This is topic Syrup Lines - Overhead or under the slab in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000708

---

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 01-12-2003, 05:06 PM:
 
My bag-in-the-box pumps and stuff are in the back store room and I'm contemplating a way to get them to the fountainhead which sits on the front counter of the the concessions line.

If I go over-head, I can go through a 6" PVC pipe above the ceiling tiles to the front line, and then down the inside of a furred-out column to the back of the front counter and into the machine.

If I go under the slab, I can run the same 6" PVC pipe and just rise up inside the base of the front counter cabinet space. The only draw-back to this is the possibilities of under-slab moisture seeping into the pipe, or worse yet,critters getting down in there and messing with the lines.

Any suggestions?
 

---

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 01-12-2003, 05:09 PM:
 
I've never seen an overhead installation. Just under the floor. I would think that you would want under the floor. What if you have a syrup leak? Do you want the syrup leaking above you?
 

---

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-12-2003, 07:04 PM:
 
At every opportunity, whether for electrical, telephone, or plumbing... embedded in the floor.

You should see a booth I designed in Lexington, KY... EVERYTHING, including the DD video cable, is in embedded conduit. When you walk into the booth, all you see is a projector sitting there in the middle of the floor, with NOTHING visible connnected to it. That's the only way to fly!
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-12-2003, 07:17 PM:
 
Going through the ceiling might lead to problems with airlocks, which could then lead to really foamy soda.

If you're worried about little animals getting down in the pipe you could seal it off at both ends with a cut out endcap and some tape/cocking.
 

---

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-12-2003, 07:37 PM:
 
Ditto, ditto, ditto and me, too.
In the floor's the way to go.

You can bring your pipes right up through the bottom of your counter. All of the servicepeople we've worked with seem to expect it.
 

---

Posted by Craig Hanham (Member # 1010) on 01-12-2003, 07:40 PM:
 
Underfloor definitely.
Lowers the chance for airlocks as already stated.
Depending on your situation, look at running rectangle section PVC electric conduit - the stuff wiyh the snap fit cover - at skirting board level.
The advantages are 1. there is end caps available to prevent pest intrusion.
2. Cover can be removed to add extra lines, services etc.

6" pipe nder the floor is good but access is restricted and you have to have a up pipe at each end to prevent watter being spilt/flooding the tube.
 

---

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 01-12-2003, 09:23 PM:
 
Running the lines in a PVC pipe underground will also help keep the syrup cooler than above an insulated drop ceiling. Every underground install I've ever seen has had the pipe ends foamed in to prevent varmints.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-12-2003, 10:42 PM:
 
I'm going to be different and say NO to underground lines. I was a manager for UA in the mid 90's when the theater was down to just myself and another manager running the place. The other manager already had vacation time and a plane booked to go on a specific week, so I ended up agreeing to working 7 doubles in a row. On the 7th night I ended up going to the hospital emergency room and it was because of those damned underground lines.

Turns out there was a crack in the sewage line coming from the Men's restroom and it was leaking under the slab and managed to get into the PVC pipe carrying the syrup lines. That delightful mix of urine and feces ate away at the lines until it got in. Yes indeedy, the manager Friday morning got to find out that the reason the Sprite suddenly started coming out a dark brown thick liquid was because there was SHIT in the lines!

Some of the other staff that was working Thursday also got to go to the hospital too.

Underground lines? Hell no!

BTW, McDonald's uses overhead lines, and they have the best Cokes anywhere.
 

---

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 01-12-2003, 11:46 PM:
 
Thank god I read Brads post today & not yesterday. We changed a Sprite post mix that was labeled incorrectly. (Diet Coke I think)

Do you know how many drinks we had to pour to get the muddy colour out?
 

---

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-13-2003, 02:06 AM:
 
Brad, we had one do that in one of our theatres some time ago. The soft drinks tasted like shit! Now, I am not saying that I know what shit tastes like, but you get the point.

Luck had it in our favor....the PVC pipe in the concrete was large enough to allow total removal and replacement of the lines from the back room to the fountain heads. Most of the contamination came from crud and corruption along with coagulated syrup getting into the PVC pipe, and somehow leached through the lines. I didn't think that was possible, but I heard that's what the cause was in our case.
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-13-2003, 03:20 AM:
 
New builds and renovated McDonald's in Canada use underground lines.
 

---

Posted by Jason Whyte (Member # 1433) on 01-13-2003, 03:43 AM:
 

quote:

---

New builds and renovated McDonald's in Canada use underground lines.

---

It's still too bad that their Coke tastes like shit.

Jason
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-13-2003, 03:47 AM:
 
Yeah but Coke in Canada has always tasted like
That's the main reason I used to eat at Burger King... so I didn't have to drink the super watered down Coke.
 

---

Posted by Jason Whyte (Member # 1433) on 01-13-2003, 03:51 AM:
 
Oh, you just have to take a crack at Canadians with that comment.

For the record, I only drink the bottled or canned coke up here. And it tastes just fine. Most if not all dispensed coke tastes watered down, even moreso at theaters.

What's even more odd is one or two theaters here also sell bottled Coke or pepsi (for something like $3.50!)...seems to sell rather well since they've been doing it for about two years.

Jason
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-13-2003, 03:55 AM:
 
Jason, you mean 'over here'! If you're talking about (one of) the theatres I think you are, I work for that company. They sell bottled water for about that price too.
 

---

Posted by Jason Whyte (Member # 1433) on 01-13-2003, 03:59 AM:
 
Whoops, my bad Daryl. I forgot to look at your location first before responding. I was joking anyway, since I'm never really that defensive over Canadian jokes in the first place.

Victoria has a few Famous Players, a Cineplex Odeon, a Criterion Cinemas, a Landmark and an Alliance Atlantis, as well as a couple of independents. I'm sure you fall under one of those.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-13-2003, 04:03 AM:
 
Down here in redneck territory, McDonald's is the only place I know of that actually has strict standards on their soft drinks. I know a couple of people who have been managers for McDonald's and they both mentioned that overhead lines was a requirement, along with weekly brixing, hence my reference to them.

Personally if you want really good soft drinks, along with the regular brixing you need to get the slowest pouring nozzles you can find, as well as a counter electric model. Systems that rely on the ice bin to chill the lines never do as good of a job as a counter electric unit. If your customers know your drinks will be extra good, they will commonly opt for the larger size. One place I used to work (coincidently the same one serving "shit Cokes") I frequently was told by customers that they would pass on the upsizing because our Cokes did not taste very good. (They were right too!)
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-13-2003, 04:07 AM:
 
Well I fall under a couple of those and them some... heck except for the third and fourth ones, they all pretty much fall under each other.
 

---

Posted by Jason Whyte (Member # 1433) on 01-13-2003, 04:14 AM:
 
My local theater that I work with has a basic under-the-counter fountain setup, but I'm not sure about exact specs, but this thread certainly has me interested to find out. I haven't drank any of the coke from their fountain in ages, mind you...

quote:

---

One place I used to work (coincidently the same one serving "shit Cokes") I frequently was told by customers that they would pass on the upsizing because our Cokes did not taste very good. (They were right too!)

---

I tend to say one of two things:

- "Could I have a side of water?"
or
- "Well that depends -- how much comission do you get if I say yes to an upgrade?"
 

---

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 01-13-2003, 09:20 AM:
 
Brad,

That same theater also had those HORRIBLE "Turbo" heads. I'd agree the cokes at that theater never really tasted all that good.
 

---

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 01-13-2003, 09:56 AM:
 
At least it isn't Pepsi.
 

---

Posted by Tom Wienholt (Member # 1510) on 01-13-2003, 10:05 AM:
 
At my theatre the soda lines are run through the ceiling and we've never had any problems with them.
 

---

Posted by Robert Golding (Member # 746) on 01-13-2003, 06:01 PM:
 
I must tell all of you who like underground, have not had the pleasure of being flooded. I was in 1986 and I can tell you it's not pretty. I abandon all my under ground lines for my soda machines and reinstalled it all overhead. My waterline for the soda fountains is only a small 1/2 line. I used 6" PVC to run the syrup line. I've have no problems with critters getting into the lines as I used a foam sealent to plug the pvc ends. I also ran my wiring from my soundhead to soundrack overhead. If you can't hide your overhead lines, all you have to do is paint them and nobody notices them. With all lines overhead you seem to find your leaks much faster and they are much easier to fix. If you use pvc pipe make sure you don't glue them together. When and if something does go wrong, it a snap to pull them apart. Mine have been in place since 1986 and so far no problems.
 

---

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 01-14-2003, 12:00 AM:
 
The norm for us is to use PVC in the slab with stainless lines run thru the underground tubes. At each end of the PVC the expandable foam is sprayed in to effectively "seal" the tube. Nylon lines are run to and from the stainless lines.

In all the years I've been in the business, I've yet to have a stainless line fail. I have, however, had numerous pumps to go bad, regulators, nozzles, towers, and nylon lines, but NEVER channeld stainless underground lines.

Brad,
I can see your point in shitty drinks but you can't condone all underground lines for one incident. I've never heard of such happening anywhere, but, then again, that's not really something that would ever make public knowledge in the first place...

"Come see us.... Now serving the shittiest drinks in town..."
Gives a whole new meaning to the term "Shitty drunk"...
 

---

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 01-14-2003, 12:26 AM:
 
At the Skyline Drive-in, our syrup lines just lay on the floor with a board laying on top of the lines.
 

---

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-14-2003, 01:16 AM:
 

quote:

---

from Ken:
...our syrup lines just lay on the floor with a board laying on top of the lines.

---

Yes... and their proximity to the ers is good reason to be concerned, eh?
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-14-2003, 02:52 AM:
 
Jason Black,

It's a memory I will NEVER forget! Imagine being operated on without drugs. It felt something like that.

Still, I see no reason to bury the lines. It just makes things extremely difficult to service. This incident just happens to have been enough for me to never want to see underground lines again.

Jason Burroughs,

Lovely Cokes they were there, eh? Remember the back satellite stations had the older super-slow pouring nozzles? Those always tasted very good. The Turbo nozzles wouldn't stay brixed and they actually took more time to fill a drink because of the excessive foaming going on. Pouring speed isn't all that it's cracked up to be when dealing with soft drinks.

Being the Coke conoisseur that I am (ok, addict), nothing beats a Lancer counter electric unit with standard nozzles, styrofoam cup and crushed ice!
 

---

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 01-14-2003, 10:09 AM:
 
Barry, since you are only going to have 1 or 2 screens, why not just put your syrup boxes under the counter that your pop machine will sit on. That is what we do and two sliding doors cover the entire compressor, pumps, CO2 tank and everything. I can see where a multi cant really do this as they have many stations and huge CO2 tanks, but for a small operation everything you need should fit under the counter with ease. Pepsi and Coke even supply you with metal racks to accomadate this. That way if you have any problems with anything 99% of the time you can fix it yourself without worring about contamination or ruining your cieling. And if a box goes empty its right there to change.
 

---

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 01-14-2003, 10:24 AM:
 
Brad, you always seemed to have more problems with those "Trubo" heads than we did. But we had issues as well.

I'd deffinatly agree with the foaming problem.
Have you noticed that no one is using them anymore? (as in new installations) I guess Coke figured out that they didn't work well.

Remember those funky machines that Cinemark had that mixed the syrup and water in the cup. I acutally kinda liked those.
 

---

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 01-14-2003, 03:46 PM:
 
Single screen with a "Convertable" Coke model.
Underneath the counter we put 2 shelves to hold 10 l fanta, 10 l O.J. 10 l Sprite & 20 l Coke.
The CO2 bottle measures 150mm diameter x 750mm high.
Basically we built around & under the sink.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-14-2003, 03:49 PM:
 
Actually for a small installation, I think Adam really does have the best idea.

Jason, I never cared for the "mix in the cup" dispensers. For some reason there was always too much CO2 in the mix. At the time I was around them I knew nothing about brixing, so that may have been the problem.
 

---

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 01-15-2003, 12:05 AM:
 
Jason -

Those machines were made by the A B C Beverage Company. I know most of them have been replaced w/ Lancers since the aforementioned company is out of business and parts are not available for repair. The best thing about those machines was that if you wanted an extra-sweet soda, you could just hold the cup under a syrup stream for the last second or two.
 

---

Posted by Stephen Jones 1 (Member # 114) on 01-15-2003, 02:05 AM:
 
I remember back when I worked at the Cinemark off Webb Chapel. We'd always have complaints from customers thinking that we were secretly giving them sprite as they did not see the syrup shooting in from the side.

Always made quite a mess for any employee trying to refill a 20 oz bottle. All CO2 and no syrup.
 

---

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 01-15-2003, 08:45 AM:
 
I COULD put the whole system, with the exception of the CO2 tank under the front counter, ... I do have the room.

The main reason why I'm willing to go to a little extra expense to put them in the store room is the "obnoxious" farting sounds made by the pumps. I hate that sound, and really don't want it filling my small 12'-6" x 34'-0" lobby. With this theatre being a completely new facility, I do have the luxury of placing equipment almost anywhere I want to.
 

---

Posted by Justin West (Member # 920) on 01-15-2003, 08:23 PM:
 
WHO f@rted?! But seriously, I agree with Barry on the obnoxious noises and if you have the space, hide them in back or in a closet!
 

---

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 01-18-2003, 01:12 PM:
 
At my theater we run everything overhead and have never had any problems with airlocks or anything of that such. That also includes our Icee machine as well. One thing you guys should be aware of (if serving Pepsi products), the Fruitworks without having a break in the line, transfers through the plastic somehow and infects the other soda lines within the fountain. Pepsi will not comment on this since they have to replace all the infected lines, but after having Fruitworks taste in all of our sodas, a Pepsi driver admitted that the company knows whats going on but he wasn't supposed to talk about it. Apparently Pepsi has changed the syrup composition of the Fruitworks to stop this, but we got rid of the drink since it sucked anyway. Changing out the Fruitworks line itself will not work to eliminate the taste. We tried that. All the lines must be changed out with it, for the Fruitworks residue will stay for a lomg time.
 

---

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-18-2003, 07:12 PM:
 
I'd be very afraid of a drink whose syrup has some component that can leach right through the lines.
 

---

Posted by Mike Williams (Member # 1140) on 01-19-2003, 06:01 AM:
 
If it can leach trhrough plastic lines, imagine what it could do to your digestive track.
 

---

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-19-2003, 11:06 AM:
 
What is "Brixing?"

I've heard a similar claim about "Mug Rootbeer", that the rootbeer taste can "seep into" the other lines, causing everything to taste like rootbeer. I remember the Pepsi people there for just about the whole day going under the counters and such when we got that.

=TMP=
 

---

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 01-19-2003, 11:39 AM:
 
A Brix cup is a device you use to measure the syrup and water ratio of your fountain drinks. There are two common ratios; they are 5 to 1 and 5.5 to 1. Properly brixed the fountain will dispense a quality product. If the balance goes off then the soda pop could be too sweet or too watery. McDonalds has a policy of Brixing their soda heads weekly. I think a movie theatre should check their brix mix monthly of if someone perceives a problem. Most soda companies will not give you a brix kit because they would prefer to send their tech out.

Cold is absolutely necessary for Soda Pop to maintain its carbonation. So the most important thing you can do to make sure your Soda tastes good is keep the ice bin full. The best Soda Fountains used to have a refrigeration unit. But modern Soda Fountains use and aluminum plate in the ice bin to refrigerate the soda. Fast Flow or Turbo heads don’t allow the soda enough time to cool before being dispensed.

So:

Go for Low Flow Heads
Keep them Brixed
Keep the ice bins filled
 

---

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-19-2003, 12:01 PM:
 

quote:

---

I'd be very afraid of a drink whose syrup has some component that can leach right through the lines.

---

Way back when I worked in a fish & chips store (during high school) we had constant problems with Coke syrup eating through the copper drain line of the fountain, which had a low spot in it where the syrup would collect. We ended up having to flush out the drain line every night with a pot of boiling water to stop this from happening.
 

---

Posted by Steve Anderson (Member # 364) on 01-22-2003, 09:08 PM:
 
The owners of the theater I manage rebuilt the concession area and replaced the nice Coke fountian with those crappy wonderBar drink guns....the drinks taste like
But the owners wife liked the idea of having those drink guns.
Hell even the coke people tried to talk them out of it.
Our syrup lines and CO2 are upstairs.
 

---

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 06-21-2004, 05:41 PM:
 

It has been 515 days since the last post.

 

---

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 06-21-2004, 05:41 PM:
 
Some time back a local theatre here in So Cali discovered much to their horror (and disgust) that the steel (galvanized?) pipes for their syrup had completely rotted away. The syrup was getting to the fountains via the "tunnel" left in the slab.

Never trusted the drinks from that chain ever again.

I'd place a vote for overhead lines.
 

---

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 06-21-2004, 07:16 PM:
 

quote: Steve Anderson

---

The owners of the theater I manage rebuilt the concession area and replaced the nice Coke fountian with those crappy wonderBar drink guns

---