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Posted by Gary Martin (Member # 1053) on 11-24-2001, 06:04 PM:
 
just checked out your message board for the first time cool stuff as a working projectionist/engineer in good old blighty i have to beg plead and generally pray to even get a sniff of the star wars trailer as i work for an independant and we are not considered as important as the big multis so we just sit and wait and wait and wait
if any body fancys communicating drop a line
cheers gary
 
Posted by Brian Potts (Member # 429) on 11-24-2001, 10:54 PM:
 
You can see the both versions of the Star Wars trailer at www.apple.com/trailers You will need to have Quick Time player to play them.
 
Posted by Erich Warwell (Member # 977) on 11-25-2001, 06:15 AM:
 
Hey, I've seen the Star Wars Episode 2 teaser and it looked good but, I've heard the newest longer version just makes it look like a love story between anakan and the princess. I havn't seen if for myself though.
 
Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 11-25-2001, 10:43 AM:
 
Photographically speaking (if that's a real phrase)... the trailer is amazing. The compositions are great. The colors are great. It most certainly has the "film look" which digital cinema so desperately wants. In fact, when you see a trailer (normally) you're so far removed from first generation negative that it almost always looks bad. What George Lucas is doing this time allows him to, essentially, make as many "original negatives" as he wants to from which release prints can be struck. The result? The "Forbidden Love" trailer looks better than the Harry Potter movie it's attached to! And this was a digital image! I'm stunned.

So... we can argue about whether there are enough pixels in George Lucas' toy box to make this movie look as good as film. But when you consider that most release prints are at least four generations away from the original negative and trailers are even worse than that (John from Kodak may correct me if I'm mistaken) perhaps the pixel math will be moot.


 


Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 11-25-2001, 11:57 AM:
 
Of course the argument against the trailer is that it looks "cartoony" because of the CGI, and it does in my opinion. But some looks good, some of it looks awful. I hope it comes to digital in my area so I can make a comparison.
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-25-2001, 12:29 PM:
 
But will they actually make a number of "original negatives" for the film for the actual release? Or will they do a one-time negative creation and do the usual? I understand the last film had a few wetgate prints, a larger number of slow-printed and a big number of rapid speed prints made.
 
Posted by Richard Topping (Member # 871) on 11-25-2001, 01:31 PM:
 
1st time that I saw the new Star Wards trailer I thought it was a load of crap, and was concentrating too much on the love side of the story. However, after seeing it loads of times now I must say that it has grown on me a lot and my only grudge is... why not in SDDS? We don't all have SRD!
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-25-2001, 03:35 PM:
 
The trailers I have seen have all 3 digital formats on them.

Interesting point Greg brings up about generation loss. Hopefully Lucas will output the digital image to film (however that is done, I don't really know) many times so that ALL of the negatives are essentially "first generation" from the video original.
 


Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 11-25-2001, 03:55 PM:
 
Why is the trailer called "Black Eyes"?

Gregg, Did anyone ever tell you that you resemble Jimmy Buffett?
 


Posted by Aaron Haney (Member # 747) on 11-25-2001, 04:45 PM:
 
Actually, those involved in Episode II have already stated they will be bypassing the usual release print process. Here is a quote from a news story in which producer Rick McCallum talks about releasing Episode II on film:
quote:
Remember, our "negative" is on a server. We'll go straight from our server to an IN, and from the IN we go straight to release prints. So we get to bypass the original negative, the answer print, and the IP stage. We'll be releasing on film from 2,000-foot negative reels without a single splice. The level of quality that we will provide to 5,000 theatres will be unprecedented.
That's very nice, but calling the level of quality "unprecedented" is a bit over the top. I'm sure there were many prints in circulation during the heydays of 70mm 6-track that would have given it a run for its money.

Later in that article, McCallum once again pulls out the "nothing will be able to stop it" quote in reference to digital cinema. Puh-leeease. Can't we move beyond simplistic will-it-or-won't-it discussions, and have people start talking about what kind of digital cinema we're going to get? Good or bad? Pathetic 1280x1024 resolution, or something closer to that of film? A puny 1000:1 contrast ratio, or something approaching that of film? A video-ish color gamut, or something closer to that of a dye-transfer print? I'm sick of all the mindless techno-cheerleading. How about some real, in depth analysis from people like him for once?


 


Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-25-2001, 05:28 PM:
 
Excuse me, but ALL the release prints will be made directly from one IN? If so, than why isnt that being done today? There should be no diff if a single IN came from the server or from a film negative.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-25-2001, 07:42 PM:
 
They don't all have to come from a single IN (nor do I think they would)...but with a digital origination...they could output as many INs as necessary to handle the release prints in a timely manner without ever wearing out an ON.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 


Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 11-25-2001, 08:46 PM:
 
Newbie alert! What the heck are INs and ONs!?

Die, digtital cinema, die! Long live film!
 


Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-25-2001, 09:31 PM:
 
ON = original negative (i.e. the film that ran through the camera in a conventional non-digital shoot)
IP = interpositive (one generation away from the original negative)
IN = internegative (two generations away from original negative; made from an interpositive; used as printing elements for general release prints)
release print = the stuff that runs through the projector (includes picture and optical soundtrack) at the theatres; these are usually made from an internegative

When shooting on film, you only have one ON. When shooting electronically, the ON is what is output from the film recorder and, thus, you can have as many ONs as you want.
 


Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-26-2001, 12:04 AM:
 
My point is, though, that there IS a cost for every IN made from the digital master. Are they willing to go to that expense to make all the IN's necessary for all those prints? I certainly HOPE they do, but if this practice is accepted by the industry for ALL digital films, cost WILL become an issue.
 
Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 11-26-2001, 01:09 AM:
 
Jimmy Buffett? No... I haven't heard that. But these days it's hard to tell if the picture you're seeing is really supposed to be the guy who's writing. I mean... Paul! Wow!

Lucas made an interesting comment when Episode One was playing in "digital cinemas" in the summer of 1999. If you recall, the theatres selected weren't the best, state-of-the-art THX whiz-bang places to see movies. Lucas said something like, "Remember, this is as bad as it's ever going to be. Digital cinema will only get better from here." (That's paraphrasing rather than an exact quote.) I hope he was sincre and that the technicians won't sit still until digital cinema truly does rival the resolution and contract ratios of... oh... I don't know... 70mm!

There was an interesting article in a recent issue of American Cinematographer about Episode Two. Lucas said (and I'm paraphrasing here again) that he didn't want to argue about black levels and pixel counts. Just watch the results and decide how it looks. So far, I'm impressed. As for the thing looking "cartoony" I don't think it looks any more so than the CGI we've been seeing for years already. The CGI ocean in the Episode Two trailer looks no more cartoony to me than the digital ocean in The Perfect Storm. (It's the same software, after all.) The only trouble with Episode Two is that 90% of the sets will also be CGI. But... that's no different from Episode One.
 


Posted by Aaron Haney (Member # 747) on 11-26-2001, 02:25 AM:
 
"Lucas said ... he didn't want to argue about black levels and pixel counts." I guess he is aware that digital in its current state would lose any such arguments.

It really burns me that proponents of digital cinema don't deal in facts. They deal in hype. They spout vague, hand-waving arguments and nothing more. They don't seem interested in actually measuring whether digital or film produces better results.

As for the thing about Episode II prints, McCallum's statement is a little unclear, but I'm pretty sure they will be making multiple INs directly from the digital master, and the release prints from those. Someone on rec.arts.movies.tech posted saying there will be 50 such INs coming directly from the digital master, but that poster did not say where he got his information.
 


Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 11-26-2001, 09:39 AM:
 
I am going to restate my question that I posted earlier.

Aaron, Ken:

Have either of you actually seen a DLP presentation or are you just totally put off by what you have heard?

If it is the second, I would recommend that you see a show first, then think about what the average consumer would think. It has been mentioned on this forum that film will probably never die because of financials involved in doing one or the other. D-Cinema will happen. There is no question about this. It is just a matter of when and who will be the major players as far as equipment is concerned.

I can tell you for fact that I have people that attended "Monsters" last weekend that came from Austin to Dallas (roughly 200 mi) to see the DLP exclusively. I have others that drive at least an hour, again to see the DLP exclusively. Must tell you something.

Paul.


 


Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-26-2001, 12:59 PM:
 
Here's a recent article about comparing digital and film origination from Cinematographer.com:
http://www.cinematographer.com/article/mainv/0,7220,31313,00.html

Here's a tutorial on current film duplication systems:
Printing Systems

"Digital Intermediate" has already been used for several features:
Digital Intermediate

Here's an article about the objective data being presented by Dr. Roger Morton:
The Impact on Digital Film Mastering by Dr. Roger Morton
SMPTE Report

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


 


Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 11-26-2001, 05:01 PM:
 
I'm not doubting that the quality is excelent. I just love working with film! If there were any DLP theatres around here, I'd go to one.
 
Posted by Aaron Haney (Member # 747) on 11-26-2001, 06:30 PM:
 
Yes Paul, I have seen DLP on several occasions, for both computer animated movies, and movies that were shot on film and transferred to digital. In all cases, I felt that the resolution and contrast simply didn't measure up to what I see with film.

In one instance, I was even able to do a near side-by-side comparison. A few months ago, I went to see "Final Fantasy" in DLP at the AMC 1000 Van Ness in San Francisco. After it was over, I stepped across the hall and peeked into another auditorium that was showing FF from a film print. The difference was remarkable. The change in contrast ratio was particularly noticable. I felt immediately that a huge range of values had been opened that I simply wasn't able to see in the other auditorium. The difference between the brightest thing on the screen and the darkest thing on the screen was much bigger than it was in the DLP screening. I must emphasize that this was not a subtle difference. It was night and day. I left the theater with the distinct impression that the laser recorder -> film combination gave better results than a DLP presentation.

Yes, yes, I know. Digital cinema is going to happen, nothing is going to stop it, etc. But if that's the only argument in favor of it, I'd say there's somthing wrong, wouldn't you?

(P.S. Sorry I didn't see your question the first time.)


 


Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 11-26-2001, 06:52 PM:
 
Aaron, I changed my question when I went to Page 1 and saw your complaints there.

DC will progress and possibly come closer to film but will probably not be able to surpass film or your keen eyes. This is one reason why film will continue to be in existance. Unless someone pointed out the differences, I probably would not be able to tell the difference.

Again, Joe MovieGoer probably wouldn't know the difference that you can see. They are there to be entertained (hopefully) and be told a story. Most won't care about contrast ratios or the things that a cinematographer looks for.

I am probably a little biased because I have two installations in my theatre, but it still amazes me what is being put up on the screen.


 


Posted by Aaron Haney (Member # 747) on 11-26-2001, 07:48 PM:
 
Hey, I don't mean to imply that I think digital cinema won't catch up and pass film. It probably will. I'm just groaning about the current state and all the hype surrounding it. There are other technologies on the horizon (D-ILA, Laser Projection) which may make DLP irrelevant. DLP is a neat hack, but it's got some problems. I'm looking forward to what the next few years will bring.

My only real fear is that what we have today will become a de-facto standard, and we'll be stuck with it even after better things come along.
 






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