Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: "WAR & PEACE"

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 12-02-2002, 02:46 PM:

Although there are three filmed versions of Leo Tolstoy's "WAR & PEACE", the two well known ones will be coming out on DVD this month. The 1956 Paramount version with Audrey Hephburn & Henry Fonda is coming out tomorrow (12/3) and the superior 1967 Russian adaption will be released later this month. There is a 1982 German version starring Jurgen Prochnov but with a running time of only 85 minutes, I am not expecting very much from it if I ever have an opportunity to see it. The American version runs three hours and twenty eight minutes and was filmed in VistaVision. The Russion film was shot in a Soviet 65mm process and I am not sure if it was ever shown in 70mm in the United States. I did see the film in 35mm with monauraul sound and was not impressed with the picture and the sound. THe film itself was very stunning and because of it's six hours and thirteen minute running time, it had to be shown in either two or three parts. It was a long time ago and I do not remember how many parts there were. I do recall seeing the movie at the Royal Queen Theatre in Honolulu which was an exclusive art theatre at that time on two or three seperate evenings. I have not seen the American version directed by King Vidor but I understand that it is also a very good film. One nice thing about the Russion DVD version is the 5.1 Dolby Digital sound track mastered from the original 70mm six tracks. I hope the image will be mastered from either a 70mm print or a brand new interpostive struck from the original 65mm negatives if the the film has not lost it's original color and contrast. There should be no problem with the Paramount version because the film was shot in VistaVision and the majority or all of the release prints were IB Technicolor. The sound was Monaural in the theatre and and will be the same on the DVD. I am really looking forward to seeing the Russian version in my home again and I intend to do it in a very leisurely manner. I have already set aside three of of my time tomorrow evening to watch the Paramount version and I know I will enjoy it.

-Claude

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 12-02-2002, 06:27 PM:

Didn't the Soviet system actually shoot on 70mm negative (as opposed to the west's use of 65mm negative)?

WAR AND PEACE was originally released in the Soviet Union in 4 parts, but in the U.S. parts 1 and 2 became part 1 and parts 3-4 became part two. I don't know if it played during it's orgiginal first-run in the states in 70mm; however, there have been special showings in the U.S. in the 70mm format, including at the American Cinemateque a couple of years ago (maybe earlier? Time flies, unless you're watching this film). Also, an AFI Fest showing in 70mm at the DGA one year.

I'm not sure why IB Techniclor prints would matter here, since the DeLaurentis version of WAR AND PEACE wasn't shot three-strip. AFAIK, dye-transfer prints are rarely used for video transfers, and I'm sure one wasn't used for this job, either.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 12-02-2002, 11:59 PM:

I am very sorry for giving you the impression that the American version of "WAR & PEACE" On DVD was going to be mastered from a IB Technicolor print. All I said in my post was about the film being shown in IB Technicolor in most or all theatres during it's first run engagements after prints were struck from "Seps" made from the Eastman color negatives which was the norm from the early fifties to 1974 when "GODFATHER 2", the last IB print was released before the processing and printing equipment was shipped to the People's Republic of China. The reason I am expecting a very vibrant presentation of "WAR & PEACE" on DVD is due to the use of the seperation negatives made from the original Eastmancolor to make the interpositive that was used to produce the DVD.

-Claude

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-03-2002, 07:30 AM:

Today, most video releases are NOT transferred from a print. Much better quality is obtained by transferring a color timed master positive or duplicate negative, although Kodak also makes a special low contrast print film specifically optimized for telecine transfer:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/h12395t.shtml

Telecine technology has improved dramatically in the last decade, so a recently made transfer is likely to have significantly better quality than one made a few years ago.

Kodak once showed an HD video transfer made on the Spirit telecine (Kodak developed and produces the scanning optics and CCD sensors for the Spirit) at an SMPTE technical conference. IMHO, the D-5 HD video of a 60+ year old B&W Fred Astaire movie had better image quality than any of the live HD video cameras being shown on the exhibit floor. [thumbsup]

Spirit DataCine

Kodak Scanning Technology

New Kodak 4K Scanning Technology

Digital Film Mastering

Posted by John Gordon (Member # 523) on 12-03-2002, 03:36 PM:

I saw War and Peace at the Eyptian Theatre in LA a couple years ago in 70mm. It was great, considering its age. And I thought it was more closer to 7 hours than 6 and 1/4. It was just awesome. There were 2 intermissions. Pretty incredible indeed.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 12-04-2002, 03:15 AM:

Claude wrote:

quote:
The 1956 Paramount version with Audrey Hephburn & Henry Fonda is coming out tomorrow (12/3) and the superior 1967 Russian adaption will be released later this month.

There is another DVD edition of the Russian film, released on the Kultur label back in October. I haven't been able to view a copy, so I cannot comment on its quality or if the running time is identical to the Image version. I didn't see any references on the jacket for picture or audio presentation formats.

The Image Entertainment DVD of the Russian film was originally announced for release on December 3, the same day as Paramount's 1956 version. Recently, however, the Image release got moved to December 31.

Paul wrote:

quote:
I don't know if it played during it's orgiginal first-run in the states in 70mm

I'm surprised you didn't look this up! I believe there was a 70mm engagement in New York during spring 1968 (as well as the occasional special screenings such as the ones you mentioned). I saw this at the American Cinematheque when they ran it a couple years and was certainly glad I went (though to say I wasn't a bit on the tired side after the eight hours or whatever it was would be an understatement).

Claude wrote:

quote:
"Seps" made from the Eastman color negatives which was the norm from the early fifties to 1974 when "GODFATHER 2", the last IB print was released before the processing and printing equipment was shipped to the People's Republic of China.

Claude,
The Godfather Part II was the final production printed in IB Tech *in the U.S.* IB Tech prints continued to be made in England for another few years.

I had the privilege to see a reel from a 1977 British IB Tech print of Star Wars recently, and it still looked fine (and it didn't say Episode IV: A New Hope, either. [Smile]

). The IB reel sure looked better than the original American-struck, non-IB Tech reel they ran a few weeks ago in L.A. at the Episode II Digital Production Seminar!

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 12-04-2002, 01:23 PM:

quote:
I'm surprised you didn't look this up! I believe there was a 70mm engagement in New York during spring 1968

Surprised? Why? And look it up where? I remember seeing ads for a NYC run in 1968, but remember no 70mm notation in the NY Times ad. Which is why I thought I covered myself by saying that I didn't know.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 12-07-2002, 06:46 PM:

quote:
Surprised? Why?

Because you have presented yourself on the forums and newsgroups and other communications as a resourceful and informed person.

quote:
And look it up where?

You mean you don't own a copy of The Ultimate Guide To Everything One Needs To Know About Russian Cinema? [Smile]

Okay, okay, Widescreen Review... you've referred to that source on numerous other occasions where these types of photography, soundtrack, presentation, roadshow era, etc. topics were being discussed.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 12-07-2002, 08:38 PM:

quote:
You mean you don't own a copy of The Ultimate Guide To Everything One Needs To Know About Russian Cinema?

No, I haven't been able to find a good reference book on Soviet cinema, but I take this as a recommendation and will try a search. I've seen quite a few Soviet films (War and Peace on ABC MANY years ago (run in 4 parts, I believe). A film class I took( it actually satisfies a Computer Imaging requirement) included Battle of Potemkin. I've also seen IVAN THE TERRIBLE (1 and 2), ALEXANDER NEVSKY, LEGEND OF SURAM FORTRESS (beautiful but plodding)SLAVE OF LOVE (hysterical ending!), some of Tarkovsky's ponderous films, MOSCOW DOES NOT BELIEVE IN TEARS, one about an air conditioning mechanic who goes to a VERY weird town on a job and stumbles across an Elvis museum, another one in which a man hides out in a hammer and cycle monument by a road, ande some others whose names escape me.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 12-07-2002, 10:21 PM:

quote:
Okay, okay, Widescreen Review... you've referred to that source on numerous other occasions where these types of photography, soundtrack, presentation, roadshow era, etc. topics were being discussed.

OK, as you suggested, I looked it up on "that source," and this is what I found:

quote:
“War And Peace.” Originally released in the USSR in four parts (totaling 507 min). US 70mm release (at 373 min): April 28, 1968. US reserved seat engagement.

Geez, I hope people don't get the idea that I'm part of WSR's marketing department.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 01-08-2003, 06:18 PM:

quote:
The Image Entertainment DVD of the Russian film was originally announced for release on December 3, the same day as Paramount's 1956 version. Recently, however, the Image release got moved to December 31.

I recently got word from Image Entertainment that their DVD release of War And Peace has been put on hold. No new date has been established.

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 02-23-2003, 05:30 PM:

The Russian WAR AND PEACE has great cinematography. Some years ago, we screened a dubbed 70mm version at the German Film Museum. The color changed with every reel because, as I learned, the release prints for the other eastern countries were produced in Romania where they obviously had trouble with their printing/developing technology - I noticed many changes in density and shaprness. The good reels were absolutely breathtaking, one battle sequence has an impact like the first 30 minutes of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.

But the Russians obviously chose their leading lady to have "their own Audrey Hepburn" ! [Smile]

Posted by Elena N. Solovyova (Member # 1636) on 02-28-2003, 07:08 AM:

quote:
the release prints for the other eastern countries were produced in Romania where they obviously had trouble with their printing/developing technology

Actually, the copies of "War & Peace" was produced either at USSR (Mosfilm labs) or East germany (DEFA labs). The majority of original stock was Soviet "Svema". Some copies for distribution were printed at East Germany-produced ORWO stock.

I have reel #6 at my "vault". 70 mm, mag striped (now completely silent probably to improper storage). Svema stock. Major discoloration and extreme wear (24 splices!). Was picked up from a pile of scrapped reels at local film distribution company.

Some years ago Mosfilm studios produced a few restored copies on 35 Kodak Vision stock, using original interpositive. They made SR-D track out of original mag elements, too. It looks fantastic, despite some grainy scenes and minor negative dirt at the end of reels.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-28-2003, 09:18 AM:

Welcome Elena! I think you are the first Film-Tech participant from Russia. Please tell us something about yourself in the "Who the HECK are you" thread:

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000004

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 02-28-2003, 03:19 PM:

quote:
Actually, the copies of "War & Peace" was produced either at USSR (Mosfilm labs) or East germany (DEFA labs). The majority of original stock was Soviet "Svema". Some copies for distribution were printed at East Germany-produced ORWO stock.

Elena,

you are right, I should have said "the prints for the GDR release". I had the Romania information from a technician who used to work for DEFA, the East German state film company. He said that their own lab had so few 70mm printing machines that they could not handle all release prints for the German Democratic Republic, so WAR AND PEACE was printed in Romania. I have no idea whether this is true, but in 1966/67 the GDR produced a number of their own "DEFA-70" 70mm films, so it could make sense.

Posted by Elena N. Solovyova (Member # 1636) on 03-02-2003, 07:35 AM:

Christian,

quote:
said that their own lab had so few 70mm printing machines that they could not handle all release prints for the German Democratic Republic, so WAR AND PEACE was printed in Romania.

Actually, it may be true. Such quirk was likely to be omitted from reference books.

As a side note -- I remember a book from 70's mentioning the difficulties of recording and mixing five onscreen sound channels (citing "War & Peace" lead sound engineer). It was stated that 3 onscreen channels actually provide better results, since every little mixing error with 5 channels renders spatial effects "fake".

It also stated that "effects channel" (the mono surround channel) is nice, but "it should not carry any unique sound information, since many older 70mm-venues discard it".

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 03-09-2003, 08:58 PM:

Was it the original version of this book ?

It`s the only book about Russian film equipment I know, unfortunately it has only drawings but no photos of interesting items like to 70mm and Kinopanorama 3-strip cameras or the laboratory equipment.

Posted by Elena N. Solovyova (Member # 1636) on 03-10-2003, 06:30 AM:

Christian, no, that's not that book. I'll try to find the name.

BTW, I'll try to find the Vysotsky book. The Russian edition may also contain some more illustrations and even photos. Thank you for the tip!