Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Dolby Vision Cinema 1.85 & trailers

This is topic Dolby Vision Cinema 1.85 & trailers in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Tom Tomlinson (Member # 703) on 10-12-2019, 10:28 AM:

Seeing Joker on opening day was curious why the trailers shown before were all "shrunk down to the middle of the screen. basically all window boxed.--varying between 185 & 239 trailers.
Now seeing Gemini @ 120fps--saw the same thing at a different dolby theatre --here in NYC--- .It seems the common height screens are not masked for 1.85--
--ok---but why am I seeing what I am seeing with the trailers?
Don't recall seeing it with all the scope dolby vision movies I have seen.

thanks for your replies

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-12-2019, 11:26 AM:

All trailers come in flat and scope formats. The scope version of flat feature trailers is pillarboxed to fit in the scope frame, the flat version of scope feature trailers is letterboxed to fit in the flat frame.
It seems they managed to pick the wrong version of scope trailers if they were both letterboxed and pillarboxed, a scope trailer for a scope feature should fill the scope screen. "Scope in flat" trailers will always show pillarboxed in scope. Nobody I know switches formats to show trailers in their native feature format.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-12-2019, 03:15 PM:

quote: Dave Macaulay
Nobody I know switches formats to show trailers in their native feature format.

And so now we have gone back to the days of "Film Done Wrong", where many theatres (*cough AMC cough*) ran flat trailers in front of scope features using the scope lens and aperture plates.... [Roll Eyes]

While I will concede that digital HAS resulted in improvements in presentation quality over the run of a feature, the long standing problem of lazy or incompetent booth operations remains an issue.

Really, how hard is it to add a few format change cues to a playlist? I did it all the time with the screening rooms I set up, and even built "trailer templates" where it was a simple operation (Dolby DSS 200).

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 10-12-2019, 04:08 PM:

For several years the predominate format has been scope. Lately we started seeing more flat formatted features which will fill up the common width screens. But the trailers....
Sometimes when a playlist is made the individual building the list will have a "scope" mindset and inadvertently put scope trailers on a flat movie. This results in a trailer to another flat movie appearing pillarboxed and letterboxed on a flat feature.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-12-2019, 05:25 PM:

That flat vs. scope domination issue seems to be an everlasting mystery. I maintain an Excel file for all movies we show. While we are far from showing all movies that are released, we play a 'regular' mix of international blockbuster/mainstream as well as international arthouse, kids movies and documentaries. When I look at the aspect ratio column in that file, I always have to scroll one way or the other to find a flat feature. Taking a quick overview seems to suggest that flat/16:9 is prominent for documentary and low budget, plus some kids movies that have a clear streaming and DVD/Bluray destination. Then there is the occasional arthouse flic where flat has very obviously been chosen deliberately. Followed by the occasional 2.0:1 or 2.2:1 outlier.

Scope is very clearly the dominant format in todays cinema.

While I assume that something went wrong in that Dolby Cinema location, I could sympathize with someone showing all trailers, both flat and scope, 'smaller' than the main feature. At least on a screen with an excellent black level as Dolby Cinema features.

I mean, how many cinemas play trailers with the lights half or even fully up?

- Carsten

Posted by Tom Tomlinson (Member # 703) on 10-12-2019, 08:18 PM:

thanks again for the replies.
I just find it odd to notice it happening at the 2 top dolby locations here in NYC --a week apart. None of the trailers matched the size image of the feature-- projecting the 185 width "properly" on the wider screen. It was almost like the trailers were all from a separate projector----but the image wasn't soft --just small--too small. My vantage point didn't allow me to look at the porthole.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-12-2019, 08:41 PM:

These days it can't be surprising the formats of movie trailers would be goofed up, even in premium priced screen within a high profile theater location (like Manhattan).

So many people just don't understand the concept of aspect ratio. And that's pretty strange, given the general public has never before been exposed to as many shapes and sizes of movie screens, tv screens, computer monitors, phone displays and other kinds of electronic displays as we have in use today.

Content gets goofed up because details aren't important.

I see so many commercials on TV shown window-boxed. You'll have a commercial originally produced in HD, but the local TV station or cable network is given a letter-boxed SD copy of it so it can be broadcast with pillars. Hence the window-boxed result. This problem is also very common on YouTube. Why does this shit still persist? How many people are still using old, square-ish SD TV sets as their primary television? It's almost the year 2020. You have to go out of your way to buy a 4:3 computer monitor, but it's easy to get a monitor in 16:9 ratio, one in CinemaScope 21:9 ratio or even an extreme wide 32:9 monitor. It would be a hell of a thing to have a 32:9 computer monitor and then watch some asshole's vertical mobile phone video on it.

Of course vertical video is another plague of stupid. Along with the window-boxed commercials you'll see on TV the local newscast is infected with witness account videos shot vertically. YouTube is also overrun with that crap. Maybe electronics companies will start selling vertical 9:16 ratio TV sets to play that kind of content. Incorporate the 9:16 TV set into the door of a refrigerator. That can bring TV viewing at home to a more "pure" level. Place the recliner in front of the refrigerator TV set to make the sedentary obesity process even more efficient.

quote: Carsten Kurz
Scope is very clearly the dominant format in todays cinema.

Yeah, and it's technically the lowest quality format since it has the lowest pixel count. It's a digital version of TechniScope.

quote: Carsten Kurz
I mean, how many cinemas play trailers with the lights half or even fully up?

I'm seeing that sin more and more. Plus they'll also bring up the house lights partially or even all the way as soon as the end credits begin -I guess as a clue for us all to GTFO.

Posted by Tom Tomlinson (Member # 703) on 10-12-2019, 09:07 PM:

thanks again for the replies.
I just find it odd to notice it happening at the 2 top dolby locations here in NYC --a week apart. None of the trailers matched the size image of the feature-- projecting the 185 width "properly" on the wider screen. It was almost like the trailers were all from a separate projector----but the image wasn't soft --just small--too small. My vantage point didn't allow me to look at the porthole.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 10-14-2019, 05:51 PM:

Theres just no accountability for this type of stuff. It shows that whoever is in charge to get it right either doesn't care or is ignorant to the fact.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 10-16-2019, 11:52 PM:

I saw the same thing when I saw Joker at the Dolby theater. The feature was 1.85 projected full height on the 2.4 AR screen (no masking, but it wasn't noticeable). But the trailers were window boxed.

It didn't appear to me that this was the fault of the projectionist. I think this was the fault of whoever prepared the trailers unless the theater simply downloaded the wrong versions since it's rare that the Dolby theater gets a 1.85 feature - this was the first one I saw.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-17-2019, 04:07 AM:

Let me get this straight. The native ratio of the screen is 2.39:1? (Common Height).

The Feature was "Flat" (1.85) so it would be pillar boxed. They would likely show the "Flat" version of all trailers of which those that are Scope ratio movies would indeed show as letterboxed within a pillarboxed image.

If Masking was used (as it always should be), would it have then looked normal? Or where you thrown by that you knew there was dead screen on the left/right in addition to dead screen top and bottom. If that is the case, it was the lack of masking that is what is wrong rather than the wrong version of the trailer is shown.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 10-24-2019, 11:09 PM:

Except that IIRC, some of the trailers were 1.85 and still window boxed. Everything else I've sever seen on that screen has been projected full height.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-25-2019, 10:06 PM:

In a common height theater (with a correct 'scope ratio screen) any flat trailers should only be shown pillar-boxed. I just don't see any excuse for window-box treatment. That's just really bad, gutter-trash, YouTube random upload presentation quality there.

I don't even understand why this is so difficult. It's not like the booth guys are having to manually build up a 35mm film print with cue tapes for lens changes and what not. But, hell, back in the day it seemed more dependable for flat trailers to be shown flat and the 'scope stuff to be shown in 'scope.

When our old Carmike 8 location was open they usually built up film prints with flat trailers and TV commercial spam on the front end in 1.85:1 format. If the feature was in 'scope there would then be a lens change. The masking moved out. Then the "attached" 'scope format trailers would play. After that would be the last Carmike policy snipe, then DTS boom-wah-blam and THX ka-pow. Then the feature would play. All that had to be built up manually back then. Today it's nothing more than dragging and dropping together a playlist that is fundamentally no different that what you program into your phone before going out for a morning run. If theaters are goofing up this bad I can't help but wonder if their first choice of new employee hires is from Department of Corrections. Or maybe today's new breed of geometrically challenged idiots can't tell the difference between the vertical rectangular shape of a door and the horizontal rectangular shape of a TV screen or theater screen. Damn, we Americans suck ass these days.