Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: BLACK SWAN (2010)

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Posted by Jim Bedford (Member # 4) on 12-03-2010, 11:21 PM:

The BLUE VELVET of dance movies (with a bit of MOMMY DEAREST tossed in.) Almost a Gothic horror film. It grabbed me from the first and wouldn't let me go. It was a fun and often a surprising ride through a world I didn't know. Compelling and sexy too.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 12-13-2010, 09:29 PM:

****

Black Swan is a very good movie or film. Kind of reminds me of Jacob's Ladder (from memory, not for content but kind of for style) and Stanley Kubrick would love this movie. Also, Wes Craven would probably like this movie too.

This movie really grabs a hold of you. There is a scene midway through where Portman goes to a bar with a friend and the scene starts off at the bar, then dancing then back to Portman's bed. The scene is 20 minutes and its filmaking at its finest.

The film is kind of like art. I look at the poster of Portman and just can't get my thoughts out of my head on how the movie made me feel. The film really stays with you.

The three main actors are outstanding and the directing of these actors is very, very good. This is Portmans, Mila Kunis and Aronofsky's best work to date. I have not seen Requiem for a Dream. Mila Kunis really stands out. The score, editing and story are very good. I would have to say that there will be multiple Oscar noms for Black Swan.

I am not sure if this based on a book, but the screenplay is excellent. Finally a horror/thriller geared towards women.

The movie/film is a borderline thriller/horror and when you really think the director is going to let you go, he keeps grabbing at you.

I was going to say that "Never Let Me Go" was IMO the best film of the year, but "Black Swan" is now at the top of my top 10 list.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 12-15-2010, 06:05 PM:

Black Swan was a bit of a bore for me. Nothing by Natalie Portman with a knit brow looking worried for two hours. She starts out crazy and stays crazy, not much of a character arc.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 12-20-2010, 09:11 PM:

Can't wait for this one. Love the new 'cracked china doll' poster.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-24-2010, 09:29 PM:

I haven't figured out if I like this movie or not yet. I liked what it was trying to do. And the story definitely had potential to make a great movie. I'm just not sure if I like how this movie tried to tell the story or if it succeeded in my mind.

I think the cameraman must have had one leg shorter than the other or something. And the combination of ultra-close ups and shots from across the room made me wonder what was up. It didn't help that the theater we were in had it framed too high. How this was possible on a scope movie is beyond me unless they're using the wrong lens for that throw distance.

At some point, I may decided if I liked this movie or not. But those technical details are definitely hurting my opinion of it. It certainly wasn't "beautifully shot".

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 12-24-2010, 10:44 PM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
I haven't figured out if I like this movie or not yet. I liked what it was trying to do. And the story definitely had potential to make a great movie. I'm just not sure if I like how this movie tried to tell the story or if it succeeded in my mind.

Well thats actually good that you are not sure, that means it left some sort of impression on you (good or bad) which you have to think about, great movies make you think about them afterward. I liked it, but I am not sure if this is the best movie of the year. Top 5 for sure, just not sure if it is #1.

quote: Mark J. Marshall
I think the cameraman must have had one leg shorter than the other or something. And the combination of ultra-close ups and shots from across the room made me wonder what was up. It didn't help that the theater we were in had it framed too high. How this was possible on a scope movie is beyond me unless they're using the wrong lens for that throw distance.

Movie was shot on 16mm. This should explain it. Also, the were a lot of extreme close ups, I have never seen so many, but it worked.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-25-2010, 04:40 AM:

I agree that a good movie can make you think about it afterward. That doesn't mean that every movie that I have to think about is a good one. Some movies end up being worse in my mind the more I think about them. But I am leaning towards liking this movie though.

Seizure-Cam isn't exclusive to 16mm - it's terrible in any format. I wish film makers would knock it the hell off. As a story telling device it's so over used that it doesn't add anything except a distraction. I imagine one day we'll all look back on this period of film-making and marvel about how many potentially great films (and TV shows for that matter) were completely destroyed by the over use of that cinematic technique.

Extreme close ups can work. But when they're used so much that you start to notice them then it takes you out of the story. That definitely happened here. A lot of the movie just felt "in your face" to me. "In your face" is not the same as "intimate" which is what this story felt like it called for. To me it kind of looked like it was composed and shot for flat but was then cropped for scope.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 12-25-2010, 05:10 AM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
I agree that a good movie can make you think about it afterward. That doesn't mean that every movie that I have to think about is a good one. Some movies end up being worse in my mind the more I think about them. But I am leaning towards liking this movie though.

Hey Mark, Usually I where the film stands or how much I like. With Black Swan I am still debating with myself whether it is the Best Picture of the year. I still have two more movies to go before I decide.

And you are right, sometimes movies become worse the more I think about them. Buried is one I can think of, as well as Sean Penn in Fair Game. For the most part, I usually know right away.

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Seizure-Cam isn't exclusive to 16mm - it's terrible in any format. I wish film makers would knock it the hell off. As a story telling device it's so over used that it doesn't add anything except a distraction. I imagine one day we'll all look back on this period of film-making and marvel about how many potentially great films (and TV shows for that matter) were completely destroyed by the over use of that cinematic technique.

Extreme close ups can work. But when they're used so much that you start to notice them then it takes you out of the story. That definitely happened here. A lot of the movie just felt "in your face" to me. "In your face" is not the same as "intimate" which is what this story felt like it called for. To me it kind of looked like it was composed and shot for flat but was then cropped for scope.

Here is a quote by the cinematographer.

"We used a Canon 7D or 1D Mark IV for all the subway scenes; I could just carry a 7D and shoot on the subway all day with a very small crew"

They were filming gorilla style which is pretty cool.

It was a single-camera shoot except for maybe one day, and our main camera was an Arri 416, which we used with Arri Ultra Prime 16 lenses. We used a Canon 7D or 1D Mark IV for all the subway scenes; I could just carry a 7D and shoot on the subway all day with a very small crew. I did some tests with my wife beforehand to figure out my ASA, my stop, and how I was going to deal with the focus. I didn’t use any rigs with it because I wasn’t trying to shoot in the traditional way. I tested a bunch of different exposures and then brought the footage to Charlie Hertzfeld at Technicolor, who put it in the system so I could look at the highlights, the moiré and the resolution. Then I went back to the drawing board to do more tests. The 7D has more depth of field than the 5D, but I needed that because I didn’t have a follow-focus unit and needed to work really fast. I shot everything documentary-style. I did all the focus pulls by hand, and we’d just look at it on the camera’s monitor. I ended up shooting on a Canon 24mm lens at 1,600 ASA to get as much depth of field as possible at a stop of T8.

BlackSwan

Check out this link. This is some cool feature filmaking.

Subway shooting and interview

And it is clear as to why he uses 16mm, the setups are so much shorter as he says.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 12-25-2010, 11:54 AM:

quote: Tom Petrov

I did some tests with my wife.....

I'd like to hear more about that. [Razz]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-25-2010, 08:00 PM:

Wo, for a second there I thought that Tom was talking about his wife.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 12-28-2010, 08:16 PM:

This is one weird movie. I agree with Jim Bedford that it feels like BLUE VELVET. I also agree with Mark Marshall in that I can't decide whether I liked it or not.

The movie has a very cold feel to it...very few bright colors, except for one important one near the end.

Probable OSCAR nominations for

Best Actress -- Natalie Portman
Best Supporting Actress -- Barbara Hershey
Best Director -- Darren Aronofsky
Best Movie -- Black Swan

There is a terrific special effects sequence as she dances the final Black Swan ballet. Very subtle and very effective.

And, that shakiness was more than a little annoying at times!

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 12-28-2010, 08:19 PM:

quote: Mark Lensenmayer
Best Actress -- Natalie Portman
Best Supporting Actress -- Barbara Hershey
Best Director -- Darren Aronofsky
Best Movie -- Black Swan

Vincent Cassel and Mila Kunis as well.

I think Kunis is going to get the Oscar this year.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-28-2010, 10:28 PM:

quote: Tom Petrov
filming gorilla style

Not sure what that means, but I keep thinking about the Late Night Monkey Cam®, from the old NBC Letterman show.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 12-28-2010, 10:37 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Not sure what that means, but I keep thinking about the Late Night Monkey Cam®, from the old NBC Letterman show.

What it mean is. The filmakers used 7D digital cameras to film inside the New York Subway system without elaborate camera, set ups and lighting.

The real definition is, "lack of permits" while filming. Which usually mean no real setup or sets.

Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 12-28-2010, 11:05 PM:

I'm sorry but Kunis did nothing to deserve an Oscar nod in this movie let alone an Oscar. She was fine in her role, but she did nothing to be deserving of that praise.

I saw this when it was released in Limited runs at the start of the month. I haven't felt compelled to write about it, and still don't. Since I was typing to say that Kunis didn't earn an Oscar nom I figured I should do my review as well.

I'm a fan of Aronofsky, Wrestler is still one of my fav's from the past couple years. This film just felt boring, just like Ian said. She started Crazy and ends Crazy, no character Arc. I'm glad people enjoyed it, it just wasn't for me.

2/5 [thumbsup]

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 12-31-2010, 09:49 PM:

I am thinking about seeing THE BLACK SWAN on Sunday after I watch THE KINGS SPEECH tomorrow. As a music and ballet lover, the theme interest me very much but when the movie is compared to BLUE VELVET, I have some misgivings about seeing THE BLACK SWAN because I totally disliked BLUE VELVET. I founf B.V. a totally boring movie and when Ian and Kurt said they were bored with TBS, i might be too. When I watch a movie, I want to be totally entertained from the very beginning. I have noticed most of you are on the fence with this film except Jim & Tom who seem to be the only ones who enjoyed it.

-Claude

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 01-01-2011, 12:52 AM:

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
As a music and ballet lover

Well, if the Academy has any balls. Black Swan is the best picture of the year.

Also, Black Swan is a horror movie for chicks....not really a music/ballet lovers dream!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-15-2011, 07:13 PM:

I watched Black Swan this afternoon. I liked it quite a bit, aside from the often grungy, shot on video look of it. Natalie Portman will at least get an Oscar nomination if not the award itself. It was fun in a sort of black comedy way to see Portman's character get consumed by the drive for perfection and end up going bat shit crazy in the process. I kind of expected the character to wake up in an insane asylum having imagined the whole thing, but thankfully the movie didn't use a cheap stunt like that.

I wasn't expecting the sound mix of Black Swan to be as aggressive as it was. Lots of stuff happening in the surrounds, particularly point source effects in rear corners like loud door knocks, crashing mirrors, etc. The music score was plenty loud. How about that noise Portman was making during her Black Swan performance? Weird!

quote: Mike Blakesley
Not sure what that means, but I keep thinking about the Late Night Monkey Cam®, from the old NBC Letterman show.

I think the proper term would be "guerrilla film making" or rather "guerrilla video shooting." Not "gorilla." Not monkey, ape, chimp, etc. either. Although I'll think the Academy is again a bunch of chumps if they give Black Swan a best cinematography Oscar -sort of like Slumdog Millionaire winning the cinematography Oscar over The Dark Knight. Inception had some great cinematography, some of which was shot on 5/65mm. I hope it wins instead of some "guerrilla" style cinematography. It would be nice for the voters to get over that "digital" word for once and actually open their eyes.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 01-16-2011, 01:20 PM:

I think the Cinematography Award is going to be good. Inception used a little 5/65, Black Swan used a lot of 16mm, Social Network was all digital...my vote is for Black Swan.

Inception should have no problem getting the editing award.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 01-23-2011, 08:13 PM:

Although most of the reviews here have been positive for THE BLACK SWAN but after reading some of the negative comments, I had decided to wait for the the Blu-Ray but when Natalie Portman won a Golden Globe for her performance in the film last week, I saw it yesterday. I am glad I did because I enjoyed the movie very much. Another reason I decided to see it was due to my partiality to Tchaikovsky's SWAN LAKE and found the scenes from the ballet in the movie fantastic especially the finale. After watching the film, I agree Natalie Portman deserved winning a Golden Globe award for her performance and she will be nominated for an Academy Award next Friday and I predict she will win.

-Claude

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 01-23-2011, 09:30 PM:

Claude- What are thoughts on the performance of Mila Kunis?

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 01-23-2011, 09:57 PM:

Tom,

I thought Mila Kunis played the part of Lili very well. The part she played in THE BLACK SWAN reminded me of the character, Iago in Shakespeare's tragic play Othello when she pretended to be a friend of Nina (Natalie Portman) but had other selfish intentions. She might get a Oscar nomination but I doubt she will win.

By the way, the technical qualities of the movie was excellent with fantastic use of split surround. I saw the movie at Regal's Pearlhighand 16 and was very impressed with the presentation in 35mm and SRD.

-Claude

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 01-24-2011, 04:43 AM:

Claude,

Thanks for the comments, I didn't think Portman's performance was the performance of the year. I thought Michelle Williams was the best actress for Blue Valentine.

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
the technical qualities of the movie was excellent with fantastic use of split surround

Goes to show you that at the end of the day, the filmed/exhibition format really mean nothing as Black Swan has made $83million so far this year and was filmed in 16mm and I saw it in digital. I am glad you enjoyed a 35mm presentation.

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 03-21-2011, 08:48 PM:

At Cinemart Forest Hills NY Screen 4, March 20, 2011

I resisted my wife's many invitations to view this film until last night, having enjoyed Moira Shearer in The Red Shoes a couple of generations ago. I thought that classic said it all about ballet.
So what did The Black Swan add?
Self mutilation, masturbation, lesbian seduction, choreographer as sexual predator, LSD hallucinations, mother/daughter conflict, and such slow-paced assault on a girl's innocence that I felt like leaving half way through.
I thought of the little girl who complained to the librarian, "This book tells more about penguins than I care to know."
Poor Natalie Portman, to have had to play such a role.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 03-21-2011, 09:26 PM:

Self mutilation, masturbation, lesbian seduction, choreographer as sexual predator, LSD hallucinations.......

So what didn't you,like about it? [Wink]

Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 03-22-2011, 12:00 AM:

quote: Gerard S. Cohen
Poor Natalie Portman, to have had to play such a role.

Poor Natalie Portman? She decided to do this movie, she wasn't forced to do it. This was the best thing she could of ever done for her career. This has made her a superstar. She was a name before, but now she is a Superstar.

If you didn't like the movie, I understand. Cause I didn't really care for it, but in the end it is just a movie.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 03-22-2011, 03:15 AM:

Is Natalie the muncher or munchee?

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 03-22-2011, 10:09 AM:

^ Both.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 03-22-2011, 03:00 PM:

Oh well, I may just have to watch it again on BD. [Razz]

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 03-22-2011, 04:20 PM:

I recommend watching it several times due to the ambiguity of the sequence.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 03-22-2011, 06:46 PM:

Hmm. This may need more research than I originally thought.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 03-22-2011, 06:59 PM:

Oh, I'd say so. You'll need to go long and deep, mate.

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 03-22-2011, 10:06 PM:

There is in "Black Swan" one major theme that has been given much thought in the arts recently. In her essay "Outsmart, Outwork, Outrival and Outdream" in the New York Times Magazine of March 20th ("You could look it up") Carina Chocano treats the topic of self-perfection as discussed vy Pelagius, St. Augustine, Amy Chua's "Battle of the Tiger Mother, and the films "Limitless" and "The Adjustment Bureau".

In "Limitless" the character Bradley Cooper takes pills that change him from a disorganized shlep to a perfect self-directed go-getter who becomes insanely rich and perfectly successful in every way. Whereas in "The Adjustment Bureau"
the characters are controlled by (if not fate or God) "something like luck, birth order, genetics, macroeconomics, the law of big government or your damnable big boss."

In "Black Swan" the dancer strives for perfection, which enables the choreographer to victimize her. Her dying words are noe "Rosebud" but "I was perfect!" This theme of the striving for perfection seems like something thrown into the mix
to justify the making of the fil. But maybe that's better than the fuckbucket-full of forensic fetishes the filmmakers ended up with.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 03-22-2011, 10:32 PM:

The theme of perfection no more justifies the making of the film than, say, a narrative does.

Can I just add that the choreographer (Vincent Cassel) seems to be the most misunderstood character in the film. He doesn't victimise Portman, nor is he a "sexual predator". He is merely playing her (possibly in concert with Kunis - that's never made clear), pushing her to find her dark side in an effort to squeeze out her best performance. Examples of this kind of directorial behaviour litter the history of the arts. Whether you condone such methods or not is an entirely different matter.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-23-2011, 12:32 AM:

People who idolize Natalie Portman's beauty amuse me. Yes, she is very pretty. But certainly you all have heard of people who are butterface's, right? Well, Natalie is a butterbod. Great face, body of a 12-year-old boy. I guess that's why she's perfect as a ballerina. Why do ballerinas even exist, by the way?

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 03-23-2011, 01:38 AM:

They don't. Well, okay, they barely exist.

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 03-23-2011, 08:11 AM:

Though the choreographer may claim to be "pushing her to find her dark side in an attempt to squeeze out her best performance", this seems to me a ciche' rationalization of the "casting couch." "I'll make you a star" or "I'll perfect your abilities" etc.

This rationalization has been used by a sexual preditor priest convicted in Philadelphia (one of more than 20 disciplined by the Archbishop from a list of 42 he submitted to the District Attorney); he told the altar boy he was raping
"Now you are a man" and turned him over to two of his colleagues for similar use.

Nobody's penis is a magic wand.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 03-23-2011, 08:24 PM:

Yes, but he never actually "does the deed" though, does he? Look at that sequence where the pair of them are alone in the dance studio; he could have had her right there and then but, significantly, he doesn't. That is because that is not his intention. Indeed there's nothing to suggest (that I can recall) that he actually beds his primas at all other than the idle, bitchy gossip of the other ballerinas no doubt born of jealousy.

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 03-23-2011, 09:29 PM:

Who was screwing whom on the table slightly offstage when the lights went out as she was rehearsing alone to become perfect?? It certainly upset her --possibly knowing she was in line to be next, or angered that she was being deceived by the guy's line?? She lashed out in anger and became more self-destructive. Which fits everyone's obsession with the dying swan allegory.

(I never really liked that ballet; it seems to me part of the 19th Century romantic obsession with death and beauty during the period of Victoria's mourning for Prince Albert that Mark Twain ridiculed in "Huckleberry Finn.)

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 03-23-2011, 09:48 PM:

^ Was that actually real? Did that actually happen?

Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 03-24-2011, 04:43 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
People who idolize Natalie Portman's beauty amuse me. Yes, she is very pretty. But certainly you all have heard of people who are butterface's, right? Well, Natalie is a butterbod. Great face, body of a 12-year-old boy. I guess that's why she's perfect as a ballerina. Why do ballerinas even exist, by the way?

Joe have you seen her in the "Your Highness" trailer? She sure doesn't have a 12-year-old boys body in that one.