I just registered for the forums and I look forward to hearing from all of you. I've been a lot of the informative topics and I'm thrilled to have come across this great resource (i.e., all of you).

I am actually an indie filmmaker in St. Louis, MO, but I'm thinking of opening a small alternative cinema theater in town. It seems like most (if not all) of you are very experienced with classic cinema venues (auditorium, stadium seating, 35mm, etc.), but I am sure that you can also help me with my tiny little theatre.

I want to take a historic building and turn it into a one screen theater with a full bar. I'm talking about a very relaxed atmosphere in which there is some table seating and some row seating. I'd like to be able to fit a good 50-80 seats in the showing room and still have good space for transit, cocktail waiters/waitresses, etc.

I know that it can be hard in some markets to maintain a one-screen theater, but this would be a little different. The primary focus is the films but it is also very much a place to socialize and make merry. I guess you could think of it as a cross between a B-movie brew 'n' view and a one-screen art house.

My first question... would this be considered a theatrical or a non-theatrical venue?

I'm totally new to the business side of film and so most of my questions relate to copyrights, rental fee structures, etc. I am aware of the classic theatrical rental fee model, in which you have a $500 guarantee (for example) as well as an earnings cap after which a 90/10 split kicks in.

Keep in mind, though, that the primary projection would be 16mm. Swank motion pictures is right down the street from me, and they carry a LOT of 16mm titles that I would be interested in showing (shorts programs, old classics, documentaries, etc.). Also, I am interested in showing old educational films not unlike those you would find on eBay. How would I go about doing that without breaking any copyright laws? Can I show copyrighted material if I do not charge a "cover"? I'm talking about films like "Bakery Beat", "How to Court a Lady", "Wound Management", etc. Old instructional films. I would be interested in showing some 16mm films from my collection like "Lights, Action, Africa", a documentary on the PBS photographers Joan and Alan Root. Is that possible, or do I have to seek out a distributor of any title I wish to show?

Now, I would hope to be considered a non-theatrical venue so that I could rent 16mm from Swank. Any idea of their prices for this kind of rental? Do you think they would be amenable to some sort of deal?

Please help me out.

Thanks.

Marc S.
 

Please read the FAQ for policies on posting, specifically not using "teaser" subject headers.

Moving to Ground Level.

I shall be more careful in the future. I appreciate everyone's input.

Marc S.
 

The coffeehouse/bar thing has been done before and some such venues have been quite successful. It really depends on the market and what, if any, competition exists (both for bars/coffeehouses and theatres). I'm sure that other people here can offer more ideas/suggestions/etc.
 

In these coffeehouse/bar/movies venues, I'm curious about the noise factor. Are the people who go to these places serious about seeing the movie? Do they carry on talking etc. during the movie? Will this disturb anyone? I realize this isn't really anything like a conventional movie theater, so I'm just curious what really goes on there while a film is playing.

 

Copyright law is a huge issue. While you would think that old films are all out-of-copyright, even minor restoration work may effectively put commonly available copies back on the protected list.

You might pick up old copies of films from collectors that would be safe, but the hassle of finding films and then defending them isn't worth it. The laws don't work towards supporting what you would like to do.

 

As far as equipment goes, I'm not necessarily intending to go with top-of-the-line 16mm projectors. Since the space will be fairly small (a 45-55 foot projection throw, max) I was hoping to use simply a nice portable projector, depending on what I can get my hands on. What do you mean by "the film rental is more expensive than theatrical 35mm"? 16mm non-theatrical is more expensive than 35mm theatrical? I guess I wouldn't expect that. Please tell me more.

David --

I intend to talk to Swank at some point but I thought I would ask you all first for advice, so I don't go in there ice cold. As far as noise factor, I think there is some allowance for atmospheric noise in the viewing area but not like the levels at a busy bar. I would be providing a space for people to hang out in if they found that the movies were not to their liking or if they have pressing business to attend to with associates.

Jerry --

I have considered 35mm but I thought 16mm might be easier to handle. It seems that may not be the case. Anyway, I wonder what kind of deal I could work out with distributors. Let's say I run 35mm theatrical. This would be independent features, documentaries, classics, and B-movies. No 1st-run or even 2nd-run stuff. Only stuff off the beaten track. The market is ripe for this type of venue. There aren't any venues of this sort in the city at all. The only thing that comes close to it is a monthly "Cinema in the City" event held by a local college film series. One night a month they show an old 16mm movie in a funky bar/cafe in the city. I basically want to take that idea (combined with a brew 'n' view model) into a permanent home. There are 2 theatres in town owned by Landmark and they would be my only competition in terms of "art house". However, I do not intend to ceompete with them directly as I won't be showing any 1st-run pictures.

So... do the distributors price based on seating capacity? Are older titles cheaper to rent? Are classics more expensive than unknowns? How do I find a rental price list and who should I go to for independents?

Thanks.

Marc S.

Thanks,
Marc S.
 

The moviegoers are expected to be serious about seeing the movie. The wandering in and out will be kept to a minimum. There will be specific showtimes and the film will be the main focus, not the background atmosphere.

During a shorts program, there may be several short intermissions in which the patrons are encouraged to talk amongst themselves about the film they just saw, get another drink, go to the bathroom, etc. The intermissions would be long enough to accomplish these tasks but short enough to satisfy the more serious and/or impatient viewers. Local DJs would spin ambient music before and after the shows at a low volume, to encourage discussion and loitering. Does that make it a little more clear?

Thanks.

Marc
 

This is where I think you may be making another error. A rare showing of something like this is an event. If it is repeated, the novelty factor will wear off and the audience will diminish unless you can target it more directly.

A person might go to an old army VD film with buddies as a lark and enjoy it. That person won't show up for a steady diet of it, nor is he likely to want to see the making of the Ma Bell microwave network or drilling for oil in 1940s Venezuela. You are using a scatter-gun approach at a time when the amusement dollar is already fragmented.

The "rights" to show older films are difficult to find. In some cases there may be disputes between various parties on who has those distribution rights. Swank might be able to help with some, but don't expect dirt cheap rates.

 

I don't think I've given an accurate picture of the programming. I agree that a steady diet of campy educational films would not fly. While those would be welcome on occasion, I would focus on more serious/current fare, both documentaries and features. One advantage of the location is that it is in a developing arts district.

I guess I should talk to Swank to see what kind of rates we are talking about! The only way I will know if this makes sense is to talk to the distributors and find out some hard costs. I was just hoping someone here could give me an idea of those costs up front based on the size/type of the theater.

Thanks.

Marc S.

 

Even if the motion picture itself is PD, there are usually other elements (story, screenplay, music score, music arrangement, sound recordings, etc.) which are still under copyright protection and whose owners could legitimately sue for infringement as a result of showing a "public domain" film.

As Jerry said, there is some stuff out there that is PD, but it won't be cheap to verify that status and defend yourself if it becomes an issue later on. This might work for a very occasional screening, but it isn't sustainable for a regular business. "Public performance rights" are a big deal; just because it is perfectly legal to own a film print or videotape of something (PD or not) does not mean that it is legal to exhibit it to the general public; whether admission is charged often has little to do with anything.

There probably aren't too many lawyers who read Film-Tech, so you should probably hire a local lawyer who understands copyright law and discuss this with him. Running anything that was not licensed directly from a distributor (even if it is believed to be PD) is risky.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

A friend told me about that theater in Portland just last week. He loved it. There's a similar theater in Chicago (I think it's called "Brew 'n' View", actually) and they do good business as well. That is, they sell a lot of tickets. Whether they're making any money is another story. That's what I'm trying to find out. I'm not looking to make buttloads of money, I just want to start something sustainable and add to the neighborhood and the city.

Marc S.
 

McMenamins operates 3 brewpub restaurants here in Eugene. Very popular. Two are in the U of O college district, the third is a more upscale location on the banks of the Willamette River. I have lunch at one of their places with buddies at least once a week. They have great microbrew too. I think McMenamins tried a brew/film thing here in Eugene about 10 years ago but it didn't fly for some reason. Might have been in the downtown Atrium building, if so, probably a bad location.

Start with a large fortune and run a single screen theatre dedicated to films no one want's to see.

I wouldn't show 16mm in anyting larger than a living room. It is an inferior format currently. 35mm or proper (read very expensive) video projection is far superior to a portable 16mm projector and as has been pointed out before a professional 16mm projector will cost you more than a good used 35mm set-up.

As much as I would love to run a successful single screen theatre, they are impractical these days. We run a 5-screen and don't have enough room to play the product available to us.

Be carefull and good luck.
 

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

-in poor physical condition (missing footage, splicy, scratched, etc)
-faded to pink (practically all pre-1983 Eastman prints are on their way to eternal redness by now- IB Tech, LPP (post-1983 Eastman) and some early Fuji prints will still have good color)
-virtually IMPOSSIBLE to get anymore in 35mm (one of the few advantages you would have with 16mm)
-rights are in legal limbo in many cases as studios go by the wayside (especially the B-movie mills)

Video is a completely different ball of wax. Color will be better but rights clearances are totally different than for regular theatrical as they are under a different license (a 'home use' license) and of course image quality will be substantially lower than 35 and even some 16 product.

Caveat Emptor.

-Aaron

 

My experience does not agree with yours. Do you actually have unfaded Fuji prints made before 1983? AFAIK, Kodak was the first to introduce a low fade cyan dye coupler for color print film developed with CD-2 color developer:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/about/chrono3.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/about/chrono4.shtml

BTW, even "old dye technology" prints of that era will have negligible fading if kept under the recommended long-term storage conditions specified in SMPTE Recommended Practice RP131.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

The Vic is mostly a live music venue. On the nights when no band is scheduled, they fill the open, tiered dance floor area with tables and chairs, staff the bar, and open the venue as the Brew & View. They typically have three different second-run features per night.

The Vic is one of the nicer, smaller theatres in Chicago for live music, and it isn't bad as a movie house.
 

First of all, I'm not going to be showing films "no one want's to see." I'm going to be showing films that *I* want to see, and that a lot of artists and intelligent people in the area want to see. I know I haven't been very clear about my programming, but it's hard to give you an idea of a season without booking a bunch of films and showing you the list. However, most of them you probably have never heard of if all you do is watch hollywood movies.

I already have some experience holding 16mm events in and around town and they are wildly popular. I've shown 16mm on an Elmo 16CL in warehouses with a 50-foot throw, and people love it. Sure, it's "technically unacceptable" to some... people who can't live without THX surround sound and stadium seating. But others appreciate the experience to see films that have either been forgotten or that provide them unexpectedly with insight. You could either chalk it up to a novelty or realize that the films I'm showing are unique in the live entertainment market in this area.

Besides, from a more practical standpoint, the markup on liquor (in addition to popcorn) should be enough to offset slow nights. Think of it primarily as a bar. The screenings are provided as an extra feature. Perhaps there will be screenings only on Friday and Saturday night. The rest of the week it's just a bar. Does that make more sense?

Marc S.

Ian --

Sorry if my last post sounded a little defensive. I didn't mean to imply that you only watch hollywood movies and can't appreciate independents, etc. I think someone else made a comment about educational films and it had seemed to me that maybe I hadn't been clear about the programming.

In any case, I saw you in the pictures of the Nugget Theater in Telluride. That looks like a very cool theater and probably close in size/style to the one I would like to open. I don't suppose there are any pictures of the auditorium anywhere?

Take it easy.

Marc S.
 

I have a 1972-datecoded Fuji 'Charlotte's Web' trailer with PERFECT color(and it is not IB), and no apparent signs of the fabled 'Fuji Rot'.

-Aaron

Recipe for disaster right there. You don't book movies just because *you and your circle of friends and colleagues* like them if you plan on going anywhere with this. The only people that will even bother coming will be exactly those you named. And i guarantee they will want everything free or greatly discounted, since you are their 'buddy'... Been there, Done that.

On second thought, you say you are planning on running this as a bar/cafe first with movies as an added gimmick... Maybe it will work, however I would just go with video or 16mm and *DO NOT* charge admission of any kind as many other bars have done (and most likely totally ignoring exhibition licenses, but what the hey, its a BAR.)

>> it's hard to give you an idea of a season without booking a bunch of films and showing you the list.<<

Make up a sample list of what you plan on playing here and we can advise you on what might even be available let alone feasible. It's THAT easy.

>>However, most of them you probably have never heard of if all you do is watch hollywood movies.<<

This was directed at Ian, and I am inclined to reply:

Ian (and his business partner Ky Boyd) operate a 5-screen ARTHOUSE. In the several years they have been operating they have had VERY FEW 'Hollywood' movies in that plex.

My .02

-Aaron

Yes, I realize that Ian runs a 5-screen arthouse. I've seen the pictures, too.

Anyway, your message intrigues me. Are there bars that charge no cover and simply dispense with exhibition rights? Surely this is a way to get in big trouble? Especially if showing more coveted titles such as "Wizard of Oz", to use an extreme example? (Not like I have my hands on a 16mm print of that, anyway...)

Well, I think that I have to decide whether or not to go full force with the film aspect or not. If I do, it will be 35mm "arthouse" fare + B-Movies + classics + other indies. I would probably get help booking. I would show films during the week and have live entertainment on the weekends, or vice versa.

I guess I'll stop boring you with my ideas, I don't seem to be making any progress. This industry is very complicated! =P

Marc S.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

Thanks for the words of encouragement. The reason I came here to ask questions is because clearly you all have much more experience in the business than I do. I don't blame you for asking the tough questions, these are questions that I will have to answer. I do feel that it is still worth looking into. I will talk to a few distributors and some friends in the theater business and come back to you all with more details.

Thanks!

Marc S.

P.S. Some acquaintances of mine opened the Ragtag Cinemacafe in Columbia, MO. It is very similar to what I would like to do, except in a bigger city. Check out their website for kicks: www.ragtagfilm.com
 

I'm still puzzled. Are you sure the date code is on the print film, or could they be a print-through from the negative onto a much more recent print?

Fuji's 1982 publication "General Properties of Fuji Motion Picture Films" (MP 3-3E), states on page 38: "An ideal color film storage temperature is below -18 Celsius (0 F)...Storage at temperatures below 10C (50F) is also acceptable as a compromise." IMHO, this recommendation would not indicate total confidence in their image stability. Maybe the person you bought the trailer from actually followed Fuji's cold storage recommendation?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

If you plan on doing something like this (read: showing similar titles), you will HAVE to install a 35mm setup.

Another problem you *will* have would be competition from any major operator in the area. It doesn't matter how 'independent' you are, the film companies ignore that fact and will book the product (to include arthouse fare in many cases) to the big boys first. If there are any Landmark theatres or well-established arthouses in the area its a certainty that they will have first dibs on everything. You might be able to get some of the product subrun however.

We aren't here to 'Bash' you or your idea, many of us are speaking from experience of what works, what doesn't, and how to go about trying what you intend to try... The 70s and 80s are over, and the exhibition indusrty and the distributors have changed with the times. This is why you don't see repertory theatres and dollar houses dotting the countryside like they did in the late 70s/early 80s... It's just not the same anymore. When the indusrty changed, the rep houses and most of the dollar houses couldn't compete with the ever-shrinking first-run-to-video window that was threatening all of the subrun portion of the industry. Many people have inquired about wanting to reopen a cute little closed theatre and many have tried with disastrous results, some manage to scrape by and some others succeed greatly. Part of that is the market and part of it is experience. Many of these 'cute little closed theatres' are closed for a reason.

the times, they have a-changed...

John P: I am pretty sure it is an original trailer. I will have to get a better look at it to be sure.

-Aaron

Since we have been in business we have been surprised with some truths. We are trying to run this theatre on the up and up. First year we grossed $1 million dollars and managed to lose only $60,000 of it. This past year we grossed $1.4 million and eked out a profit, which the government took 40% of. This year we are on track to double our business and profit. It is very unusual for a new business to profitable in its second year; this bodes well for our future. By all accounts we are wildly successful. Our investors are happy, the film companies are happy and yet there are a few problems.

Sonoma County being so high rent, I am unable to purchase a home here. I can't at the moment afford new car payments. Thank God I don't have any children, as I would be unable to afford to raise them. My 15 years on the film exhibition industry have taught me some facts. It is very hard to get rich in this business where everybody is in for a percentage. Economies of scale rule. This is why everybody is building 14-plexes and more. So unless you get that single screen theatre for a laughably low rent or lease, I don't see anybody making enough money to cover expenses with film.

Now, I am totally ignorant on the economics of running a bar. Perhaps a bar alone would be sufficient to cover expenses and return a profit. But even most bar owners and restaurant owners I have heard are successful run multiple locations. That will be our secret to success as well.

With one exception, I am unaware of a for profit single screen theatre opening in my lifetime. I have seen single screen theatres opened and quickly closed again. I have also seen exactly two single screen theatre restored to their former glory and run as non-profits. The one exception is a single screen art house a guy opened in Oregon. He built it in an old gas station and is able to run it himself, so his staff costs are very low.

Thanks for responding. To answer one of your concerns: Yes, rent is ridiculously cheap. Real estate is ridiculously cheap. In fact, I am looking into buying a 10,000 S.F. concrete and masonry building built in 1904, fully sprinklered and with 600 A / 240V 3-phase electrical service. There is a lot of ornamental stonework around the facade. Also includes a 2-car garage (!!). There is an empty parking lot half a block away. Anyway, the price? $175,000. Now, I haven't conducted any feasibility studies, but this is to give you an idea of basic cost. I am figuring an additional $125,000 for renovations and equipment. This is totally just a ballpark. But in St. Louis you can buy historic buildings in redeveloping areas for pennies on the dollar. There are several large commercial buildings available in my neighborhood for under $80k. I guess this overabundance of real estate is one more reason why the idea of a cinema/bar interests me...

...as far as programming. If I were to run programming similar to Ragtag Cinemacafe, yes I would be competing with Landmark Theatres (which I used to work for). Something to think about. Is there such a thing as a second-run arthouse?

Marc S.

 

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Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
 

(The web page says the running time for The Rookie is 1 hr 5 mins. Could that be 2 hrs. 5 mins. maybe?)
 

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A KIWI eats,roots & Leaves.
 

Landmark recently took over a single-screen in St. Louis -- one with some history behind it, I might add.

------------------
Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
 

Yes, very nice, I checked out the pictures as well. It is good to hear that you have loyal customers and that your attention to detail is appreciated. I am hoping that my concept will also attract a crowd that wants a more unique viewing experience and takes pride in supporting a local independently-owned operation. The style of my theatre, of course, would be completely different, but in its own way, unique. I am looking at a building tomorrow that looks very promising.

Charles --

I'd love to hear about the project in New Jersey. I will e-mail you off list. I'm aware of the Hi-Pointe sale and have to admit that I was disappointed to hear that Landmark is expanding in my area, because of course that means more competition. There is another historic theater in town called the Avalon that is now under review for restoration, though the plans are in their early stages and definitely not a sure thing.

Marc S.