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Adam Fraser www.pinestheatre.com
The distributor hires special equipment and a team of installation/operation personnel and they tour with the movie.
"Let's get this show on the road" (when used literally) = "Roadshow."
~Manny (not just for breakfast anymore.)
Road show presentations was a special exclusive showing of a film in a major city and tickets were obtained exactly the same way as concert tickets are sold today. All seats were reserved and you were able to buy tickets weeks in advance and select the seats you want. Road shows have been around for a very long time. "GONE WITH THE WIND", "DUAL IN THE SUN", "QUO VADIS". "SAMSON & DELILAH" and "THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH" are some of the earlier ones I remember when I was a kid. All of the earlier 70mm films with the exception of Disney's "SLEEPING BEAUTY" were all presented as road shows starting with "OKLAHOMA' and followed by "AROUND THE WORLD IN 80 DAYS" and so many others. THe last road show presentation I remember was "TORA! TORA! TORA! in 1970. All of the Cinerama films and the last two from MGM were also road show pictures. All road show films started with an overture. Than there was the entre'acte, a music segment after the intermission and music when people left the theatre. The music track was on opaque film and played behind a closed curtain. One of the pet peeve I have when these wonderful road show pictures are released to home video are those stupid titles cards that reads "OVERTURE" during that segment, "ENTR'ACTE" during the intermission music and "EXIT MUSIC". These title cards were not part of the original theatrical presentation and I feel it only takes away the mood of the film in my opinion. After the film had completed it's reserved seat engagements, it was released to regular theatres at popular prices a few months later. When the film went into general release, some projectionist did play the film exactly as the way they were presented during it's road show engagement because all general release prints were not edited except for some films such as "IT'S A MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD WONDERFUL WORLD", "THE ALAMO" and a few others when their original running time was cut to accommodate exhibitors who wanted to schedue more shows during it's general engagements or for some other reasons. If the management and the projectionis lacked true true showmanship, all of the opaque footage with the music and the intermission title card was removed and the film was presented without any pause. The Waipahu, my favorite neighborhood theatre in my home town always played road show films exactly as the way they were originally presented and this made me very happy.
-Claude
Roadshow version:
70mm 6-track mag
No trailers, no rolling stock
Overture music
An intermission
Entr'acte music
Extended version of Blue Danube walkout music for several minutes after the end of the credits
Limited release with hard ticketing/reserved seating
Theatre program booklets available
Usually some sort of related display in the lobby
Regular version:
35mm 'scope
Optical sound (I guess there were mag/op prints too)
Trailers and/or rolling stock
No overture
No intermission, hence no entr'acte music
Blue Danube music cuts off right after end of credits
Wide release, general or open seating, no reservations
No theatre programs, no lobby displays
This is just one example. For other films I'm sure the differences were different.
Paul
All of the titles you had mentioned were indeed road show releases except two. I am almost positive that "CAROUSEL" and "THE BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI" were put into general release by both Fox and Columbia Pictures. Both of the movies played at the once beautiful Waikiki Theatre at standard prices and I remember seeing "BRIDGE ON THERIVER KWAI" with friends the 2nd week it had opened. I also remember seeing "CAROUSEL" at the Waikiki. By the way, "CAROUSEL" was the first film photographed in CinemaScope 55 but never publicly shown in that format anywhere and so was the other R&H musical filmed in that format, "THE KING & I" . "THE KING & I" was also put into general release and was shown at the Kuhio, our road show theatre in Honolulu at that time.
-Claude
It would not be uncommon, especially back in 1950s, to see people dress up for a showing, even on a Saturday afternoon. Since roadshow engagements were limited to your larger cities, I am sure that a lot of people may have had to travel an hour or two to see the film.
My favorite roadshow engagements included:
"Oklahoma!"
"South Pacific"
"Ben-Hur"
"My Fair Lady"
"Mutiny On The Bounty"
"Windjammer"
"It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World"
"Doctor Zhivago"
"The Sound of Music"
"Hawaii"
"The Sand Pebbles"
One would usually be greeted by an uniformed usher and escorted to seats. There might be a free "Playbill" type program, and usually a larger program was available in the lobby. The picture would usually start with an overture, with slightly dimmed lights and a closed curtain. Then the performance would start with the lights dimming completely out and the often huge image taking over the screen.
There was almost always an intermission, with Entr'Acte music played usually a minute or two before the picture restarted, and exit music played after the picture ended (also like a traditional Broadway musical). So, going to a roadshow presentation was a REALLY big deal. People planned these visits around birthdays and other holidays.
Almost all 3-Strip CINERAMA presentations were Roadshows. With the first one THIS IS CINERAMA, they even used the trick of having a very bland overture, then starting the presentation with Lowell Thomas on a very small screen. When Lowell said, "THIS IS CINERAMA" the giant screen kicked in, the full stereo started up and away it went. In 1952, this was an amazing thing.
Roadshows died out in the '70's, as the movies moved to the suburbs. It's something a lot of us miss.
When the Cumberland4 opened in the early 80's it featured for a while the largest auditorium as a hard ticket policy and was called LaReserve
At the cinesphere we run most of our non summer season shows on a hard ticket
A very interesting note about "HAWAII" that you had mentioned as one of your favorite road show films. My late father was a professional carpenter when the movie was photographed on the Waianae coast here on the island of Oahu and he helped build the sets. When the film was completed, United Artist felt that the picture was too big to have it's world premiere in Honolulu and I think the first showing was in New York City at the Rivoli. Not only did Hawaii not get the world premiere, the 70mm equipped Kuhio Theatre ran a 35mm print with a monaural optical soundtrack during it's road show engagement in Honolulu. I understand that the film was released in 70mm during it's road show engagement and there were also four track mag stereo prints available in 35mm. If that was not a 'kick in the pants', I dont know what is.
-Claude
During intermission, which occurred right after Lawrence crossed a desert, entered the officer's club and orders "Two Lemonades", I used to drain both sides of a five-gallon bubbler full of lemonade.
I loved running that movie.
We ran Lawrence of Arabia in 70mm with a Ballantyne Pro 35/70, Potts 35/70 platter, Strong lamphouse in ORC orange? (Might have been a prototype) We had a CP200 with Hafler amps (They kept blowing over the years), JBL speakers (unfortunately with homemade surrounds) we used to sub bass cabinets for the left and right extra channels. And finally, I am ashamed to admit, we had to use a magnacom for the lens.
The Ballantyne has gone to projector purgatory and was replaced with a Century JJ. The Haflers have all died and were replaced with QSC MX1500s. The platter keeps ticking over and the speakers are the same. I hear that they upgraded the surrounds to JBL 8340s when they installed SDDS.
Did you run "LAWRENCE OF ARABIA" in 70mm or 35mm?
Paul,
For many years after "HAWAII" was shown in 35mm Mono during it's Hawaiian road show engagement, I always thought it was presented that way at all theatres. I recall reading about George Roy Hill, the director wanting to shoot the movie in 65mm but settled on 35mm to cut cost but I was very surprised and very disappointed that the movie was shown in 35mm mono during it's local road show engagement. It was only after I had bought the laserdisc of "HAWAII" that I had learned that there were indeed 70mm stereo prints and available only in cities such as Los Angeles and New York. The laserdisc which I still have is superb and presented in the original 35mm Panavision 2.35.1 aspect ratio with Dolby Pro Logic sound. Although the laserdisc is very good, I cannot wait to get my hands on the DVD when it is eventually released by MGM/UA with a remixed 5.1 stereo soundtrack.
-Claude
If your laserdisc version of "Hawaii" is the same as the one I had, it is the extended roadshow version. The 35mm general release cut quite a bit out. I think we are all familiar that when a roadshow release ended and the general release started, many movies were edited severely to cut the film's running time. In the case of "South Pacific", and probably others, the cuts were made to the original camera negative and subsequently lost.
I re edited my original post on this topic and did comment about the reason why some films were edited for general release. Please go back and read it.
What happened to your laserdisc of "HAWAII" when you said "had"? I have had several good offers from some of my other friends who also have a leserdisc library for my copy but I just cannot part with it. I think the reason has a lot to do with my father playing an actual part in the production of the film when he helped with the construction of the sets.
-Claude
For example, I only have 35mm capability in my theatre, but when I run 2001, to use Paul's example, I guarantee my presentation is every bit as "special" as the recent 70mm restored presentation that I saw at the Loew's Astor Plaza in NYC. They had no curtain, they cut the intermission and ran the first three or four minutes out of frame; when they "corrected" the misframe, they didn't center the image fully and the bottom frameline (replete with splice flashes) was visible throughout the entire film. How nice that they got it ALMOST in focus. The sound had very bad flutter from the first frame to the last. They had coming attractions and (Mr. Kubrick, please forgive us our tresspasses) showed screen ads before the film. There was no projectionist in the booth (except on Fridays, I was told).
This was a roadshow title and a fully restored roadshow print to match (at least before the Loew's hatchetmen cut it up, planted dirt all over it and put big emulsion gashes in it), but it certainly was not a roadshow presentation.
I only have 35mm 4 track mag, but with lots of years of work and tweaking, it sounds breathtaking. My focus is as good as can be gotten with a 35mm print which, in the case of 2001, was struck before the era of high speed prints and multiple interstage steps, so all those early titles shot on 65mm neg look really spectacular when reduction printed to 35mm. In short, my 35mm presentation of 2001 is as "roadshow" as you can get.
When I ran CAMELOT, it was the full verson print (there were some versions floating around for years that had almost 40 minutes deleted) with 4trk mag and IBTech, but the music-in-black (pre, inter, and exit) were missing. I went so far as to burn those sections from the Laserdisc onto CD and used them via non-sync, covering the sections missing from the print. Did this for each and every show.
There is a sign up on the wall in our rewind room -- MAKE VERY SHOW LOOK LIKE A ROADSHOW. It helps to have an art-deco, 2500 seat single screen theatre with curtains, curtain warmers and a staff that goes the extra mile to make the patron feel like we actually WANT them in our theatre.
Roadshow today is mostly attitude.
You are absolutely correct about road shows not limited to 70mm presentations because there were couple that were released in flat 35mm. One film that comes to mind was even in black and white and that was Stanley Kramer's "JUDGMENT AT NUREMBERG" in 1961. Another one was George Steven's "GIANT" released the same year as another road show "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" in 1956. As I had mentioned in my original post yesterday, there were many in the forties that were all flat long before 70mm and 35mm scope films. A few others that I did not mention yesterday was "IVANHOE" in 1953 starring Robert Taylor and "PORTRAIT OF JENNIE' with Joseph Cotton in 1949. Because I was very young, I never saw these road show pictures during their premiere engagements at the Kuhio but I did get to see them all when they went into general release at my hometown theatre, the Waipahu.
BY the way, Frank
The industry needs more people like you. If I only lived near you, your theatre is the one I will frequent the most because I know I will be able to count on a very professional film presentation.
-Claude
The Hawaii laserdisc (and VHS) was a remix to stereo from the original stems. The theatrical release was indeed mono, and MGM/UA Home video even stated this in the press release for the laserdisc, that it was the first time the movie was ever released or heard in a stereo format. The 70mm prints were in the standard 6-track mag stripe format, but only contained a mono mix. Whether that mono mix was put on one, three, or all five of the stage channels, I don't know.
-Claude
And Claude, thanks for the compliment. It really is just about trying to capture the fascination and wonder that I experienced as a kid. Successive generations shouldn't be robbed of what we had. Those of us old enough have seen it done to perfection know what that movie-going experience was like back then; for me, it's just a matter of trying to do it just as well today.
I listen to the younger members of this forum and I think the tradition is still in good hands.
Previously, Dolby had been used in various stages of dubbing and re-mixing, but was not actually applied to release prints prior to 1973, at least not in the U.S.
-Claude
Did all the sub-runs in Canada and second tier markets play Tommy in Quintaphonic?
What they don't seem to grasp is that the ONLY reason the public purchases pay-per-view, video rentals, DVDs, VHS tape is because the THEATRICAL play generated excitement in the public. If a film is rejected by the public at the Box Office, then forget about it making millions in the video market. There are no lines at Blockbusters to rent a box office flop.
What the young turks at in Hollywood don't seem to understand is that there was a reason the bigger films started off as Roadshow releases, playing, as Bill pointed out, for upwards of two years in the roadshow theatres. As well as the obvious economic advantage of being able to charge higher ticket prices, it built up anticipation on the part of the public to see the film. I remember a marketing logo that one of the companies, can;t remember which, used on the bottom of all their ads: "MOVIES....everyone should have one to look forward to." It was a very effective marketing system.
After the roadshow run was over, it went to the first run "flagship" theatres in Key Cities (the roadshow houses still playing it in most cases). The engagements in first run houses would vary, but it was not uncommon to see a big release still playing in the first run theatres for months. After that it went into general release playing the neighborhood theatres, and even there, there was a tier of the "first" of the general run theatres and then the sub-run or underbelly as they were sometimes called, which got a title perhaps a few weeks to a few months after the general release, but after the distribs ad campaign was over. Sometimes titles could be booked into the older subrun or rep houses years afterward, until that is, the distrib decided to "pull it from service." Then no one could book it. Is it because the distrib didn't want to make any more money on? No....because they wanted to withdraw it from the public so it could be re-released again, starting the whole cycle over again. I believe GONE WITH THE WIND was released every 7 years, always to great effect, until that is, it succumbed to video overexposure.
There really is no reason why the industry cannot look at that model of an extended pattern of release times and recognize how much excitement it could engender in the paying public, even today. It would naturally have to be adjusted for today's market, but extending release play times may actually increase, not lessen, the public's desire to see a title in the theatre and even later on video.
Of course you have to have enough theatres that the public perceive as "roadshow quality" and then enough that are "flagship quality" in order to generate this kind of excitement. And you have to get rid of the corporate mindset that says, unless a film makes a trillion dollars on the first weekend, it's a failure.
Hmmm, I guess that dooms it from the giddyap, eh?
The tag line for the Cinerama Dome was
"Where Movie Going is an Event"
quote:
What the young turks at in Hollywood don't seem to understand is that there was a reason the bigger films started off as Roadshow releases, playing, as Bill pointed out, for upwards of two years in the roadshow theatres.
It's a different day and age now. Could "Stars Wars Episode II", "Spider-man", or "Titanic" have made more money if released through a long roadshow cycle? I don't think so. A lot more money is spent today on marketing pictures just for that big opening weekend to create an event. No studio is willing to risk its investment, no matter how good they think their product may be, on just "word-of-mouth" and reserved seats. No studio is wanting a slow revenue stream, either, to pay off their huge investment. In "the old days", they may not have had the choice.
Unfortunately, the film musical genre is also dead, save "Moulin Rouge!".
And where would you put a roadshow picture today? The local IMAX is the closest thing we have to a true roadshow theatrical environment. Without curtains and warmers, no less! A roadshow presentation has to be vastly superior to the ordinary movie fare. That is pretty hard to do today with large screens, stadium seating, and the typical digital surround sound systems. The world is moving a lot faster today than it use to. Thankfully now, we have DVD to revive our past roadshow experiences, if but in a limited, small scale way.
Disney seems to be the one studio that see the value of its cinematic history. As for the rest of the conglomerates, there is not enough continuity in the heads of the companies any more for them to see value in anything that isn't going to rake in money for them in the short term.
Re: Disney's marketing ploy of saying that a particular title will be in video stores only for a short time, "then it's gone for good," I always wondered what would happen if a video store purchased thousands of DVDs or VHS tapes of a Disney release that the company claimed "once this is gone, it is gone." Then when everyone else has sold all their copies, this guy goes into the back room and pulls out a box of DVDs that he's been saving and puts up a big sign in his store front proclaiming, "You might not be able to find Disney's (insert any animated feature title) anywhere else, but we've got it here at Joe Shmoe's Video Outlet" First purchase ownership applies here, not copyright laws -- and by law he, has the right to sell them anytime he wants to anyone he wants, right? I wonder how the Disney people would react when they don't get their way and see a guy bucking their marketing strategy. If they couldn't stop him legally, you know for sure they won't ever sell DVDs to him again, although that probably would be a restraint of trade issue. Personally,I think they would just hire hit men and have him shot.
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Frank
And I can't feel too sorry for you out there in LA -- at least you have an occasional 70mm festival -- out here on the east coast it is CONSTANT famine.
quote:
There uses to be this great 70mm logo -- a very wide rectangle with the words 70mm and lines extending from the center. It was put in the display ads and you immediately recognized which theatres had the 70mm prints.
Like one of these? NOTE CREDIT AT BOTTOM OF THIS POST
Then there's the one that's never appeared in print but would be a sight to behold if it ever did:
During the "golden age" of 70mm blowups, the first place I would always go in Friday's LA Times was the movie listings. I always looked forward to seeing a new movie display ad with an enclosed box at the top listing the theaters showing the movie in 70mm and having one of these logos (usually the first one).
NOTE: These low-res images were re-sized (reduced) from hi-res files originally created by Bobby Henderson. Lines in the top image are actually supposed to be solid. The quality of Bobby's original artwork is much better than you see here.
quote:
I heard that CABARET was mixed in Dolby A stereo but somehow the encoding wasn't calibrated correctly and they just went with mono optical tracks.
Cabaret in Dolby? Didn't this production predate Dolby Stereo? Mixing in Dolby but releasing in optical mono sounds more like what happened with Excalibur.
quote:
Mike, As I answered in an earlier post in this thread, Cabaret was a mag/optic release that pre-dated Dolby SVA prints.
Paul,
I know. It was a rhetorical question, and I wanted to mention Excalibur.
By the way, there may have been 70mm prints of Cabaret in some international markets (Spain, for instance). Whether they were stereo or mono, I don't know.
It should also be noted that the term "roadshow" is really a carry-over from live stage and vaedeville days. A roadshow was a large traveling company that brought a touring show to local theatres as opposed to the local company of actors doing a new show.
These traveling roadshows were a big deal that brought with them extra promotion, reserved seat tickets at a higher price, etc. When theateres switched from stage shows to movies, they simply carried over this method of promotion for bigger movies. In the early days of silent and sound movies, the big hits were presented in this way. Often an advance publicity man from the studio came to town weeks in advance to set up the reserved seat ticket sales and promotions. The theatres were encouraged to build special displays, roof signs, post billboards, etc. The first engagements of BIRTH OF A NATION were handled in this way. The theatres were encouraged to hire extra musicians for this silent film. In the 1930's A MIDSUMMER'S NIGHT DREAM was also promoted on a roadshow basis.
The other difference most veteran managers will remember is that the theatre's usual pass list was always suspended for roadshows. Most circuit passes always had fine print on the bottom saying "Not good for roadshow engagements."
p.
But still, "Camelot" was one of the sweetest failures of my life. -I enjoyed every screening, even if i was allmost alone in the house.
p.
70MM DONE WRONG
The Cinerama Dome damaged some of the print of "Lawrence of Arabia"
and started one of the shows with the film flopped.
Remembering 70MM Done Right
I saw "Camelot" in 70MM at the Dome in First Run, I always enjoyed it.
We ran the studio 4 Track print a few years ago at the Fairfax Theatre
in Los Angeles. It still looked great, we tried to get the 70MM studio
print but it was beet red. What a shame.
quote:
The New 70MM print of "Lord Jim" that played the Egyptian Theatre in Hollywood was presented in 3 Track Stereo ,not 6 Track Stereo.
Was this a mag print, or a DTS one? I know Patton and Hello Dolly were both run in "special venue" DTS and 2001 in MAG. Hello Dolly was truly magnificent in 70mm, BTW. 2001 was marred by black scratches that ran throughout, but was still enjoyable.
The great quality being reported with "Hello Dolly!" and "Patton" shows that 30+ year old 65mm color negatives are holding up well with proper storage.------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
I have heard a few "horror stories" of 65mm original negatives and 70mm prints being stored in totally unconditioned warehouses or storage sheds, sometimes under the hot Southern California sun. Watch the documentary of the Harris/Katz restoration of "My Fair Lady" to see the sad 
state of affairs before studios recognized the value of their older films.
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
One of the fun moments at Gilboys, was going through the 70MM cases
& looking at the old labels (shipping & special titles labels) from
when the print or prints played.
It really isn't that hard to provide better (cooler and dryer) storage conditions that would greatly improve film longevity:
http://www.rit.edu/~661www1/sub_pages/8page20.htm
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
quote:
Was [Lord Jim] a mag print, or a DTS one?
DTS.
I am waiting to hear back from my friend.
He talked with someone who did the restore on the picture.
That person said that the film was a 3 Track Stereo mix.
That was the way Columbia released. Columbia did that with "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" (L/C/R). As soon as I hear back from him, I will post the info. He knows his business on sound and film.
He Does Film Right.
quote:
MichaelI am waiting to hear back from my friend.
He talked with someone who did the restore on the picture.
That person said that the film was a 3 Track Stereo mix.
That was the way Columbia released. Columbia did that with "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" (L/C/R). As soon as I hear back from him, I will post the info. He knows his business on sound and film.
He Does Film Right.
Bill,
I apologize in advance if I have misinterpreted the intent and tone of your post. That said, what is it you are seeking to confirm and relay to me??? I don't recall asking you any questions on this topic.... A question was asked in this thread by another member concerning the audio format (magnetic or digital) of the new 70mm print of Lord Jim to which I responded since (a) I knew the answer, and (b) no other forum members had yet responded. You don't actually think the print was mag, do you? I was at the screening...I know the projectionists...I visited the booth...I saw the print...
And regarding the 3-track thing, the original question wasn't regarding the channel layout, so I didn't address it. But it seems like you're implying to me that the print couldn't have been DTS because it was "only" 3-channel instead of five or six.
Regarding 3-track mixes. I think history has revealed that quite a few movies were mixed and released in this fashion. Columbia Pictures (and other studios) may have used that approach on numerous films, but what evidence exists to show that all of their multi-channel films were done in that manner, as you suggest? 35mm prints of The Guns Of Navarone and Lawrence Of Arabia were both 4-track (L-C-R-S), weren't they? And what about the numerous productions of theirs that were mixed and released mono (many of which were released in 70mm blow-up internationally)?
Paul Linfesty wrote:
quote:
But wouldn't HELLO DOLLY have been originally mixed with three stage channels in mind, and only at the last stage, be "faked" uip to 5 stage channels? The original release of LOA was done this way. I thought most 70mm films from the mid sixties on were done in this manner (up through Baby-Boom Dolby format films).
Paul,
You were at the screening of Hello, Dolly!, what did it sound like to you? To my ears, it seemed to have five genuine stage channels. The directionalized dialgue often seemed to emanate from channels two and/or four (the inner side channels rather than the extreme sides). At least that is what it sounded like to me from where I was seated.
In speaking with one of the American Cinematheque/Egyptian Theatre projectionists recently regarding the recent 70mm screenings, Patton was in a five stage channel layout, as well. 2001: A Space Odyssey (70mm mag print), on the other hand, appears to have been "faked-up" from three to five stage channels (though I bet this will be disputed by the experts out there!).
Similar to my comments above regarding 3-track mixes, history has revealed that quite a few of the original era "70mm Six-Track" productions didn't have genuine six-track mixes; many appear to have been three- or four-track (maybe even some two-tracks, and others seem to have even been mono). This seems to have been done on a title-by-title basis. I'm not sure that it would be safe to assume or guess which films from a particular studio or from a particular year range were mixed one way or the other. I know I don't wish to take a stab trying to guess which ones were in which format! Obviously, if one knew a particular mixing facility was equipped, say, only for four-track (such as some facilities in the U.K., hence the four-track status of some British productions) then one could figure out the mix status of certain films. But without knowing the mixing facility or seeing some documentation or speaking with the mixers (and even that's never conclusive when memory comes into play), one would have to deal with this on a title-by-title basis.
Yes, I was just checking with my friend who was at the screening also.
About what Paul asked. Last week he called and told me about the shows. Thats when he told me about the audio mix. How is Paul Rayton
over at the Egyptian. I work with him in Westwood.
quote:
To my ears, it seemed to have five genuine stage channels. The directionalized dialgue often seemed to emanate from channels two and/or four (the inner side channels rather than the extreme sides). At least that is what it sounded like to me from where I was seated.
I have to be honest here. I'm not sure I would have the aural sophistication to be able to tell between 5 "genuine" stage channels and the so-called "European" method of creating 5 stage channels from 3. Obviously, regardless of how they were initially recorded, they were certainly being reproduced from 5 stage channels. I was in the balcony for both shows, and for 2001, WAY on the upper right-hand corner (next to a post holding up the rear surrounds). I have been under the assumption the genuine 5 channel mixes had died out completely, but I certainly have no direct knowledge to that effect, and certainly defer to those who do.
Bill, I'm convinced McKenna's Gold (also Columbia)had a surround track, based on a rather cutting remark by the NY Times reviewer at the time of release. I'm not sure I would use Guess Who's Coming to Dinner as an example of a studio's mix policy, since this was a small scale drama in 1.85 (I only remember first learning this title was originally released in 3-channel from reading the back of the DVD case).
I also may be misinterpreting that the "faked" method was employed for LOA. My interpretation is based on a "projected finishing schedule" reproduced in the book "Lawrence of Arabia" by L. Robert Morris and Lawrence Raskin. This list shows the following:
Nov. 16 3-Track stereo stereo dub complete.
Nov. 23 4-Track stereo and 35mm and F.V. dubs and transfers complete.
Nov. 23 Send show print for striping and 6 track stereo recording.
Nov. 30 View final show 70mm print
Yes, I seam to remember surround in the "McKenna's Gold". I also
remember surround in Columbia's 4 Track prints of "Guns of Navarone".
It was in the last reel. We ran a late show in the mid 80's of "Guns
of Navarone" (4 Track) in the Chinese main house. The only reason
I stated "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" was it was the first title
to pop in my head. Another film that had a good 4 Track print was
"All That Jazz".
Paul
Off topic, for a moment on CinemaTours. You have a comment on the
Los Angeles mystery theatre. On Pico Blvd. there was a total of
14 walk-ins and one drive-in. (1930-1980)
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Let's clear up the question at least about 2001. I can tell unequivocally that 2001 was a standard 5 channels behind the screen with a single surround channel mix; I am assuming that is what we are meaning when referring to "genuine" 5 channel sound.
Not at all. I'm referring to a common practice in the sixties of mixing for a 70mm film using only three stage channels instead of 5 as a way of reducing time in the mixing/re-recording stage. Then, an additional step is taken where the sum of L and C is used (at less volume) to create a LC track and the sum of C and R are used to create a RC track. Whether this happens for a pre-print or actually is recorded at the time of sounding the print, I don't know. The film print will have the standard 5 screen channels, however, and should be reproduced as such. With films like this, however, theatres with three stage channels could ignore these additional tracks. This method has been referred to the "European" method, but spread to widespread use in the U.S. I have no idea which titles used it and which didn't, but I'm willing to believe most 35mm to 70mm blow-ups employed this method. Some 70mm titles that used it included 2001 (I've seen several references to this), Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines, and Sound of Music.
Now, I will admit the directional dialog did seem to be far more natural (and subtle) on Hello Dolly then on an almost "jumping" effect on 2001. Is this a sign of the skill of the mixer, or of the type of re-recording used (genuine 5-channel vs. 3channels "faked up")?
Mac Kenna - both 70 and 35mag had a very lively surround track - not only effect sounds, but the main song, Old Turkey Buzzard came "from upstairs".
Dolly had a beautiful use of all five front channels - including dialogue -- Think back: Reel one, with the young couple argueing with Walther Matthau, while the barber tries to do his job: They are running around from speaker to speaker very natural. "Thank You for the honor of Your visit" -SLAM ! (slam in far right ch.)
Those mag. men - almost no surround sound hearable - but something there was...
In Denmark, we never (until "Hook", i think) saw a test loop, and therefore never had the opportunity to adjust for a specific print, giving not the best results. -The Great Race (Warner / Blake Edwards 1965) ran for months a the first run theatre without anybody ever hearing a sound from the surround, -and so again at the 1975 reissue (same print). I ran in in between, and knew, the surround was filled with effects and music, and after a visit in the booth during intermission, and a screwdriver used just on the feeling - there it was. 70mm mag sound always had bad conditions around here. I think, we could have had much better screenings than we ever had, if techs and management had been more eager, then...
p.
We ran a 70MM of "The Great Race" in the mid 80's at the Chinese.
The surrounds on the opening credit cards sounded great.
"Hello Dolly" had a wonderful full 5 on stage mix.
Here is the answer from my friend. Both "Hello Dolly" & "Lord Jim"
were presented in DTS. "Lord Jim" was 3 Track only (no surround).
Allegedly thats the original mix and Columbia did not want to
temper with it.
Bill
"We at Warner Brothers are extremely modest, when talking about "The Great Race", -but we'll have to admit........." and so on
-quote from the trailer - which was in glorious 70mm !!
Thats roadshow treatment !
I'd like to elaborate on this discussion, for those interested, by quoting a portion of audio engineer and professor Tomlinson Holman's book 5.1 Surround Sound: Up And Running (2000/Focal Press). This passage, along with Steve Kraus's clear and informative explanation posted previous to this, will (hopefully) help clear up the myth that Dolby Labs "forced" the industry to abandon five screen-channel mixes in favor of a three-channel approach. It seems to me that Dolby's efforts were, in many ways, a welcome improvement.
"The beginnings of the idea [creating low frequency enhancement/effects in a 70mm mix] seem to have come up in 1977 from the requirements of Gary Kurtz, producer of a then little-known film called Star Wars. At the time, it seemed likely that there would be inadequate low-frequency headroom in the three front channels in theaters to produce the amount of bass that seemed right for a war in space (waged in a vacuum!). A problem grew out of the fact that by the middle 1970's, multichannel film production used only three front channels—left, center, and right (two 'extra' loudspeaker channels called Left Extra and Right Extra, in between left and center, and center and right, were used in the 1950's Todd-AO and Cinerama formats). The loudspeakers employed in most theaters were various models of Altec-Lansing Voice of the Theater. A problem with these loudspeakers was that although they use horn-loaded operation across much of the woofer's operating range for high efficiency, and thus high-level capability, below about 80 Hz the small size of the short horn became ineffective, and the speaker reverted to 'bass reflex' operation with lower efficiency. In addition, the stiff-suspension, short-excursion drivers could not produce much level at lower frequencies, and the 'wing walls' surrounding the loudspeakers that supported the bass had often been removed in theaters. For this combination of reasons, both low-frequency response and headroom were quite limited.
Ioan Allen and Steve Katz of Dolby Labs knew that many older theaters were still equipped with five front-channels, left over from the original 70mm format. So, their idea was to put the 'unused' channels back into service just to carry added low-frequency content, something that would help distinguish the 70mm theater experience from the more ordinary one expected of a 35mm release at the time. Gary Kurtz asked for a reel of Capricorn One to be prepared in several formats and played at the Academy theater. The format using left extra and right extra loudspeakers for added low-frequency level capability won. Thus was invented the 'Baby Boom' channel, as it was affectionately named, born of necessity. Just six months after Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind was the first picture to use dedicated subwoofers, installed just for the purpose of playing the Baby Boom channel."
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I apologize to everyone for not being clear in my posts. Sorry.
Why are you apologizing? Everything you've posted seemed clear to me.
If this is what this is concerning, my reference to "genuine" channels was interpreted correctly by you; it was another individual who I suspect didn't understand what I meant.
The only real upgrade to a full CP200 is to exchange the cat22
cards for cat280 cards. And now you have SR.
The only other problem, would be if the 70MM print was A or SR.
Sometimes the studios would make 70MM SR prints for LA & NY.
And the rest are 70MM A for the rest of the cities.
Other wise the theatre would have to buy or rent the extra cat280 cards. That's alot of extra cat280's to be sitting around.
David
Did you get the info on the Surf theatre?
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I'd be curious to know when/if [Edwards Big Newport] ever augmented the stage speakers with baby-boom there. Also am curious why they apparently never upgraded the 6-track mag from A to SR.
I'm not sure about either.
The initial push for theatres to install subwoofers for 70mm seems to have been with Close Encounters. But Newport didn't play that in 70mm so perhaps they put off the installation. (I don't think very many theatres installed subs at that point in time, anyway.) But weren't theatres required to install subwoofers in order to play Altered States if they were going to advertise it in Megasound (aka "70mm Six-Track Dolby Stereo + Megasound" )? Newport Beach had one of the few Southern California first-run 70mm engagements of Altered States, and it was advertising it in Megasound (in some, but not all, of the ads during its run). But then, Newport ran 70s of other "Megasound" releases (Outland and Superman II) and neither was being advertised in Megasound (whereas other Southern California 70mm engagements were) so maybe Newport never did have Megasound (or any type of subwoofer system at that time).
As for "SR," I can remember seeing at least one advertisement for Lawrence Of Arabia ('89 rerelease) at the top of the Edwards directory that included an "SR" logo. *But* that may have been "built in" to the Columbia ad and not a specific notation of the presentation. Wasn't the 1989 70mm rerelease of Lawrence dual inventory ("A" and "SR")?
But like Bill mentioned earlier, it could've simply been a case of not being able to ever get an SR print even if they had the playback capability given the low quantity of SR prints being produced. Newport was lucky enough to get the number of 70mm prints that they did. Whether "A" or "SR," 70mm presentations at the Big Newport always seemed to be top-notch. And believe it or not, the Big Newport ran more first run 70mm than both the Chinese and Cinerama Dome. (Newport's last 70mm engagement was Hamlet in early '97.)
Wasn't Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade advertised at a handful of LA theaters in 70mm with split surrounds, maybe SR too. ? To the best of my knowledge, the Newport never advertised SR or split surrounds, and I never noticed any split surround content, until CDS was installed there for Dick Tracy.
I have no trouble believing that Newport ran more 70mm than the Chinese & Dome. Newport got a lot of stuff in 70mm that probably had very limited distribution in that format.
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I don't recall "Megasound" ever advertised there, but it's possible. It seemed like they always had very clean, dynamic sound, but I don't remember ever noticing any low-freq content that would be comparable to what we can get with today's digital .1 LFE channel.
I have the Altered States Megasound ad in my collection....
I seem to recall 70mm presentations of movies like Top Gun, The Untouchables, and even E.T. (original '82 mix) having scenes with intense, deep bass. Of course, I always felt the deep bass was weaker at Newport compared to, say, the nearby Orange Cinedome (even after they installed the digital formats).
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Wasn't Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade advertised at a handful of LA theaters in 70mm with split surrounds, maybe SR too. ?
You could look it up in the "70mm in L.A." database at www.widescreenreview.com. I'll save you the effort.... Yes. Mann National Westwood. Mann Chinese Hollywood. SR and split surrounds. SR was indicated in the Paramount display ad. The Mann Theatre directory for those two engagements stated: "THX 70MM 6 Track DOLBY SR with Stereo Surrounds."
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I have no trouble believing that Newport ran more 70mm than the Chinese & Dome. Newport got a lot of stuff in 70mm that probably had very limited distribution in that format.
However, I don't believe Newport ever played anything that wasn't also playing in at least one L.A. theatre simultaneously. In other words, no Southern California exclusives, though they did run many Orange County exclusives.
That statistic/piece of trivia about Newport running more 70mm than those big premiere Hollywood houses is somewhat misleading or useless in that the Newport increased from a single screen to a twin and later to a 3-plex (today a 6-plex). But then, much of the 70mm engagements at the Chinese during the '80s were on screens 2 and/or 3 (which were built in 1979). Not to mention that the Chinese and Dome were running 70mm several years earlier than Newport (which opened for business in 1969. First 70mm engagement: Gone With The Wind.). So who knows; make what you want out of the trivia.
Bass response there was always good down to 50Hz or maybe 40HZ, but I bet there wasn't much happening below that... I do remember the 6-track mag sound on 2010 was powerful enough to rattle the seats though...