Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Two Towers and INTERMISSION!

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Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 12-07-2002, 01:42 PM:

Just got an email today saying there will be an intermission as requested by peter jackson between r4 and r5?
Looks like its is part of the booking terms.
120mins into film apparently.

Anyone else had this too.

Darren

Posted by Darren Crimmins (Member # 1116) on 12-07-2002, 01:48 PM:

Do you mean 120 minutes (2 hours) or 1 hour and 20 minutes. Seems pretty hard to get 2 hours inbetween reels 4 and 5. [Eek!]

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 12-07-2002, 02:51 PM:

Sorry should of had a 'Hr' there,
1 Hour 20 Mins according to the email our head office sent today.

Posted by Michael Gonzalez (Member # 593) on 12-07-2002, 05:25 PM:

I highly doubt that many theaters in America will have an intermission on their prints. I wonder if that is just a Europe thing? I am assuming that booking terms are different in the U.S. than they are overseas.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-07-2002, 07:20 PM:

I sure wish there was one. People always complain about these 3 hr movies.

Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 12-07-2002, 07:21 PM:

Darren, Can you clarify if the intermission applies to all sites or only those running towers? I suspect it only applies to those running towers, however if it does include all bookings I will be surprised, and quite frankly very pissed off!

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 12-08-2002, 08:00 AM:

Ill double double check with head office, but the email just said.
To all sites running Two Towers, you must play this film with an intermission between reels 4 and 5. This is at the requestof Peter Jackson himself. It goes on to describe the action before the intermission. Im presumming that if he is requesting an intermission it will have a intermission title and posibly run in music!? That would be cool, just like running 70.

I think only one of our sites uses a tower, all others are platters.
Im going to check up on this on monday, and then decide if im running two seperate parts off the platter or just putting spacing in and automation cues to do an intermission.

Have fun
Darren

Posted by Michael Harlow (Member # 1353) on 12-08-2002, 10:18 AM:

I had a standard letter from Entertainment Film Distributors saying that under no circumstances must an intermission be put in unless the equipment is physically impossible of running 3 hrs, ie a tower. It also stated that there is 1 hard locked trailer for Dumb and Dumberer.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-08-2002, 11:14 AM:

I've not heard a peep about this intermission. Must be an "over the pond" thing.... Besides, if you include an intermission of, say, 10-15 minutes, how would the number crunchers squeeze that one extra show a day in?
I have the answer, of course, but let's hope they don't figure it out... (You run the show 24/7) Who needs to clean theatres and get sleep.... [eyes]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-08-2002, 12:57 PM:

Darren, I wish I could get a copy of that notice. I will eventually play that title in second run and my General Manager always asks if it possible to eliminate intermisisons when they are included in roadshow prints. Of course my answer is always "Absolutley NOT -- it is physically impossible to eliminate the intermisison -- it is built into the print" (and also because my hands physically close the dowser and stop the machine). It would be great to be able to shove that notice in front of him and say, "Here -- do you want to risk a lawsuit?"

Frank

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 12-08-2002, 02:16 PM:

Michael H.
Im gona have to look into where or programmer at head office got his information, but it seemed like it was genuine and was a definite request?
The plot thickens!
Know more tomorow.
Darren

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-09-2002, 09:38 AM:

Darren, can you scan that notice and post it here? Alternatively if you can get it (or a photocopy) to me I can post it as a JPEG or PDF here (whatever people prefer).

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-09-2002, 11:19 AM:

Regal's daily schedule for Two Towers here in Eugene is for just 3 shows a day: noon, 3:45, and 7:30. With that kind of "relaxed" scheduling, they could put in a 15 min. intermission, probably boost their concession sales, and make the customers very happy too. I really don't understand why US theaters are so dead set against intermissions.

Cinemark has 2 prints, 4 shows a day each, first show at 9:30AM, last 2 shows are 10:30PM and 11:00PM.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 12-09-2002, 11:43 AM:

My boss saw the film last week. No intermission at that screening......

[eyes]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-09-2002, 12:54 PM:

David Stambaugh wrote: "I really don't understand why US theaters are so dead set against intermissions."

Is it the theatres, or the distributors? [Roll Eyes]

Most theatres would benefit from increased per-caps if long movies had an intermission. But it might mean one less showing per day for each print.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-09-2002, 01:20 PM:

Right, I understand the argument for cramming in as many shows as they can. But if they are only running 3 shows a day, with no "late evening" show, they could easily stick in a 15 minute intermission and adjust the 3 start times accordingly, and still not disrupt their overall hours. Seems like a win-win. But what do I know. [Wink]

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 12-09-2002, 01:30 PM:

Just found out it was a mistake in the email and they had missed the words 'on towers' out!
So it was supposed to say those runing the two towers on towers, must put an intermission between r4 and r5!
So panic over no intermssion for platters!

Darren

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-09-2002, 02:42 PM:

No need for an intermission if you run The Two Towers using two towers! [Wink]

Sorry, couldn't resist that.

I have once tried to do a changeover with the incoming machine being fed from a tower and it's not an experience I'd like to repeat. The film was Titanic with reels 1-4 on a 6,000 foot spool and the rest of it on the tower. The tower in question was an old and unloved Westrex tower with worn-out bearings which would start sluggishly and then suddenly pull like crazy. You had to act like a human shock absorber to stop it from breaking the film (acetate) or destroying the intermittent loop (poly), and this procedure combined with the usual changeover drill was not pleasant.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-09-2002, 02:52 PM:

Leo, I've only done changeovers with 2k or 6k spools, I've run towers, but never platters or endless loops. Towers can be tricky to start without snatching the film, and they do need care when starting. Some are much worse than others of the same make and model. I would not want to do a changeover onto a tower, in this situation, wouldn't it be better to run the first part on the tower, and then change over to the smaller spool?

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 12-09-2002, 06:25 PM:

An inverter on the projector motor with a 10 second ramp to full speed is a great idea when using a tower, makes life easy and no need to take up all the loose film with your hand as the tower struggles to get up to speed without snatching the film.

Darren

Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 12-09-2002, 07:26 PM:

I was joking with a guy at work today on this subject, and he suggested that maybe the 'two towers' and 'towers' were being mixed up, looks like he was right!

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-09-2002, 08:51 PM:

Our schedule for the print is
1200-1230-330-415-700-800-1030-1130
The 1130pm is for the first two Fr/Sa nights.
1030 pm nightly.
WHY??

Is selling 20 adult tickets ($150) really worth it after you take out your overhead?
$35 comp for the late show
$39 for the hourlies who have to stay the extra time.
$50 for the cost of advertising it and actually putting it onscreen.

$124 operating expenses (and I'm probably low on that figure) leaves a whopping $16.

Oh wait, let's not forget the distributors 90%.

Yeah, makes sense to me. NOT! [Frown]

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 12-09-2002, 11:26 PM:

Jason -

Don't forget the concessions purchased by those 20 people.

Assuming a $2.00 net per cap, there's $40.00! Subtract 15% for food cost and you have $34.00 more income.

Actually, I would probably run a 10:30 show nightly. If you sat down and matrixed the cost of putting on every single show, you might find that you would drop a whole lot of matinee shows, yet you run those for the couple of people that show up at noon on a weekday. Why not run evening shows? I didn't get into this business cause I like going to bed early [Smile]

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-10-2002, 12:10 AM:

Mike,

Trust me, I hadn't forgotten about the concession end of it, but it still looks to me like having such shows (whether day or night) with such minimal attendances is a waste. Actually, the later PM shows are the waste, IMO. The matinees (in my area) have varying crowds from day to day... the laters ones, however, do not. IT all gets back to the fact that local area management shoudl know their given populace and it's attendance routines FAR batter than someone sitting in a 5th floor office 700 miles away. I guess that's what I get for working for a chain... [Frown]

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 12-10-2002, 01:51 AM:

Jason,

I do not if you work for Regal or not. But they do not have a fifth floor. They barely have two floors.Being a very tall person there are places in that corporate office where I almost hit my head on the door frames every morning (when I worked there). Truth is - the Regal Cinemas corporate office sits behind a Winn-Dixie in a town called Halls, Tennessee (outside of Knoxville). The place is extremely 'unhollywood' and very unglamorous. The first time I went there I thought for sure I had the wrong place. Now you can't miss it - they named the street "Mike Campbell Drive" so people don't get lost looking for the place................................

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 12-10-2002, 01:58 AM:

Jason -

I too, work for a chain (one of the top five). We have NEVER had mandatory showtimes. The closest that we came was with "Pearl Harbor." We had to submit our showtimes and house placements to our booker a couple of weeks in advance for approval through Buena Vista. My Region Leader decided that she would just do the schedules/placements for all of her managers, but that was a regional decision. Most managers in the company did all of their own.

Now, we are expected to run occupancy reports on Friday night and "fix" our house placements based on those reports. A couple of times a year, we get an email on Monday asking for our occupancy reports for the weekend, and if something needed to be moved but wasn't ... the response is not very pleasant.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-10-2002, 09:30 AM:

Dennis,
NO, I work fo rthe other Mike. Patrick. Carmike. They do have 5 floors at the home office, but the showtime decisions are made on the forth floor. There is no questioning their judegment. They know best for the entire ocuntry when it comes to showtimes. It's kind of like the Sam's Club warehouses that can't control their own parking lot lights. They are controlled from a master location in Oklahoma or somewhere like that. Yeah, that to makes plenty of sense to me... [eyes]

Mike:
That makes all the common sense in the world to me. The location manager should possess ability to "forecast" his/her upcoming shows and place them accordingly. IT's not a science and there are mistakes made, but it's ever so simple to pick a print up and move it from house to house, often between shows if needed, to capitize on the extra seating.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-10-2002, 10:56 AM:

quote:
It's kind of like the Sam's Club warehouses that can't control their own parking lot lights. They are controlled from a master location in Oklahoma or somewhere like that. Yeah, that to makes plenty of sense to me

Cinemark controls the HVAC system here from their HQ in Texas. If an auditorium is too hot or too cold, the local mgr. has to contact the main office to get it changed. So I've been told anyway.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-10-2002, 12:52 PM:

My high school in South Florida had it's A/C controlled from a central station in another state (GA or SC). Very strange when it's 75 degrees outside and the heat kicks in. [Roll Eyes]

Jason-- Carmike instructed us to have a 12:01am showing on Tuesday/Wednesday. I don't think they realized that every other theater known to man in the area is going to do that as well. And they've got stadium seating and cupholders... *sigh*

=TMP=

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-10-2002, 01:59 PM:

NO INTERMISSIONS!!! Don't even suggest that here in the US! They'll just end up showing about 20 more NCN commercials! Keep the intermissions OUT OF THE US - At least for the first run theaters.

We're currently starting our movies TEN minutes ahead of schedule due to insanely long NCN pre-show crap. Our customers notice it too, and are very thankful that we do that. I know we're supposed to do that anyway, but a lot of places around here don't. Hell, now we even have Geico commercials playing in the Movie Tunes! For Pete's Sake! Enough already!

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-10-2002, 02:14 PM:

Darren - yes, a microverter would have prevented a lot of grey hairs but this was a no-budget student film society - 'nuff said!

Stephen - yes, changing over from the tower rather than to it would have been easiest. However, this set up consisted of a DP-70, which had the tower behind it, and a GK-37. The aperture plates on a DP-70 cannot be removed while the mech is running, hence the lens change would have necessitated a stop if the bullshit followed by the first few reels of the film were on the tower. So that ran on the GK, then we switched to the DP. Another reason was that the DP gave a far steadier picture and its lamphouse mirror was in a much better state, so we preferred to show 2 1/2 hours on that and one hour on the GK rather than vice-versa.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 12-11-2002, 01:33 PM:

If anybody has the balls to do an intermission for a long film, they stand to double their concession per caps. I know because the last three films I ran with an intermission doubled our per caps. The reason I was running an intermission was that Gone With The Wind, Lawrence of Arabia and Gettysburge were all 70mm and too big to fit on one platter.

Up untill the '80s the city of Great Falls Montana required all films to have an intermission. Even 80 minute Disney cartoons! [Roll Eyes]

Carmike finaly convinced the city to drop that regulation.

Were about to run Lagaan which is 4 hours long. But we are going to do it without an intermission because it is one of our morning movies and the schedule is tight. And we don't need to double our per cap with the 15 people who will come to the film. If Payal's mom is any guide to go by, all the Indian (Dot not Feathers) will bring their own snacks anyway. [thumbsdown]

Posted by Michael Gonzalez (Member # 593) on 12-12-2002, 03:54 PM:

Those theaters that have free pop and popcorn refills will probably not be able to double their concession per cap by having an intermission. It could even possibly cause less money to come in as customers geting refills will cause the concession lines to extend and prompt some customers to not buy anything at all.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 12-12-2002, 06:51 PM:

Two Towers was screend wednesday for the danish cinema owners with the official information, that we will have prints delivered with intermission after reel 4 = 1 hour, 20 mins.
Possibly a europeean thing, but after 2 hours or 2 hrs 15, people are running out and in so much that intermission is absolutely the better way. -Let them pee, buy popcorn, run screaming away or whatever - just they do it at the same time instead of disturbing constanly the last hour of any long picture.

By the way: Any other than me to feel tricked: My orderform from the distributor holds the word "worldpremiere" - with start at midnight between 17th and 18th december. ImdB allready now brings rewiews from "just-started film" ?????

p.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-18-2002, 04:11 PM:

Hi all...

The Odeon Marble Arch London, as was, used to run change overs on two Cinemecanicca Towers, especially on 70mm.

Floating flange take up spools are a great help with any tower if you don't use an inverter. Westrex used to install their towers on Westars with a drop down transformer and sometimes fitting a flywheel to give a slower start.

The Westrex 7000 was a real bodge.... but it worked. The projector had a delay built into its start to allow the takeup absorber arm to stabalise, so when you pressed start it took a couple of seconds before anything happend. Then it went like shit down a drain pipe.

So what they did was to give the tower a boost for a few seconds.

The Westrex Tower is still the best tower ever made. No clutches or washing machine motors, no brushes. All you need to change are the bearings every few years and if you are VERY unlucky maybe the odd belt and they run forever.

Exactly what good design is all about. Decide what you want it to do and build it to do just that... no more, no less. Put it in a rack with four motor plates a control box and sit the whole thing on a turntable.... beuatiful [thumbsup]

Regards.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 12-18-2002, 05:43 PM:

The Westrex 5035 manual describes soft start arrangements for various projectors common at the time. Westrex 2001 with 2002/2003 rep set. Done more or less as Ken desribed using a multi tapped auto transformer and bloody big resistor. If you spend a bit of time setting the tap and resistance right you can achieve a reliable run about of about 6 seconds or so, which will quite happily start with the tower even on small non-floating hub spools. There is a similar arrangement described in the book for using the tower with Cinemecannica and Kalee machines. That time delay thing on the Westrex 7000 was really meant to work with it's on board take up motor, you press START, the take up runs and the loop damper tensions up, about 7 seconds after you press START the projector motor comes in, and yup it does start up pretty fast. However there is yet another multi tapped transformer in there (seems a common Westrex theme this!), which if adjusted just right you could achieve a safe run up for use with the tower.

Ken you are so right about the venerable old 5035. Those things just go and go and go. Even when very ill it is almost unheard of to loase a show, there's always the other side, running film on the rewind tension, rewinding on the run tension etc, etc.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-18-2002, 06:02 PM:

As a peice of engineering they take some beating for simplicity....
I don't think I've ever heard of a motor failing.

I've rebuilt a few of them over the years and with very little effort they can look as good as new with as new performance.

Darren... I also got the email abot LOTR but told the manager that it was a mistake immediatly. One, its not company policy and two, the distributors would not insist on such a thing anyway.

We could not do it anyway as we are running it on interlock and it adds another level of complexity, very minor admittedly, that I could not tollerate. It requires setting a switch on the last projector to stop at interval..... also adding a VERY long leader as a feature change, some 150' in our case. Get the switches wrong and the first projector stops whilst the second is still on screen. Yes I know training etc etc etc.... but people make mistakes and I'd rather eliminate it as a possible source of trouble.

We have run a lot of interlock and apart from one instance, which was operator f**k up, we have not had a single technical problem..... and NO print damage at all! So once a show starts we DO NOT STOP!! unless its an emergency. We now use Film Guard and that helps to look after the extra stress the print experiences.

I've taken some pics today if anoyone is interested in my mods for interlock... its a unique setup, all my own work [Big Grin]

Regards

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 12-18-2002, 07:40 PM:

I'm interested. Please share

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-19-2002, 04:38 AM:

Always interested in interlocks! [Big Grin]

Test drive out that upload feature for us.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 12-19-2002, 08:32 AM:

So if I run this film with my tower system can I advertise it as
'The Lord Of The Rings: The Three Towers'? [Big Grin]

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 12-19-2002, 02:02 PM:

The amount of people asking for tickets to see the Twin Towers is getting on my nerves

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-19-2002, 02:07 PM:

Can't people just say lord of the rings?

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 12-19-2002, 06:40 PM:

You would think so

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-19-2002, 06:54 PM:

OK Here's some pics of my interlock setup.

All Vic 8's with TA10 automation. All mounting brackets for Film Wrap sensors and DTS heads have been made in house. Full install done by yours truly.

System is very simple and totally reliable..... too late I've said it now [Eek!]

Here's the first prijector in the interlock, Screen 1 our THX screen. The film follows the normal film path to the projector but is sent down the line by the red roller mounted on the side of the column.
The film cleaner is hung onto the column and is applying Film Guard... The film is LORT Two Towers runing from bottom plate, not shown.

Front view of platter one showing film feed into projector and supply to second projector. The film runs at high level on a cable tray.....

Loop absorber between projectors 1 & 2... home made! It has about 8 feet of absorbtion which is not really needed. It never moves more that a couple of inches either way, which is just the slack in the system between the two projectors. Projectors are of course running on inverters. The TA10 takes care of communication between each projector.

Film arriving at second projector from high level. It enters the platter and follows normal lacing path thru wrap sensor, projector and onto take-up plate.

Long shot of box from projector 1 towards 2, 3 & 4.... showing make-up station between projectors 1 & 2. Note we have a spare non-rewind for making up and breaking down prints.... very useful!

Long shot from projector 2 showing film storage units... made to my spec for easy movement. Films stand on the carriers at an angle one on each side. You can also see, top left, the red high level rollers used for interlocking screen 2 & 3. The wiring tray was a very usful part of the existing installation.

Another view of first projector in interlock showing feed and supply to second projector and film cleaner. The cleaner simply hangs onto the column so can be easily moved around. The film wrap sensors will 'ALWAYS' stop the projector without any damage to the print. The film wrap sensors are made by Nigel Shaw with my mods and the control box is my design.

The TA10 makes the whole system very easy to use. You need to tie back the take-up arm on the supply projector, as you can see above, or that projector will not run. Apart from that it's simply a long lacing leader and a start cue. A push of the start button and everything runs as normal. We have 1 1/2 minutes between each show so no problems with running about. See first show on and then walk slowly down to the next. We can currently run three screens in interlock, adding the fourth screen would be a simple matter.

I have to admit I enjoy the freedom I have that allows me to design, manufacture and install system such as this. The fact that I actually show films myself means they are installed with ease of use very much in mind. Some engineers unfortunatly install equipment technically correct but with no idea or thought given to ease of use.

Hope this is of interest to you all.

Happy to get any comments....

Regards.

Posted by Kelsey Black (Member # 126) on 12-19-2002, 11:14 PM:

Back on the subject of intermissions on towers, I've had my print since Tuesday morning and ever since I've built it up I've thought of coming on here and seeing the general consensus on where to place an intermission. I think I decided on the best place for an intermission quite by chance, and it's not between reels 4 & 5.

try between 6 & 7. that way people have a bit over 2 hours to empty their drinks and popcorns, fill their bladders and get uncomfortable in their seats, then go to the concession stand and load up again for the best hour in the film. And, I have reels 7,8,9 on a 6000' reel, which makes the intermission a breeze to run on my double-sided tower that only has one functional side.

And on a side note, I run my intermissions with as much lead out soundtrack as I can before the beep, then place an intermission snipe, and then one trailer in which the side lights come up during, then the auditorium lights come up. I start the second part by dimming the auditorium lights over 10 seconds, 10 seconds before the green band of another trailer (long as possible) for people in the lobby to hear, get back to their seats, get their eyes readjusted to the darkness, then the side wall lights go down when the credits on the trailer start... insert 10 seconds of black silence for people to digest the trailer, remember where they were in the movie, and dialate their pupils further, then sound lead-in and picture on screen.

If I had enough 36" reels in good enough shape to run I'd try the intermission between reels 4 & 5, but then I had to bring in my own 6k reel from home to even do this.

gotta go, our 7:00 show just got out.

Kelsey Black
www.WillcoxMovies.com

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-19-2002, 11:39 PM:

You actually run a trailer in the midst of your intermission? That seems to me like a really unpleasant idea, but I guess I see where you're coming from.

In those rare cases where we have intermissions, we play regular non-sync during the intermission, and then about a minute before we resume, switch to music from the film (obtained in a variety of ways...) , fade down the lights, and run straight into the rest of the film...

--jhawk

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 12-20-2002, 03:41 AM:

Yea, I thought that was strange too. We splice an intermission 2ft length & either stop & lights up or mask it out when we schedule none

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-20-2002, 10:46 AM:

Oh, yes, to actually start the intermission we splice in [or changeover to] a 30-second INTERMISSION datestrip with our fanfare... (from Filmack)

--jhawk

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 12-20-2002, 11:40 AM:

To bring the thread slightly off topic again and talk about interlocking.

How do you advertise the show time and screen?

Since you will be having at least two screens which start at the same time how do you cope with this at the box office? In terms of assigning which auditorium someone should go two. Do you advertise that a given start time is actually in more than one auditorium?

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-20-2002, 01:01 PM:

Hi Michael

Advertised start times are the same for each audiorium, but one will start about 1 1/2 mins later than the other.

Tickets are sold with screen numbers on them so they go where they have been allocated. Yes the THX will normally fill first but some people will always prefere an isle, middle or rear seat so will take it in whichever screen they can.

In total two screens are just over 500 and the box office will have been selling for a few days maybe more. You just have to have one person to direct people to the correct screen and at least two in each auditorium to seat them. Works very well.... normally.

It's a cake walk when you consider years ago a small cash desk with an old lady in it could fill a 1000+ cinema on her own with time to spare. I still remember the clunk of the automaticket to this day. Mind you people were much more polite and considerate than they are today....

Regards.