Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Questions about Spy Kids 3D

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Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 06-10-2003, 04:02 PM:

From what I have heared this is going to use the over-under 3D used on "Ghosts of the Abyss". Is that true? And does anyone know if Disney will add more 3D screens to the few that are out there already? I had some guests ask me about it yesterday, and whether or not we would play it. I told them to keep an eye on our website.

Basicly I'm trying to detrmine the likelyhood that my theatre will be able to show it.

Posted by Andrew Walls (Member # 179) on 06-10-2003, 04:53 PM:

It will be type that uses the Red/Blue glasses. The projectors will not need the lens modification.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 06-10-2003, 04:59 PM:

I have two weeks of screenings of that picture starting July 14th. As of this moment they are D5 screenings.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-10-2003, 07:19 PM:

RED/BLUE?? You mean they're not even using that newer system where the lenses are the same color? (brownish)

Ugh.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-10-2003, 11:41 PM:

From what I understand it is not the red/blue glasses and it is not over under but a technique that developed its own left and right eye images on the film that are already converged as if you were using over and under and will use the standard 3-D glasses not the red and blue. Apparently according to Robert Rodregues (? spelling) the 3-D effects turned out very well.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 06-10-2003, 11:55 PM:

Hey - finally something different........

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-11-2003, 12:01 AM:

here is some interesting reading on the subject.

Las Vegas, Nevada ? April 7th 2003 ? At NAB 2003, Softimage Co., a subsidiary of Avid Technology, Inc. announced today that the SOFTIMAGE®|XSI® software, the industry?s leading nonlinear 3-D production environment, SOFTIMAGE|XSI Batch, the company?s batch processing and rendering solution, and SOFTIMAGE|XSI Batch Serve, the company?s rendering management and automation software are all playing key roles in the making of ?Spy Kids 3D: Game Over.? This third installment of Robert Rodriguez? highly successful children?s movie will feature extensive stereoscopic elements (which will require the audience to wear 3-D glasses) and a host of new CG characters, creatures and vehicles, all of which are being created with the help of Softimage products.

To handle the extreme demands of this project, leading visual effects company Hybride Technologies, whose credits include ?Spy Kids? 1 and 2, ?Napoleon? and ?Art of War,?recently ramped up its already well-equipped Softimage-based facility. Today, Hybride has dedicated over 40 XSI artiststo the ?Spy Kids 3D? project and built a powerful 100 dual CPU render farm based on the SOFTIMAGE|XSI Batch system and managed by the SOFTIMAGE|XSI Batch Serve software to deal with the intense image processing requirements of stereoscopic scenes and the hundreds of CG shots.

Hybride?s President and Co-Founder Pierre Raymond explains:

?The experience we had with Spy Kids 2, which involved 650 VFX shots, was so positive that there was never any doubt in our minds that XSI was the tool of choice for handling even bigger and more challenging projects. ?Spy Kids 3D? is much more demanding than its predecessor, from both a graphical and project management point of view. The new movie involves even more shots, and many of them have to be created in stereoscopy. We?re now several months into production on Spy Kids 3 and we?re on target! From a productivity and creative perspective, SOFTIMAGE|XSI and Batch continue to beat everything else we?ve seen or previously used hands down.?

?Spy Kids 3D: Game Over? will feature a number of new CG characters, creatures and vehicles created with the help of the SOFTIMAGE|XSI production environment as Marc Bourbonnais, Senior Technical Director at Hybride technologies explains:

?We are using XSI to work on the modeling, texture, animation and rigging of all the characters and vehicles of the movie. With features like the Animation Mixer and Synoptic View, together with all the already proven animation tools, we?re finding that all our animators, even those who have no technical background whatsoever, are finding it intuitive, easy to learn and simple to use. These features also make it easier for new animators to come up to speed quickly and focus on their craft.?

?Creating stereoscopic scenes of CG shots has been made a lot easier than we thought, thanks to the amazingly flexible render tree in XSI. Of course with CG shots, you can?t use a special 3-D camera. So what we did was to render each shot twice; the first time as if it were seen from the right eye, and the second time as if it were seen from the left eye and then interleaved the two shots to create the stereoscopic effect,? adds Bourbonnais.

?Spy Kids 3D: Game Over? is scheduled to be released on over 2000 screens in North America on July 25th. The story line takes the spy kids into a virtual-reality video game where anything is possible. Once the characters go into the videogame, the audience puts on the 3-D glasses to enjoy the full experience of the amazing effects and virtual reality sceneries. Antonio Banderas and Carla Gugino are reprising their roles as Gregorio and Ingrid Cortez. Alexa Vega and Daryl Sabara will return as Carmen and Juni Cortez, and Ricardo Montalban will be the grandfather. This installment will also feature Sylvester Stallone as the villain.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 06-11-2003, 02:23 AM:

i don't quite understand this new 3-d method (as described by darryl). i would be intrigued enough to check it out if the movie didn't look so atrocious. i saw a tv spot for it the other day. and it had an audience shot, wearing red/blue glasses. oops!

carl

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 06-11-2003, 03:43 AM:

I'm confused, too. AFAIK, it's physically impossible to produce a perceived 3D image with glasses without either polarizing or color keying the images.

Hey, Bill ... what the heck are D5 screenings?

Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 06-11-2003, 07:34 AM:

Hi,all!
Have seen special effects shots of Spy Kids 3, Hybride Technologies are about 1 mile away from my theatre, hence they, do all their work on computers, have a 35 print made -up from this, then test on screen in a real movie house, What they are supplying are the two colour glasses, no need for polarized glasses or silver screen on this feature,(seen up to last week) most effects are digital images (Monsters robots etc,) very little live action characters, for what it this, 3 d is reasonably Okay..., nothing to compare with say, Muppet 3d at Disney world.

Tom

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-11-2003, 07:45 AM:

Wow, and there whole explanation in that story I posted makes it sound like something new. I was wondering about how they could do it without polarizing it too. Thought maybe from the way they explained it it was going to be something of interest now I could care less.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 06-11-2003, 08:52 AM:

quote:
RED/BLUE?? You mean they're not even using that newer system where the lenses are the same color? (brownish)

Small point: If you're talking about polarizing the two images, that was the ORIGINAL way to separate them. Red/green / red/blue came later. If you haven't already, check out the 3d film fest page. [Smile]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 06-11-2003, 09:28 AM:

Adam

D5 is a Digital Video format with Dolby E encoded soundtrack.

Posted by Jeff Stuckey (Member # 1718) on 06-11-2003, 10:50 AM:

Actually, we have already received boxes upon boxes of the RED/BLUE glasses for Spy Kids 3D, so that is the format that will be used.

I would look for this one to be similar to Freddy's Dead, where the audience members didn't put the glasses on until a certain part of the movie. Probably only the last 30 minutes or so is actually in 3-D.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-11-2003, 11:22 AM:

Am I correct in assuming that this process will work on a normal screen and doesn't require the silver screen that polarized (over/under or side-by-side) 3D needs?

Posted by Andrew Walls (Member # 179) on 06-11-2003, 01:58 PM:

Correct...

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 06-11-2003, 02:04 PM:

Thanks, Bill.

The color keyed processes (red/green, red/blue, cyan/amber) are single-frame single-strip and don't require a silver screen or projector modifications.

Posted by Andrew Lee (Member # 1330) on 06-11-2003, 02:49 PM:

Red/Blue or "Anaglyph" does not require a special screen or projector to present 3D.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-11-2003, 03:16 PM:

quote:
Small point: If you're talking about polarizing the two images, that was the ORIGINAL way to separate them. Red/green / red/blue came later. If you haven't already, check out the 3d film fest page.

I think the Red and blue came first. I remember my dad telling me about some 3-D movies he saw back in the hey day that used the Red and Blue glasses. He always complained about them.

Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 06-11-2003, 03:55 PM:

quote:
Probably only the last 30 minutes or so is actually in 3-D.

I can assume the audience will be told when to put on the glasses. I hope so, we all know how stupid a large group of people can be. I use to get compalints that the movie was "moving strange", only to find out it was the slide projector.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 06-11-2003, 10:21 PM:

D-5 was the tape format used for Miramax "digital projection" screenings of AN IDEAL HUSBAND back in 1999 (Laemmle Sunset 5, West Hollywood, 1 theatre in New York.

http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/vtrs_vcrs/f_aj-d580h.html is the current Panasonic model number for D-5 playback:

for studio mastering:

http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/vtrs_vcrs/f_aj-hd3700a.html

Posted by Nicholas Roznovsky (Member # 861) on 06-11-2003, 11:44 PM:

I can't wait for that rush of customers midway through the movie when they realize that they need those glasses they chunked in the trash on their way into the theater. I seem to remember at least a few coming out to the box office during Freddy's Dead to sheepishly claim another pair of glasses (or vehemently deny that they received any in the first place).

It's a cool idea and something that kids will enjoy. It's a bit of a pain, but all in all I think it's worth it. Anything that can make a movie an event is a good thing, especially when so many customers seem to think that DVDs can offer a better presentation than their local theater. [Roll Eyes]

Although its gimmicky, I'm all for it if it brings people in.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 06-12-2003, 03:06 AM:

i don't know exactly when polarized 3-d started (sometime in the 50's i guess), but i did see a very old experimental 3-d film that used red/green. from some time in the silent era. it might have been in a touring program of films from the library of congress. in any case, it didn't work for me.

carl

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-12-2003, 07:58 AM:

"The Power of Love" was one of the first 3D movies, released in 1922, using the red/cyan anaglyph process to separate the left eye and right eye images:

http://us.imdb.com/SearchTechnical?PCS:3-D

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-12-2003, 09:59 AM:

Back in the 80s, I remember people refering to the Red/Blue 3D movies as "Headache Vision." -- TV's Ed O'Niel (Al Bundy) made a comment about it during FOX-o-Rama in the mid-90's when you had to go to 7-11 and get the special 3D Glasses and scratch-n-sniff cards to watch and use along with the TV programs.

I still have that Revenge Of The Nerds movie (Nerds in Love?) on tape somewhere in that 3D format. Without the glasses, the picture looked normal, but when you put them on there was noticable depth to the picture. One lens of the glasses was yellowish, and the other one was dark, dark, grey (almost opaque).

=TMP=

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 06-12-2003, 01:42 PM:

That was phony 3-D, if you make one eye darker than the other there's a delayed effect when things are moving left to right. I have that Revenge of the Nerds on tape too, nice seeing that onscreen Fox logo in 3-D [Roll Eyes]

Red/Blue 3-D sucks; I saw some of the 80s 3-D movies like Jaws 3-D and Treasure of the Four Crowns in some real dumps that were still capable of showing polarized 3-D, but the theater I worked at when Freddy's Dead came out couldn't handle polarized which is why they released that in red/blue. Were silver screens common once but not anymore?

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 06-12-2003, 02:17 PM:

The "light/dark" glasses are to take advantage of the Pulfrich Effect, which gives the illusion of 3-d. There was a Super Bowl about 15 years ago that did this, and also an episode of THIRD ROCK FROM THE SUN about 6 years ago. I have both on tape. Actually because of the side-to-side motion of the football game, there was a very good 3-D effect there.

The THIRD ROCK episode was very well done by people who knew how to maximize the effect. It worked very well.

Posted by Andrew Lee (Member # 1330) on 06-12-2003, 02:39 PM:

Anyone can make a Pulfrich 3D video. Take a video cam and film a scene going left to right or right to left. If you hang out of a car window and have "someone else" drive 5-10 miles an hour, film straight ahead and steady.

Take an old par of sunglasses and punch out the leading eye depending on which way you filmed. Watch the video on TV through the one eyed glasses and you will be amazed at the effect. With some time and experimenting you can get some really interesting scenes.

Actually I believe this is the only way you can get any true depth from TV these days(including reality shows).

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 06-13-2003, 08:56 AM:

"L'arrivee du Train" (1903) is considered by some to be the first public theatre exhibition of 3D. One page that I found said that "plates of glass" were used, which suggested to me "polarized glass" although I could be wrong. But there is apparently some confusion on how the illusion was done exactly. If anyone has details on that, I'd love to hear them.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-13-2003, 10:41 AM:

Polarization was a post war development of the land corporation
a sequence in Napoleon was in anaglyphic 3d

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 06-14-2003, 09:00 AM:

Gordon, the idea of showing 3D films in a polarised format was know before lands time, but he made it much more practical as cheap plastic polarises could then be made. In the 1920's 3D was demonstrated in both Anaglyphic and in a mechnical shutter system called the Eclipse system which uses spinning shutters in front of the projectors and the audience, you can see where they got the idea for modern LC shutter glasses! Anaglphics have the problem of only allow certain amounts of postive off screen parallax, after a certain point the brain can not fuse both images together and ghosting happens. 3D film done wrong was what killed 3D everytime it has been released for NORMAL theaters, in the 50's when professional operators were showing 3D technical problems were avoided, just like modern LF (IMAX) style theatres. Will this Anaglyphic sequence kill 3D again and The Ghosts of the Abyse since it had many convergance erros or so I am told!?

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 06-26-2003, 11:31 AM:

quote:
Probably only the last 30 minutes or so is actually in 3-D.

The Hi-Def 3-D effects look very nice. Just finished a D5 test for Miramax. They say the film is about 80-90% 3-D. [Wink]

Posted by Robin Dorking (Member # 460) on 07-13-2003, 06:32 PM:

The system that works with the Red/Blue does not really work like the old polarization way. The 3D image is really created more by movement of the objects being filmed, action is best and the wonder of the human brain.

Here in the UK we have had 2 or 3 television programmes in the past, filmed in this type of format but I think if I remember it was Red/Green because it worked better with the tv system. [dlp]

Posted by Jeff Joseph (Member # 511) on 07-13-2003, 06:33 PM:

The Lumiere train footage in 3-D was done in the mid 1930's, NOT in 1902-03. ALL of the books are wrong on this point. We have the footage; it will be part of the "Rarities" show at the 3-D Film Expo in September.

The first Polaroid short shown publicly was "Motor Rhythm", shown at the 1939 NY World's Fair, in Technicolor. We are opening the Film Expo with this short (before "House of Wax") on September 12.

People talking about red/blue presentations "in the old days" are mostly remembering it wrong. In the 1970s, Universal reissued "Creature From the Black Lagoon" and "It Came From Outer Space" in this format... it was awful.

The 1950s features (starting with "Bwana Devil" in 1952) were ALL shown in dual projector Polaroid 3-D, NOT anaglyphic (red/blue).

This September, we hope to put many of the 3-D myths to rest. Finally. 33 features and 21 shorts, ALL in dual system Polaroid 3-D.

http://www.3dfilmfest.com

See you there!

Jeff

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 07-14-2003, 03:31 AM:

Discussion of Spy Kids 3D has migrated here.