This is topic Gods & Generals (& dts) Question in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by John Carpenter (Member # 1488) on 01-30-2003, 12:15 PM:
 
Has anyone out there who has Gods & Generals booked to open received any guidance about its run time? Last I read it it is going to be 3:40 w/o trailers? Is it going to have a built in intermission or will it even fit on most standard platters? From what I have figured - it would JUST fit... but is that the best way to go or do we even have an option about it? Thanks!
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-30-2003, 12:17 PM:
 
According to Boxoffice magazine, it's 5:30 (330 minutes)! I would hope that it would have an intermission somewhere, both for platter houses and for the sake of the audience. Does anyone know for sure?
 
Posted by John Carpenter (Member # 1488) on 01-30-2003, 12:30 PM:
 
According to our office it is 220 minutes (3hr 40min)
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-30-2003, 01:44 PM:
 
3 hours 40 minutes plus trailers will easily fit on any standard size 52" platter. I don't see WB releasing this without an official intermission, as dts cannot run for that length of time without requiring 3 discs. There are far too many 2 drawer machines still in use and dts never was smart enough to permit the changing of a disc in one drive while a movie was playing.
 
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 01-30-2003, 02:23 PM:
 
The associate producer was here on Monday and reports they're "still editting."

--jhawk
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-30-2003, 04:21 PM:
 
Which means prints won't be made for a while and they still have some sound work to do.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-30-2003, 04:22 PM:
 
They better hurry as we're screening it in 10 days and I've had no word of it being unmarried.

Gods. Generals.

OK, I'll go with Gods. Why? Because at least they don't think that they're generals. [Smile]
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-30-2003, 04:36 PM:
 
Oh I'm sure they'll print you up a special limited edition "Steve Kraus" version just for you to show in 10 days.
 
Posted by Coleman L. Zatarain (Member # 1559) on 01-30-2003, 08:15 PM:
 
According to IME it is about 216 minutes. [Eek!]
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-30-2003, 11:15 PM:
 
Someone at Boxoffice must have seen "3:30" and misread it as "330 minutes"....

The promotional propaganda that came in today says that the running time is 3:35. It also states that the film is rated PG-13, which implies that there is a "final cut" of the film, as the MPAA does not rate "works in progress."
 
Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 01-31-2003, 05:12 AM:
 
I've been told that Gods & Generals is a 13 reel beast! [Eek!]

(and my source is one that is pretty damn reliable!)
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-31-2003, 07:33 AM:
 
Bring it on. Afterwards I'll be long home reading F-T while a platter operator would still be unbuilding.
 
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 01-31-2003, 12:55 PM:
 
GODS AND GENERALS will be a three disc movie.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 01-31-2003, 03:20 PM:
 
Karen,

Pardon me for asking but what is the total running time for a disc with the sound track of the film plus tracks for trailers for coming attractions and DTS & THX sound trailers?

-Claude

[ 01-31-2003, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Claude S. Ayakawa ]
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-31-2003, 03:28 PM:
 
According to the DTS specs, the DTS-6D Digital Playback System "Holds three CD-ROMs for up to five hours of playing time; the third drive can be used for trailer discs or extended-length films."
 
Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 01-31-2003, 03:49 PM:
 
Note to self: make sure to mention to the boss-lady that it would be impractical to place the three disc Gods & Generals in the DTS house, which only has two drives. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-31-2003, 04:01 PM:
 
Karen,

Will dts release new firmware for the older dts6 players (as well as dts6-D players that have a bad drive) to permit the changing of the A disc to the C disc during the playback of the B disc without interrupting the playback of the audio???
 
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 01-31-2003, 06:17 PM:
 
Claude - The DTS-6D has a total running time of about 5 hours. I say "about" because it depends on the size of the sound file. Sometimes we can squeeze in a little more time. We do not change the compression rate and never change the mix. We transfer, into the DTS format, whatever master we are given.

Brad - There are no software updates for DTS-6/-6D players at this time.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 01-31-2003, 06:38 PM:
 
I've been wondering about if it would be possible to add a third drive to a 2 drive unit. Seems like it should work. They're just scsi drives right? Couldn't you just add a third drive to the chain and mount it outboard? Or is there a firmware issue?
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-31-2003, 06:40 PM:
 
Karen,

So the impending question is...what about all of those thousands of 2 drawer dts players out there? Are these theaters just screwed for playing this movie in dts, or will there be a formal intermission in the movie where they can change out the discs?
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-31-2003, 08:56 PM:
 
Greg, I've seen a 3rd drive added to the old 2-disc DTS units. In fact, look in the picture warehouse for Mann Colony Square 12 and you will see one. It works!

Steve- you will be at home reading Film-Tech, I'll be at the theater breaking down the print. I'll still be on the clock! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-31-2003, 09:39 PM:
 
Off-topic, I admit, but why does a DTS unit have no problems running a feature (discs in two drives) and a trailers (disc in third drive) but can't run two different features?

There's a feature (discs in two drives) and another single feature disc in the third drive? It sort of seems the same.
 
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 01-31-2003, 10:04 PM:
 
Brad: well, they can always drop to analog to switch discs. but see below; maybe that's insufficient.

John: The real answer is, "because that's how they programmed it." It could have been programmed differently, and in retrospect, I think DTS would probably do it differently if they had the opportunity to revisit it. But at the moment, trailer discs are handled as a special case.

The DTS unit boots DTS.EXE off of one of the discs in the player; presumably the latest revision non-trailer disc. If you stick two features in there, it boots the DTS.EXE from one of them, and the software doesn't know how to handle the 2-different-features case (it doesn't know how to handle 2-trailer-discs either).

You might ask how a second feature is different from a trailer disc? Well, the file format is all different. Trailers are specialcased as "reel 14" and the software knows to pull together a "virtual" reel 14 from both the R14 data on the feature disc (for attached trailers) as well as the R14 data on the trailer disc.

I would hope that the DTS.EXE for Gods and Generals makes some changes here and allows swapping of discs without stopping play. One thing that's worth noting is that if G&G is 15(+) reels, then it will probably have to be encoded as two seperate DTS serial #s (like it were two different movies), since R14 is reserved for trailers, R0 is reserved for serial number information, and the reel space is only 16 bits (0-15). That implies that iff there are no software changes (DTS.EXE), you'd be required to swap the discs at a particular place, and not just "any old time between reels 5 and 10." Hopefully there'll be software changes.

--jhawk
 
Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 01-31-2003, 11:02 PM:
 
Yes, this is a *rare* film feature length, but it just goes to show where SR-D® is, in my opinion, a superior format (as opposed to DT-S®)

[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 01-31-2003, 11:52 PM:
 
First of all, I don't see why there wouldn't be an intermission programmed in. There was one in the first movie, why would they not put one in the second?

Unless something has changed recently, when you have a trailer disc in the unit, the unit will NOT read the trailers off of the feature disc. Which sucks when the trailer soundtracks are on the feature discs but not the trailer disc.

I was under the impression that the dts.exe file on the disc is not used for anything other than to verify that the firmware is the most current version. If the version on the disc is more up-to-date than the firmware, then it automatically flashes the new version to the firmware.

But I might be completely wrong. I'm sure someone will let me know if I am.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-01-2003, 12:07 AM:
 
Joe, thinking he outsmarted me, said:
Steve- you will be at home reading Film-Tech, I'll be at the theater breaking down the print. I'll still be on the clock

Joe, I own the business so I even if I employed an labor-creating (as opposed to saving) device like a platter I'd make the same profit. Actually I haven't decided if I'll be running it or delegating. If the latter then all the better that the employee would be off the clock 5 min after show end! [Smile]

I guess I too will stick to SR-D if this show cannot be handled by a DTS-6.
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-01-2003, 12:23 AM:
 
Steve-

I have still outsmarted you since I do not own the business and rely on hourly wages to pay my bills, so I will now take even longer to break the print down! [Smile]
 
Posted by Robb Johnston (Member # 239) on 02-01-2003, 03:06 AM:
 
Even if there is an intermission, it may not help with the DTS disc swap. This is by the same people as "Gettysburg" which had an intermission, which was a reel that softly played civil war era music over a dark screen, or possibly a title card or a few pics.

In other words, the film will not necessarily come to a stop for the intermission.

Having been an Extra in Gettysburg (with the production T-shirt from Killer Angels as it was called during the shoot) I am looking forward to this quasi prequel. Glad to see Jeff Daniels reprising his role as Chamberlain
 
Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 02-01-2003, 03:23 AM:
 
further note to self: point out to boss-lady how easily a mini-promo for God & Generals could be done, with Joshua Chamberlain being a {relatively} 'local hero' … [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 02-01-2003, 04:17 AM:
 
The soundtrack album of the music from "GETTYSBURG" by Randy Edelman is one of my favorites and I own the deluxe two disc set plus "More Music from GETTYSBURG". The soundtrack album of music from "GODS & GENERALS" and composed once again by Randy Edelman will be released on Tuesday, February 4 for those of you who are interested in picking it up. It will be a Sony release.

-Claude
 
Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 02-01-2003, 08:45 AM:
 
When I ran Gettysburg in 1993, we had the 4.5 hour film on two platters. After the Intermission title card, the projector stopped and we threaded the second half. Depending on how long the intermission was, we waited a few minutes and then started up the second half, which had 5-10 minutes of intermission music on black film.
 
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 02-03-2003, 08:58 AM:
 
quote:
Bring it on. Afterwards I'll be long home reading F-T while a platter operator would still be unbuilding.
Good platter operators would be tearing down while it's running without damaging the print. I'd be right behind you, Steve. [Wink]
 
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 02-03-2003, 11:34 AM:
 
We know there will be playback challanges with this film. We'll have to wait and see what the studio/film maker wants to do.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-03-2003, 11:54 AM:
 
quote:
Good platter operators would be tearing down while it's running without damaging the print.
I think a real good platter operator would not attempt this. [Eek!]
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-03-2003, 12:08 PM:
 
Mark, you have a typo in your post above. You mispelled "shitty" and typed in the letters "good" by mistake.
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-03-2003, 12:14 PM:
 
Ha Ha Ha, He He He, Ha Ha Ha... [Razz]

I can't believe some people are in such a hurry to leave. By the time you wait for your lamp house to cool off you'd have that print have broken down. What's another 10 to 15 minutes (tops) on top of that? [Confused]
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-03-2003, 12:18 PM:
 
Yes indeed, if you hate your job that much, go find another.
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-03-2003, 12:56 PM:
 
You know, maybe I'll start threading my projectors while they are running. It's sure to save time. I could come in to work the second the show was supposed to start -- and since the distances involved are much shorter than that of a platter, it's sure to be even easier, therefore reducing damage even further! [Wink]

Almost forgot, I can save even more time by not threading the analog sound head when I'm using DTS! This is great! [Smile]

AND while I'm at it, I might as well just run the last show straight on to the MUT. Why even bother with those pesky platters?

[ 02-03-2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Daryl C. W. O'Shea ]
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-03-2003, 02:44 PM:
 
Several wise sayings come to mind:

"Haste makes waste" [Smile]

"Film Done Right" [thumbsup]

"Penny wise and pound foolish" [Frown]

How many prints have YOU damaged this year? [Confused]

(The answer should be ZERO. [Smile] )
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-03-2003, 08:07 PM:
 
Brad, did you actually recieve the three DTS discs with your print?

reference
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-03-2003, 08:29 PM:
 
Wait for the lamp(s) to cool down? Hey that's what timers are for. [Cool]

Brad, maybe you need to set a special status for people who talk like Mark above...like DOOFUS FILM HANDLER! [Mad]
 
Posted by John Carpenter (Member # 1488) on 02-03-2003, 08:48 PM:
 
Brad - with someone actually running it now, was there a good spot to insert an intermission? Also if so, and it is not prohibited, is there anyplace that sells an "intermission" reel of film (what I mean is more than black film - something that might say intermission on the screen and may have music???) Thanks for letting us all know about the film.

SPOKE TOO SOON, SORRY - JUST SAW MORE IN ANOTHER POST ABOUT AN EMAIL FROM WB SAYING THERE WILL BE AN INTERMISSION...
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-03-2003, 08:57 PM:
 
No dts discs have been made yet.

Will report back once the print has been screened as to a possible intermission. The run time will be clocked as well.
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 02-04-2003, 12:19 AM:
 
From Jonathan's post, the intermission is in the middle of reel eight. Why would they do that? During the road show era during the intermission , projection was stopped and about ten to fifteen minutes later, it was resumed with the playing of the entr'acte recorded on black film. I do recall listening to music that was recorded on the film during the intermission of "GETTYSBURG" and I also recall about ten minutes of in house music when the projectors were turned off during the break. The long defunct Cinerama Theatre in Honolulu eventually put in a platter system but "GETTYSBURG" played at this theatre in 70mm with the film on reels with change over.

-Claude
 
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 02-04-2003, 11:53 AM:
 
quote:
How many prints have YOU damaged this year?
The answer IS zero.
quote:
You mispelled "shitty" and typed in the letters "good" by mistake.
You're a funny guy. Just because one uses a techniques that's not approved or undertsood by you or others here doesn't make one shitty, Brad. I have a lot of respect for you. You're just as much of a nit picker as I am. I have NEVER damaged a print doing this. I never touch more than a frame or two of the film. The film never touches the floor. No scratches, no dirt, no stress, zip. And when done, it's film guarded, the cue tape is removed, the splicing tape is removed, and the heads and tails are re-spliced back on their proper reels with the TES bands intact (if there - and assuming they got to me in one piece).
quote:
I can't believe some people are in such a hurry to leave. By the time you wait for your lamp house to cool off you'd have that print have broken down. What's another 10 to 15 minutes (tops) on top of that?
Ask the management. When one has one round of shows to turn around four build ups and three tear downs (one of which is the last show to get out) and you care about "film done right" but the management cares more about going home, then you come up with creative ways to get the job done.

I care a great deal about the quality of the presentation and making sure that prints leave in better condition than they arrived in, and I will GLADLY take back any print that I've broken down using that technique for a second run. I'd even take it back over a virgin print because at least I know that I've already removed the lab splices.
quote:
Brad, maybe you need to set a special status for people who talk like Mark above...like DOOFUS FILM HANDLER!
You really need to lighten up. You always look so serious.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-04-2003, 12:48 PM:
 
Mark, I can't speak for the others, but I have been forced to use that trick of breaking the splice on the last reel and running it to another platter for the last show and I have yet to be able to figure out a way to do this without damage. Either the film will get a couple of marks on it while it is slid inside the roller (most platters have keepers) or the film will slip on the takeup ring (scratches) or the film will have to be tucked into a notch in the takeup ring (creased film for a frame or two), etc, etc, and so forth. Please tell me what kind of platter you are using and how you are pulling this off. If indeed you are able to do this, I'm sure there are a lot of other people who would like to know how you are doing it. The criticism comes because I don't think anyone has ever been able to figure out how to do it without film damage.
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-04-2003, 12:56 PM:
 
Okay, I admit to being curious. Just how in the HELL can you break down a film from a platter, while it's running, without touching more than a frame or two, without any film touching the floor, and with no film damage? Inquiring minds want to know. Not that I'd ever want to try it.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-04-2003, 01:05 PM:
 
If you are winding up onto a reel, how do you carefully peel off the reel-end splice without cutting the film and losing frames? And, as others have asked, how do you do it without manhandling the end of the film or getting it dirty/scratched on the floor? Also, when changing to a new reel, how do you not cinch/scratch the film at all as you put it onto the hub of the new reel? Finally, you still have to rewind the reel to properly splice the head leaders back on, so are you really saving time? [Confused]
 
Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 02-04-2003, 01:20 PM:
 
AT ANOTHER PLACE

I must admit, at times up until about 1996 we at times had the courier hanging around wanting the film at the airport ASAP the night the show finished. (Curfew meant if they missed midnight plane they were stuffed, and it would cost a fortune to road transport it)

So we would run from the platter to 6000's, snap the join at reel 3/4, quickly get the full reel off, and start taking up again on a fresh spool. (Yup about 20-30ft of spool 4 got to hit the floor)

As 4-5-6 were playing 1-2-3 were broken down and ready to go. When 4-5-6 finish, they where broken down within 15 mins.

Compare that to a complete platter break (tear) down. That can't be done in 15 mins.

THESE days at my OTHER places, couriers and management understand this kind of thing WONT happen (helps that the projectors can't take up on reels) So they allow a few hours minimum to break down the print. This applies to day shift. Anything that needs to go out that night, (11pm out by 11.30pm) well is it just is not asked for.

Infact often prints sit there made up for days in the oven or sleeve because no one realy cares when it leaves, then its a matter of getting someone off their ass to break it down.

Bill.
 
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 02-04-2003, 02:07 PM:
 
Brad, they're the older Strong Alpha platters (I'll verify the exact model numbers when I'm back in the theater). They're the ones where the last roller in the take up path has a small switch in it that triggers the platter into take-up mode when the tension pulls the roller tight. To prevent the platter from taking up prematurely and pulling the film out of my hand or scratching the film, I disengage the motor.

A 1 foot piece of permacel tape firmly stuck on the 2nd take up ring in such a way that the end facing the tree is open is all that's needed to hold the film in place and start it winding. No need to tuck the film under the notch or scratch it by trying to wind it around the ring and make it grab hold.

The break is made when the splice is on its way from the variac to the top rollers on the platter. There are no pad rollers on those top rollers, so a smooth "up and over" is all you need there.

Tucking the film in between the last "rocking" take up roller and the little pad roller that's attached to it is indeed the trickiest part, but with practice, you get pretty good at it, and our movies are all fairly well film guarded which not only lubes things up so they slide in nicely with little effort, but also prevents any minor scratching that may occur. Or if you want, thread it through the rollers.

Pull the film through the last roller up to the take up ring, tape down the open end of permacel tape onto the film, spin the platter by hand to get the variac to a middle-of-the-road position, and re-engage the platter motor. You're off and running and free to start tearing down the first half of the movie normally just like it was another movie.

Something else to keep in mind, pay out from the top platter when you do this. Because the wind caused by tearing down over top of a platter that's paying out is a recipe for problems. At least on our platters it is.

You only need to do this ONCE to any print to get a real jump start on breaking down a movie like Gangs of New York, which is already getting out 45 minutes later than everything else. It's not something that we do every week. Only if (when) time constraints are such that a jump start would be a HUGE help.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-04-2003, 02:23 PM:
 
Well I'll have to admit I've never thought of using a loop of Permacel tape to grab the film onto the takeup ring. Pretty smart thinking there. I would still think that the keeper rollers would get in the way and make small marks unless the film was *pushed* through. Fortunately I don't work for companies that kick everyone out immediately after the show is over anymore, so the whole thing is a non-issue. 15 minutes is plenty to break down a full movie anyway.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-04-2003, 02:28 PM:
 
Brad--how fast is your make-up table? It takes me about 30 minutes to break down a "typical" movie from an AW3, and very little of that time is spent splicing leaders on and changing reels.

Or do you take up onto the platter reel and do breakdowns at the rewind bench?
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-04-2003, 02:38 PM:
 
Oh hell no. Breaking down at a rewind bench takes forever and doesn't do nearly as good of a job as a platter does.

Feel free to clock me and check for any mishandling, but 15 minutes is easy. I do follow a few general tips to speed things up though.

I'm sure there are more little things that I do, but I can't remember them right now.

Disclaimer: people with platters that do not have any sort of breakdown backtension clutch (have to pull the motor away from the platter) are pretty much screwed from saving time on breakdown, as they have to hold the edge of the platter to put manual backtension on during breakdown. If they don't, film damage occurs. [Frown]
 
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 02-04-2003, 02:44 PM:
 
quote:
Fortunately I don't work for companies that kick everyone out immediately after the show is over
I'm willing to bet that a lot of the other folks who jumped down my throat don't either.
 
Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 02-04-2003, 03:01 PM:
 
I've always broken prints down off the platter the same way that I build them up on the platter - using 6K reels. Then it's over to the bench to finish the job up.

That way I'm shipping the prints tails out, which is the preferred method (as far as I'm concerned) of receiving a print.

Brad, you mention not disengaging the motor. I'm using an AW3 and have always disengaged the motor while putting tension on the platter by hand. Don't you feel leaving the motor engaged puts too much stress on the film? Or is the AW3 one of those platters you consider it necessary to disengage the motor?
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-04-2003, 06:05 PM:
 
Christie AW3 and SPECO platters should have their motors left engaged. Try and spin the platter backwards by hand and feel the tension. Now press the "makeup" button and spin the platter backwards by hand. Notice the difference? That's the proper tension setting with the makeup button engaged, so yes the motors should be left to drive against the platter decks. Any platter that free spins on breakdown is causing damage to the film. Granted the damage is minor and many people claim they cannot see it, but whether it will be visible on screen will depend on many factors (mostly how bright your image is), but the damage IS there and it is permanent. Every time the film is handled like that it just gets worse and worse. [Frown]

(Yes my super simple "clutch addon" tips page is coming in the very near future for those other crappy platter designs out there.)
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-04-2003, 07:07 PM:
 
You should not be expected to do the impossible and whoever agreed that this was possible in the first place dug the grave for the rest of you. Someone should have simply said x minutes is how long it takes and that would have been that.

If next they tell you that after your booth work is done you also need to clean all the auditoria and you have to be done in 15 minutes are you going to kill yourself trying to figure out some ridiculous way to comply? There are some things that simply should not be tried because it's bad if it doesn't work and worse if it does.
 
Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 02-05-2003, 03:25 AM:
 
quote:
When a reel is rewinding, go ahead and make sure that whoever built the film DID leave the tail leader on the hub of the next reel. Why people ever remove the tail leader from the reel is something that just makes no sense. You just have to wind it right back on anyway, and it wastes a LOT of breakdown time. Also, make sure that the depot did not clip the reel together wrong, such that there is no drive pin hole to use. You will waste a lot of time if you don't have the reel properly re-assembled before it is time to mount the reel on the MUT.
Amen!

That covers some of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to print break-downs!
Granted, it's rare that I'm breaking down a print that I did not build. Yet without fail, when I'm handling a the break-down of someone else's build, I find tail leaders not on reels, reels clipped together wrong, or both. [Razz] grrr...
 
Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 02-05-2003, 10:38 AM:
 
Just received information that there is going to be a 12 minute intermission built into the print. Total running time is 229 minutes of which 217 is actual footage.

Waiting to hear confirmation that 12 minutes is built into the print.
 
Posted by Michael Atkinson (Member # 1440) on 02-05-2003, 02:14 PM:
 
The following has been posted on the WB Exhibitor Services site:

quote:
NOW PLAYING: The Civil War Gets an Intermission
A twelve-minute break has been added to Gods and Generals.

Here are some points to consider for your presentation of Gods and Generals:

The Intermission is twelve minutes long, making the feature's total running time three hours and forty-nine minutes.
An Intermission card will appear onscreen 339 feet + 2 frames into Reel 8 of the feature.
This card will hold for fifteen seconds before fading out
Following the card, each print will have eight minutes of black slugged in.
Four minutes of gray with music to cue the audience that the film is resuming will follow the eight minutes of black.

PLEASE DO:

Set magnetic cue tape to bring up the house lights and close the curtain when Intermission begins, and to bring the lights back down and open the curtains back up when Intermission ends.
Alert your floor staff to the Intermission, as a large portion of the audience may head for the lobby, bathrooms, and concession stand.

PLEASE DON'T:

Remove ANY black from the film print.
Shut off the projector during Intermission.


 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-05-2003, 02:18 PM:
 
You heard it folks! Everyone go out and by automations that use foil tape and support intermissions. [Smile]
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-05-2003, 02:29 PM:
 
Might they be doing this to standardize the length of the intermission to exactly 12 minutes? Most features would have the intermission at a reel change. Most theatres would like some flexibility in the length of the intermission, depending on crowd size and staffing. [Confused]
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-05-2003, 02:44 PM:
 
That's such an incredible waste of film. 8 minutes of nothing but black??? I knew Warner liked to have lots of black on the head of their movies, but this is ridiculous! I guarantee you a LOT of people will chop that 8 minutes out of their print. Maybe they will put it back in for breakdown, but a lot of people will WANT to split up the movie onto 2 platter decks and have a re-thread to clean out the projector or reset media.

The biggest problem I see is that they are BEGGING for people's dousers to be melted during that 8 minute blast. I'm programming my automations to shut the lamp off.

I'll also bet that a lot of theaters will want to split up the show if for no other reason so that they do not have to motor through the last half if there is a no show. Also, John is certainly right that the intermission may need to be altered depending on the size of the crowds.

So are we allowed to cue the processor back to non-sync for the 8 minutes, or are we supposed to let people sit in silence? Really, what's the point of putting the GRAY if they don't want people to stop the projector? Seems like complete BLACK film would've made much more sense given how many automations out there are a joke in terms of configurable features.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-05-2003, 02:48 PM:
 
You mean there's no music on the film during the intermission? It's just black leader? Ugh! The intermission should have been placed at a reel change, either with walk-out music at the end of one reel and walk-in music at the beginning of another or they should have had a separate reel just for the intermission music.

I just love the way that Warner memo assumes that every theatre a) uses automation and b) can configure it to do what they want.
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-05-2003, 03:16 PM:
 
With my shitastic automation, I can't lower the lights with a cue. I can raise them, but lowering them is not possible unless you hit the start button or the light toggle switch. I can make my automation stop the projector on a cue, though. I will probably have to remove the black and make sure I splice it back on (out of frame, of course) when the movie is broken down.
 
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 02-05-2003, 03:20 PM:
 
If we end up getting this movie (I don't think its coming to Eau Claire this weekend) we will be forced to play it in one of the six auditoriums added in 1997 since out automations on the 'old side' aren't capable of handling this. That won't be a problem for the first few weeks since our two THX screens are on the new side anyway, but the other four screens on that side are all analog, whereas all six screens on the old side feature DTS. Since a war movie really needs digital sound we will then be forced to keep it in one of our two THX screens for its whole run or put it in an analog house and run it with sub-standard sound.
 
Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 02-05-2003, 06:27 PM:
 
What brain dead genius came up with that directive? Must have been an usher who was trained in a previous life to thread and push a button.
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-05-2003, 06:45 PM:
 
>>>>Four minutes of gray with music to cue the audience that the film is resuming will follow the eight minutes of black.<<<

Why not just play some music for the entire 12 minutes with a count down clock showing counting down from 12 minutes. They could have different still scenes showing in the background.

I know that Gettysburg had a five minute intermission with music. An extra five minutes was added for rethread. that one was 4 Hrs. 20 Mins.

There is still the issue of the DTS discs. Would someone remember to be there at the black to switch over to the third disc.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-05-2003, 07:09 PM:
 
Not only that Darryl, but I'm sure it will be released on 3 discs, not 4. The BIG question is will the folks at dts ENSURE that the reels are placed on the discs in order for all of the 2 drawer machines out there??? If not, then the projectionist won't be able to simply eject the A disc, load up the C disc and reboot. The only solution will be to burn copies in the proper order.
 
Posted by Coleman L. Zatarain (Member # 1559) on 02-05-2003, 07:10 PM:
 
Here was the information given to me reguarding this issue:

The Intermission has been inserted into the middle of Reel 8.

The Intermission card will fade up at 339 feet + 2 frames into Reel 8 (the picture will have faded to black). The Intermission card will hold for 15 seconds and fade out. The Intermission will be slugged on the release prints for 12 minutes (8 minutes of silent black slug - followed by 4 minutes of slug with music to cue the audience that we are starting again). Then the film will resume.

The Intermission will add 12 minutes to the running time of the film, making it 3 hours, 49 minutes [sleep] .
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-05-2003, 08:36 PM:
 
Make sure you wake up for Ted Turner's cameo.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-05-2003, 08:40 PM:
 
Interesting, the trade print is in mid-shot at 339 feet and 2 frames. Go further back (about 50 feet) and there is a dissolve that could be changed to a fade out/fade in. Guess that's where they are going to put it.
 
Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 02-06-2003, 03:46 AM:
 
...hmm, with the equipment I'm working with, I could set up the intermission in an inventive manner, depending on how we need to do it. I've got an 'intermission' feature to play with, when it's on, an 'end show' cue will stop the machine, and cut the lamp, and from there it could just be motored to where it needed to be, exceptionally handy if 12 minutes isn't a long enough intermission for a large crowd - can wait to restart when necessary. [Smile]
And hooray! I have no trouble with automation & cues for the lights - they all function fine! [Smile]
 
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 02-06-2003, 08:39 AM:
 
An intermission in the middle of a reel change would also allow multiplexes to bike the two halves between two auditoriums.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-06-2003, 12:02 PM:
 
Although I wouldn't normally do something like this, I'll probably just remove the black film and add my own head and tail leader to create a new reel change if I end up running this somewhere. The only possible problem with this would be at a theatre that uses Movie Tunes for non-sync and slides. Subjecting the audience to either of these would be terribly tacky, which is perhaps what Warners is trying to avoid here. I'd probably just manually turn off the slides and put the processor into an unused format or turn off the exciter for the intermission, if I end up running it at one of these theatres.

Oh, and I'd leave the walk-in music, but run it with the hand douser closed. Why did they think that the picture should be "grey" instead of black? It would look terrible if projected on a curtain or even a blank screen, and lots of operators are too stupid to close the hand douser during walk-in/walk-out music.

(Of course, I'd definitely save the black film and put everything back together properly before shipping it out. It still seems like a waste of film, though.)
 
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 02-06-2003, 12:30 PM:
 
Would it be worth it to turn off the bulb for ten minutes, or more strain on the bulb than it's worth?

I think you're right about the slides and movie tunes. Although I think I'd prefer music running for the entire twelve minutes, all black and maybe a countdown clock of some sort. Everyone is talking about Gettysburg... anyone else remember The Rescuers Down Under? 10 minute cartoon, 10 minute intermission, and then 1 hour feature?
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-06-2003, 12:48 PM:
 
My rule of thumb is to leave a lamp on if it will be used again within an hour, but then I am running 1600's and I figure that the wear of running vs. wear of starting tradeoff is more favorable to keeping them on than it would be on a high wattage lamp. But whether or not the tradeoff is a sliding scale or not (subject for a separate discussion) I cannot see turning off a lamp for 12 minutes regardless of wattage.

Warner Bros. says that without the built-in intermission the film should be stopped at the end of R8 for 15 minutes.
 
Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 02-07-2003, 04:52 AM:
 
somehow, I forsee myself writing out a checklist of sorts, and posting it by a machine running Gods & Generals, detailing an 'intermission procedure' ...
[Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-09-2003, 01:37 PM:
 
Has anyone seen any "how it was filmed" info on G&G? It looks sharp enough that one would presume anamorphic negative but I don't see negative splices so unless this is Super 35 done extremely well, with very slow, ultra fine grained negative or they went through a digital intermediate stage. Perhaps both.
 
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 02-09-2003, 02:00 PM:
 
The fact that our aforementioned presentation with the Associate Producer had 30-minutes of excerpts on DVD suggests digital intermediate to me. Of course, that is hardly a strong indicator.

--jhawk
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-09-2003, 02:54 PM:
 
I'm not following your logic. If you mean merely that it exists on video that doesn't really mean much since most films are edited on Avids or other workstations so that means it exists in a video format.

BTW, the matte paintings still look like matte paintings even with moving images inserted into them. There is something quaint and soothing about that.
 
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 02-09-2003, 03:30 PM:
 
You're right Steve. I guess I keep forgetting that [Embarrassed] .

--jhawk
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-09-2003, 04:10 PM:
 
In case anyone cares, the former Vice Chairman of AOL Time Warner, founder of CNN, Mouth of the South, Captain Outrageous, and Jane's ex turns up at the end of Reel 9.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-10-2003, 10:12 AM:
 
The cinematography of "Gods and Generals" will be featured in the March 2003 issue of "American Cinematographer":

http://www.theasc.com/magazine/main.htm
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 02-10-2003, 02:26 PM:
 
The "GODS AND GENERALS" soundtrack CD was released last week and I bought a copy and it is wonderful. Not only does the CD have almost sixty two minutes of music, it also comes with a seperate DVD with about twenty four minutes of program material. They include the music video to the two ballads featured in the movie and on the soundtrack CD. THe first one is titled GOING HOME" and sung by Mary Fahl. The second one that will be used over the end credit of the movie is sung by Bob Dylan and is titled "CROSS THE GREEN MOUNTAIN". Both of the music video and the "GODS AND GENERALS" trailer that is also included is in Pro Logic sound but the six deleted scenes from the movie on the disk has 5.1 sound. I was expecting another Randy Edelman score on the music CD but this time, he share the honor with John Frizzell. From the play list that came with the CD, I have noticed that the majority of the tracks was written by John Frizzell. Not including the two ballads, out of the seventeen tracks, there are thirteen by Frazzell and only four by Randy Edelman. Because most of the musc is by Frazzell, the sound track to the movie does not resemble the "GETTYSBURG" composition. "GETTYSBURG"'s music was majestic and grand but the "GODS AND GENERALS" music is more subdued but still elegant. If you like very mellow new age music, you will enjoy this album.

-Claude
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-10-2003, 05:42 PM:
 
Judging by the trailers I've seen, "God's and Generals" clearly looks like it was shot with anamorphic lenses. Check out the large Quicktime movie trailer from Apple's site:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/gods_and_generals/qt_520x216.html

There are several shots revealing artifacts of anamorphic photography. Don't know about any digital intermediate work. It looks like normal 'scope to me.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-10-2003, 07:59 PM:
 
Before my recent preview screening and during the intermission I played some tracks from Ken Burns / The Civil War and also something called "The Vacant Chair" that I stumbled upon. I think a Kathy Mattea version but I'm not sure.

I agree it looked like true anamorphic. But no neg splices visible on the print makes it something to look into.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-10-2003, 09:45 PM:
 
quote:
I agree it looked like true anamorphic. But no neg splices visible on the print makes it something to look into.
Maybe they cut the negative into A and B rolls ("checkerboard cutting") with printer "zero-cuts" to hide the splices. Or they used a true "CinemaScope" splicer with narrow overlap:

http://www.acvl.org/3c.htm

In either case, "Anamorphic Done Right". [Cool]
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-11-2003, 08:09 PM:
 
Wow, that directive from WB must have been written by someone old enough to remember single screen movie palaces and Roadshow presentations -- he thinks he is going to get CURTAINS in his intermission scenario?! I guess he doesn't know the multiplex mantra...."Curtains? ....we don't need no stinking curtains."

But it's nice to see that they are at least trying to create a special Roadshow-type presentation for this title. However, as most have already pointed out, the problem is that by trying to micro-manage this intermission, they will force many theatres to throw wrenches into their good intentions. They should have issued a more flexible protocol that individual theatres could tailor to there specific situations.

Like Scott, I certainly would have to rework that break. I need more than 12 minutes and would almost be forced to work around their intermission-in-the-middle-of-the-reel idea. In a 2500 seat house, you would be crazy to think that once you let a large audience loose for an intermission, that they would ever be able to get back to their seats in 12 minutes. And I don't have to tell you how unpleasant it is to have to stand there and listen to the complaints from those who come back from the restrooms only to find the film already started.

Since the soundtrack is already released on CD, it will be easy to fill in however much time we need for an intermission with appropriate music from the film.

Frank

PS You know, even though a theatre doesn't have curtains, there are other ways to prevent that naked screen from staring back at the audience like someone caught with their pants off. There are a number of light machines that are designed mainly for clubs but that can throw attractive moving colored light patterns on any movie screen.

One that I have uses slowly sweeps ever-changing color wisps of light across the screen -- like the Star Trek Voyager's warp core, only more colorful and a lot slower -- almost lyrical. Some of these lighting instruments are quite sophistocated using multiple prisms and gobos and can change their patterns triggered by the music from the speakers. These devices can be very effective alternatives when a screen is curtainless. I even toyed with the idea of using the Visualation programs in audio players like Realplayer or Windows Media Player and project their patterns on the screen with an LCD projector. I've yet to try it, but that should be excellent if it will read with the house lights up.
 
Posted by Tom Ferreira (Member # 70) on 02-13-2003, 08:36 AM:
 
How wide is WB actually going with this film? I can't imagine that a lot of the smaller towns are going to see this film until the DVD shows up at Walmart later this year. I'm willing to bet a lot of bookers won't touch this film with a ten foot pole.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-13-2003, 08:17 PM:
 
If there are no 70mm prints then it's not wide enough! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 02-14-2003, 03:26 AM:
 
Warner Brothers seem to have a lot of faith in "GODS & GENERALS" because it is also going to be released in a few DLP equipped theatres. I do not know how many of you are interested in seeing this movie but being an American civil war fan, I have been waiting for this movie for a very long time. I was more than happy with the CD soundtrack last week and I am sure I will also like the movie. Some of my favorite civil war movies are "THE RED BADGE OF COURAGE", "GLORY" and "GETTYSBURG". I have "GLORY" and will replace "GETTYSBURG" on DVD that was stolen recently and I am still looking for "THE RED BADGE OF COURAGE" which was just released by Warner Brothers Home Video.

-Claude
 
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 02-14-2003, 08:24 AM:
 
Gods & Generals in DLP? How much hard drive space will THAT take up?
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-14-2003, 08:27 AM:
 
I don't know an exact size that it would take up, but most DLP servers I have seen are capable of storing at least two features.
 
Posted by Aldo Baez (Member # 790) on 02-14-2003, 11:32 PM:
 
Luckily I am able to cue just my lights with some modifications I did without closing the douser. It'll be a perfect cue to half lights, then back down again woohoo.

To bring up a previous post by Brad just how on earth would you make the automation turn off the bulb then turn it back on again? Is this using Christie's automation or something different. I'm assuming you would need to have a good grasp of all the wiring.

I am surprised we are going to get this movie, we usually don't get stuff like this. I'm crossing my fingers that it would be put in a medium sized dolby house so I won't have to worry about DTS and won't have to move it during its run but I doubt my manager would do it. And if it IS 4 discs that is going to be a nightmare getting the other projectionists to keep tabs on switching the discs.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-14-2003, 11:49 PM:
 
Aldo,

The CA21 automations being the gift from the gods can do anything, but even many regular run-of-the-mill automations can do this. Check yours and see if you can't just flip the exciter and xenon control leads such that the start button will fire the motor and exciter (or led) and then 7 seconds later (or at a start cue) the xenon will fire. Pretty simple.
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 02-15-2003, 06:26 PM:
 
According to tomorrow's L.A. Times article on digital intermediates:

In 2001, three films used the process. In 2003 there will be about 40, among them Warner Bros' "Gods and Generals," Disney's "Open Range," Sony's "S.W.A.T.," and Miramax's :Hero."
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-15-2003, 10:23 PM:
 
Joe reported that there are 3 dts discs and there is a note in the cans explaining that during the 8 minute silent intermission, people with 2 drawer dts units must remove disc A and replace it with disc C, then reboot. The B disc must remain in the player at all times.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-01-2003, 10:23 PM:
 
March 2003 American Cinematographer reports G&G being shot on Vision 200T 5274 and Vision 500T 5279 with Panavision C and E (older) series anamorphic lenses (because of the number of cameras needed and also because the newer Primos were too sharp for the look wanted). Transfer to digital was via Thomson Spirit Datacine and back to film via an Arrilaser film recorder. They output on intermediate stock but it's not specified if they went directly to a number of IN's for making prints or output an IP and made the IN's conventionally.

What's interesting is that the digital work was done at 2K resolution. DP Kees Van Oostrum: "We worked at 2K resolution which is about half of what we have on the negative, because that's what's affordable today. I think the results look natural. Eventually 4K will be practical and that will be a big step forward." I thought it looked pretty good; much better than Super 35 albeit not as sharp as pure anamorphic without a digital intermediate. Of course the 2K referred to is the horizontal resolution. One presumes that the vertical resolution is upped from what it would be on a 1.85 show by the same proportion than the Scope frame is taller than the flat widescreen frame.
 
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-01-2003, 10:46 PM:
 
Is direct to IN really ever done? While it clearly gives you better results, I get the impression that laser film recorder time is pretty costly, and it would limit you down the road when you wanted to produce more INs down the road [perhaps 5 or 10 years].

Maybe that's irrational though. Are there usually backup ("protection"?) INs produced that aren't given to the labs to make thousands of release prints? I guess if they're producing a half-dozen INs, there's no reason they couldn't produce an IP too.

Again, I'm thinking with an eye to someone saying in 2007, "I'd like to strike one print of Gods and Generals."

--jhawk
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-11-2003, 03:38 PM:
 
Recall that Ted Costas (before his move to Dolby) reported that the duplicate negatives made for release printing of "Star Wars Episode 2: Attack of the Clones" were all first-generation laser recordings of the digital master.

The current generation of ARRILASER film recorders take several seconds to expose each frame:

http://www.arri.com/prod/digital/laser/prod/prod.htm

The film normally used is the very sharp and fine-grained Kodak VISION Color Intermediate film:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/5242.shtml
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-11-2003, 03:51 PM:
 
I always found it interesting that the same film stock is used for both IP's and IN's, like there has never been a need to optimize for either negative or positive.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-11-2003, 04:16 PM:
 
Basically, the gamma (contrast) is nominally 1.0, and the intent is to perfectly reproduce the image contained in the original negative. The improvement in image quality of Kodak intermediate film since the early 1970's has been very remarkable, and recognized twice by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 1978 and 1994 with Academy Awards of Merit (Oscars).
 




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