are still very useful and fully supported. Depending on details (internal server?), they would probably sell for something between 5000 and 15.000 US$ each.

Koroye would be happy for one at that price level.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-05-2019, 07:39 AM:

Among my customers there are 35 of the 34 that I installed which are still running. Yep! Thats right! I didn't install the 35th one. Six that I installed are among the very first NC-900's sold in the USA. They had some lamp problems at first, but they redsigned the lamp and it's now very reliable. Kelmar manufactures a couple of nifty inexpensive pedetals for the NC-900 and I know MIT has a more deluxe pedestal.

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 09-05-2019, 10:21 AM:

That certainly looks more substantial a set up than where I've just seen these, believe it or not used for 45 and 56 foot drive-in screens. Now their NEC 3200S with 6k lamp for the 90 foot screen is certainly likely "legit" and marketable, maybe, but again, just not sure there's anyone that needs 'em. I can't power the big one on single-phase, so no use for it. Guess I'll see how close to "salvage" I get on the others, no current use for 'em other than some sort of "screens 3 and 4 "blanket and chair" screens, but really I'm hoping to build screen 2 for cars. I've seen it, that's what they were doing with them, just couldn't do it myself, couldn't have been a great presentation.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 09-05-2019, 12:56 PM:

I serviced those projectors. They're all in decent shape, stored over the winters in a heated dry offsite facility. All have GDC SX3000 servers. Dubious that the NC900 was a good choice for a drive-in but they used them for several years. Not bright images for sure but apparently acceptable.
Not sure about what they'll sell for but there is a lot of interest in them so they won't go super cheap.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-05-2019, 02:55 PM:

That could mean they have long-throw lenses? The NC900 is the only S2K projector with a long-throw lens.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 09-05-2019, 08:25 PM:

Yes, long focal length lenses.
And - most if not all projectors have long lenses available. Barco certainly does: they aren't in the list when telling the projector what lens you have or as accessories in the spec sheet, and they say "WXGA" or something on the barrel rather than "digital cinema" but they have identical mounts and work fine. You just need to pick a lens from the same manufacturer so the projector uses the correct focus/zoom motor voltage. There are also non-motorized really long lenses available. I have seen Christies in DIs too, but I didn't study the lenses.

Posted by Koroye Seitonkumo (Member # 10558) on 09-05-2019, 09:43 PM:

I will certainly be interested in some nc900 at a good price

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 09-07-2019, 02:39 AM:

quote: Dave Macaulay
I have seen Christies in DIs too, but I didn't study the lenses.

One of the drive-ins in our state has a Christie. Its output seems fairly comparable to our Barcos.

At the time, we didn't consider Christies because of the cost of their "disposable" air filters... something like $200 or so.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-07-2019, 08:46 AM:

NEC also uses disposable air filters. But you can get two types. True Hepa filters fomr NEC and the sost is similar to replacing the Christie filters. Or you can get the cheap Chinese filters fomr other suppliers for about $50 a projector. The cheap filters do not work nearly as well and if you are in a DI or very dusty area I reccomend putting foam tape around the edge of the cheapo filters so they seal to the projector frame better and don't allow air leakage. I would never use a non filtered projector in any DI situation period. I have seen Christies and Barco's in Drive ins and there is always so much dust in them taht I can write my name in it.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-07-2019, 08:58 AM:

I like that idea. Simply the more personal approach than a dumb company sticker.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 09-07-2019, 09:10 AM:

Not so sure the $$$ NEC filters are HEPA, but they are good. Strong filters are pretty poor. Gabo filters are better than Strong and cheaper than NEC.
The Barco metal filters work quite well, letting through really tiny particles though. I do not know the perforation size.
Barco light engines are sealed so dust can't get into the DMDs. If the lens seal is in place you will get some powdery dust on the prism exit and lens rear element in an environment that has super fine dust, like a typical DI. Otherwise it really doesn't cause trouble. The lamp optics do get unfiltered air so the mirrors need to be cleaned regularly.
Christie projectors except the 2210 type have very good "LAD" filters for the fan blowing filtered air over the DMD faces and prism input faces, they don't get much contamination there. Like Barco, the lamp air is unfiltered.
NEC filters the lamp air on larger projectors, I'm not sure about the 900/1000.
None filter the LPS cooling air as far as I know. I have blown out Barco LPS modules only once, where the projectors were installed in a new concrete floored booth that had not had the floor sealed. Not a good plan by the way.
There are always pros and cons between projector designs. NEC has no supernatural advantage over the others.
Definitely, NEC service manuals are the worst by a HUGE margin.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2019, 01:17 PM:

Thanks Carsten. I laughed real well on that one [Big Grin]

Both Strong and MIT have varied their filters over the years/months so there is no consistency with them. The current MIT ones have fewer pleats than NEC filters which indicates less surface area to catch the dirt...so plan on changing them more often. As Mark indicates, most/all of the knockoffs don't fit as well as the OEM.

I prefer disposable filters and think Barco has taken the wrong approach with the metal mesh ones. Gabo's metal mesh are better in most ways in that it is one large filter rather than individual filters that do get damaged more easily. Gabo's assembly method is glue, however and they can/do separate.

I'm thinking in particularly dusty environments (and any projector near the entrance of the booth since it will be sucking all of the popcorn soot up), to pre-filter the projector. Add an additional set up "register" filter(s) to the intakes. If they turn grey, change them. You can normally hold them on with velcro too.

NEC does NOT use what I would call a "HEPA" filter. What Barco used on series 1 projectors, those were HEPA filters and crazy expensive too.

Christie, on the original series 1 projectors (CP2000S) had a nice rubber seal around the filters that does better than the non-sealing cardboard. The LAD filters are still rubber seals.

Christie doesn't filter their lamp section so expect the intake blower to be impacted and the sail-switch to grow whiskers over time.

And yes, everyone seems to let the LPS (LPSU) fend for themselves with Barco hiding their LPS intake louvers under the projector (C series). If you have a UPS system on the Barco, the LPS typically runs 24/7 drawing that dirt up. You'd think they could have put in a mode that if the control circuit stops communicating, go into an ECO mode and shut the fans off! Then again, you'd think that if the 220V power wasn't on, the control system would alert the user that the power is missing on the LPS. But I digress.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 09-07-2019, 04:52 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I would never use a non filtered projector in any DI situation period. I have seen Christies and Barco's in Drive ins and there is always so much dust in them taht I can write my name in it.

We understood that when we bought our Barcos.

Our drive-in is a dust bowl during the summer. We dealt with that by dumping the heat from all 3 machines directly into the booth, then removing it with a couple of 6-ton Mitsubishi split ACs. There is no meaningful air exchange with the outside, except what might get in when we open the door.

What dust does get into the booth is very fine and washes out of the microscreen filters with one annual trip to the sink.

Our filter cost is zero. We do pay for the cost of purchasing and running the AC, but everything else in the booth, including me, benefits from that.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-08-2019, 11:59 AM:

I have one custmer that did almost exactly what you did right down to using the Mits air units and it does help, but HVAC units don't eliminate the dust completely unless they also have Heppa filters on them... or some sort of electrostatic dust removal. Even with his Mits units and only opening the door to go in or out he still has to replace the filters on the NEC once a season, and his season is only four months. But he is literally in a dust bowl with sandstone bluffs on at elast two sides.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-09-2019, 09:23 AM:

Besides dust from the outside finding its way in, remember that one of the biggest sources of dust, after dirt, debris and pollen from outside are humans themselves, as in, dead skin... As long as you have humans working in there, you'll always have dust. We're dusty creatures by nature...

Posted by Bruce Cloutier (Member # 9615) on 09-09-2019, 11:05 AM:

I wonder if monitoring air flow (CFM) through the projectors and/or temperature rise from ambient to exhaust might not help as an indication as to when filters need to be changed/cleaned? Both would be easy to accomplish.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-09-2019, 06:33 PM:

Projectors already monnitor both of those among the many monitored temps...

Mark

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 09-09-2019, 07:02 PM:

Our booth is the nicest place to be all summer, we have ductless a/c but also a fairly good sized exhaust on the 23B. Room is sealed up pretty well, no dust to speak of, a few bugs usually and just some heat discoloration on the metal filters really, 6 years in.

I'm curious Dave, is there any kind of used market at all in Canada? These were the first ones I'd seen. It's too bad to see the place go, but land was worth much more. Good people there, and a much better business needing more of their time by the sounds of it.