Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Jaws at Cinesphere, IMAX Laser and 4K DCP

This is topic Jaws at Cinesphere, IMAX Laser and 4K DCP in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Chuck Kahn (Member # 11036) on 10-13-2019, 11:22 AM:

I saw Jaws (1975) at the Cinesphere IMAX Laser theatre in Toronto last weekend. It looked really good. Maybe it was cropped on the sides. I didn't bring screen grabs but the ratio seemed stunted. Regardless it looked really good. So on the strength of that presentation I bought tickets for two more non-IMAX presentations at Cinesphere this weekend -- Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989) and Conan the Barbarian (1982).

Ontario Place, which houses the Cinesphere, tweeted a reply to my question about this weekend's movie presentations: "Non-IMAX are all 4K DCP. Last Crusade and Conan included."

But from the moment I saw the opening Paramount logo in Last Crusade and the shimmering titles that followed, I doubted this claim. After the screening, Ron the projectionist confirmed that Last Crusade was a 2K DCP, as would be Conan, and that Jaws was a 4K DCP.

So my questions are:

1) Is there a list that confirms what movies are available to Cinesphere (and everyone else) as 4K DCP? So that when they say Last Crusade is 4K I can check the list and confirm.

2) Is there a list of 4K screens in Toronto? There's Cinesphere. TIFF Lightbox has three 4K screens I think. What about Cineplex and the rep cinemas?

3) If Jaws 4K DCP can look that good on an IMAX Laser projector, is there a point to "enhanced for IMAX" releases anymore? If a 4K DCP of Apocalypse Now Final Cut were screened side-by-side with the IMAX version, what would the difference be? Is it just the 12-channel audio that's different or do IMAX enhanced releases have rec.2020 or some other feature not present in 4k DCPs? (I have no idea whether 4K DCPs are rec.2020 capable, I'm just throwing that out there.)

Posted by Chuck Kahn (Member # 11036) on 10-22-2019, 12:29 PM:

Well according to this document, the Jaws DCP is 2K. So Ron the projectionist was misinformed.

http://www.deluxecdn.com/dcinema//projectionistletter/projectionistletter_universal_2019_flashback_cinema_combo_usa_20190217_104126.pdf

Are DCPs ever updated when new 4K transfers come out? I see Back to the Future was announced for a 4K Blu-ray release for next year but will the DCP in circulation to theatres still be the 2K one?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-22-2019, 03:53 PM:

A lot of 4K home video is nothing more than uprezed 2K. One has to pay attention (and it can be difficult even then) to know if the 4K home release was really sourced from 4K.

Posted by Chuck Kahn (Member # 11036) on 10-22-2019, 04:02 PM:

True, probably 90% in the Digital Intermediate-era of the past 17 years would be finished in 2K so a 4K home video release doesn't have that much to work with. (Save Sony releases that prioritize 4K finishes.)

But 35mm finishes of Universal Pictures from 1975 and 1985 like Jaws and Back to the Future aren't encumbered by DI limitations and their restorations scan the original camera negative producing a true 4K master. So why isn't Universal upgrading their 2K DCPs to 4K when these 35mm 4K restorations are done? The Cinesphere's Laser-projected 80 foot screen would be an ideal showcase for this 4K upgrade.

JAWS_FTR-51_S_EN-XX_US-PG_51_2K_UP_20120404_UDS_0V

BACKTOTHEFUTUR_FTR-1_F_EN-XX_INT-TD_51_2K_UP_20100820_UDS_OV

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-22-2019, 05:20 PM:

It is sometimes difficult to understand why a DCP is not created at 4k. For a while, even Sony 4k releases have been rare. Then some countries saw the same movie in 4k regularly, while others saw 2k only. The two CPLs you quote have been done in 2010 and 2012.

2010 was probably to early for 4k anyway. Keep in mind, the majority of DCI screens is still 2k, so the incentive to create 4k may still be small.

DCPs do not carry rec.2020. As a matter of fact, the DCP xyz color space is even larger than rec.2020. However, in reality, DCI-P3 is used on actual devices.

Negative scanning is often overestimated. The camera negative usually misses so many postproduction elements that large parts of movies finally consist of a mix of camera negative and postproduction elements, with the different qualities appearing clearly, especially on large screens. Then sometimes it's the other way round, and the camera negative is much worse than elements from later postproduction stages.

All in all, restoration is usually more complicated and diverse than people may think when they hear 'original camera negative scanned'.

- Carsten

Posted by Chuck Kahn (Member # 11036) on 10-23-2019, 12:21 PM:

I don't know if those 2010 and 2012 CPLs were the ones that Cinesphere was using. DDCHelp confirmed that the October 5th Jaws played there was the 2K and they say that only 2K is available.

So DCI-P3 is what the IMAX Laser projector... projects?

I was going by this article regarding the camera negative scan of JAWS:

https://www.pocket-lint.com/tv/news/115138-jaws-blu-ray-new-4k-transfer-restoration

Where they spent five months "using our digital tools and the skilled technicians that we currently have at our disposal, we were able to work on balancing the colour, removing dirt and the remaining scratches, and repairing any film damage on a shot-by-shot, frame-by-frame basis. While always keeping the original intent on the way the film looked."

So I guess it depends on how bad a shape the camera negative is in. If it can still be digitally repaired, that seems preferable than going to later generations. Or scan all the generations and then mix and match from whatever's best.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 10-23-2019, 03:18 PM:

DCI-P3 isn't specific for IMAX, it's the general color space of DCI certified Digital Cinema. So, all general release DCPs are in DCI-P3 and all certified projectors should be able to reproduce that color space.

If the content within a DCP uses the entire color space is something entirely different.

The IMAX laser system should be able to do DCI-P3, actually, it probably exceeds it, but by how much is part of the IMAX secret sauce. It's probably comparable to a Barco 6P setup, since the system is based on Barco laser projectors, but that's speculation on my side.

From what I've personally seen regarding digital film restoration, is that there is no single greatest solution. The best way to a restored digital copy is finding an ideal compromise with what you can get.

In many cases, the OCNs are pretty much taboo, especially if there are other sources available. Why are the OCNs taboo? There is just this one copy...

So, the general route seems to be: Find a reliable source for the correct color grading. That one copy that hasn't faded to pink and then use any other source that's good enough.

Unfortunately, almost no studio consequently made color-separated transfers to black and white negatives of all their releases. One noticeable exception was Disney, that's why they still have perfectly color graded classics. But you're only supposed to see them when the Mouse grants you the sporadic license to see them, which is usually when some executive has a gap to fill somewhere.

Posted by Chuck Kahn (Member # 11036) on 10-24-2019, 10:58 AM:

It's disappointing that there doesn't appear to be an effort by the distributors to update DCPs when new transfers are done. Cinesphere is laser projecting onto an 80-foot screen, probably one of the best theaters in Canada. Yet for the 4K restoration of Jaws all that's available for exhibition is a 2K DCP from 2012. And the restored picture looks great. But why not update it to 4K? On the home video side, Jaws has gone through many many different releases and formats, but the theatrical DCP experience remains unchanged.