Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 4.3 dcp in flat container pillarboxing

This is topic 4.3 dcp in flat container pillarboxing in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Ricardo David (Member # 9308) on 11-07-2019, 10:20 AM:

Hello family,
I am a Portuguese projecionist for about 20 years,but i am having a discution with one portuguese director about maskings in a 4.3 dcp,what happens is i am having pillarboxing ,the projector is on flat container and projects the black bars in the 2.39 screen,so he says i must change the projector to 4.3,the cinema doesnt have any kind of screen masking like curtains,we have the image light with much power because they want to much contrast,the tecnician said to me that the dlp chip always project that image size ,because the digital masking in the projector for croping doesnt help to much because i can see the 2048x1080 container light,what can i do ,can i project only 4.3 image in a dcp 1998x1080 with black bars?, without more light in screen?

Posted by Sascha F. Roll (Member # 9043) on 11-07-2019, 10:25 AM:

Correct, no other way to do it.
Besides: installing proper masking.

Btw, what is especially ridiculous on those unmasked constant height screens: with F-200 or even F-220 content: black bars on all sides and the smallest possible image.

Posted by Ricardo David (Member # 9308) on 11-07-2019, 10:41 AM:

thanks for the help,this guys are in the 35mm age .

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-07-2019, 11:31 AM:

Tell the director that all digital cinema projectors are inherently flat/1.85 projectors (in reality, it's a few pixels more left and right - 2048 vs. 1998). The only way to reduce the side effects of that fact for 4:3 content is to use adjustable/moveable masking on the screen.

With no masking, yes, it won't look pretty on a scope screen - ambient light grey on the left- and rightmost parts of the screen, and 'DLP-grey' on the inner left and right pillarboxed parts neighbouring the 4:3 content. Ugly.

- Carsten

Posted by Ricardo David (Member # 9308) on 11-07-2019, 05:07 PM:

Thanks guys.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-08-2019, 03:33 AM:

If I had a pound for every time I've had this discussion with cinemas and film makers!

Carsten has absolutely hit the nail on the head.

I do tend to setup up 1.85, 1.78, 1.66, 1.375 and 1.33 screen files, so at the very least you don't see the effects of keystone. Thankfully the cinemas I deal with who run a lot of different aspect ratios do ahve fully mobile masking.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-08-2019, 07:09 AM:

I don't set up 1.37 any more. 4x3 (1.33) suffices for both, in my opinion. It is such a crapshoot on how such movies are authored to begin with.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-08-2019, 10:54 AM:

Pete, you should come to germany. I'd be glad here to see just flat and scope being set up properly for the average installation...

- Carsten

Posted by Brian Mendelssohn (Member # 9108) on 11-08-2019, 07:23 PM:

We installed a square screen (fixed width) where we adjust the masking for scope, flat, 1.33, and 1.37. We show a lot of old movies and its amazing when it fills the entire wall for a 1.33

We use a flat DCP file zoomed in then cropped on either side.

Posted by Ricardo David (Member # 9308) on 11-09-2019, 04:59 AM:

Hi,its true,its not the first time to have this discussion too, but, no money to screen masking full auto,so ,its possible to have a masking auto in the projection Windows?
I have tried with old school paper kkk, but its just not right and pratical,because we play diferent movies for sesson.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-09-2019, 08:20 AM:

If you mask on the port glass, it will create a strong vignetting into the visible picture, or have no effect at all, due to projection geometry.

For 4:3, it may be possible to blend the transition of the scope areas into the projection area. That MAY make it more acceptable for the director.

Yes, if you put too much light on the screen, it will make it worse. Are you sure your brightness is around spec? Can you try to lower lamp current for the 4:3 picture? Maybe some measures combined will make it acceptable.

- Carsten

Posted by Ricardo David (Member # 9308) on 11-09-2019, 08:26 AM:

Thanks,today my boss came to the cinema and i just Said that,i Will Turn the light a litle to see it,he was saying that the projector must have masks,what can i say more,the director Said to him that vídeo projectors do 4.3.
Só.
I Guess his projector projects scope too without bars too.😄

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-09-2019, 10:21 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I don't set up 1.37 any more. 4x3 (1.33) suffices for both, in my opinion.

I'm afraid I do, if specifically asked for either; and I will offer 1.19 as well. In that case, I will explain the difference (1.19 - originated on 35mm between 1929-1933 approx.; 1.37 = originated on 35mm between 1933-late 1950s, depending on territory; 1.33 = silent movies originated on 35mm, plus all movies originated on 16mm or smaller, or standard definition video), and ask which lens and screen files the customer would like, or all of them.

Agreed on the mastering issue, though. Consumer (BD and streaming) releases in particular tend to crop 1.37 to 1.33, and sometimes these transfers show up on DCPs. However, if a 1.37 DCP is done properly (1,485 x 1,080 for 2K, as distinct from 1,440 x 1,080 for 1.33), I'd like the end user to be able to play all of it.

1.19 done wrong is a pet peeve of mine. Try watching Sunrise or M cropped to 1.33 or 37, and the some of the compositions look as bad as they would in a 1.37 movie cropped to 16x9 or 1.85.

Posted by Ricardo David (Member # 9308) on 11-09-2019, 11:09 AM:

The bigest problem is that the dark on the movie 4.3 blends with 1.85 (container)black,so the movie is all dark and sometimes seams that is not im the right format.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-09-2019, 01:11 PM:

That's why god created adjustable masking.

- Carsten

Posted by Ricardo David (Member # 9308) on 11-11-2019, 11:12 AM:

hello again,
in another cinema the movie has pillarboxing in the dark scenes,and the black from the image is not the same of the bars,for me when is dark it all blends in dark, maybe my black levels arent okay, can anyone help me in this this.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-11-2019, 11:44 AM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
That's why god created adjustable masking.

Along with the 11th commandment -- Thou shalt use movable masking.

Posted by Ricardo David (Member # 9308) on 11-12-2019, 01:17 PM:

GUYS,
WHAT LEVEL DO YOU HAVE IN THE MCGD FOR BLACK LEVEL?