Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: The ADA & Segways?

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Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 06-15-2003, 01:37 AM:

One of the theatres in the company I work for allowed a customer to come in on one of those newfangled Segways. Apparently it was their 'assisted mobility device'. How do you all feel about this? I think it's total bullshit. I replied in a company email that the day I have to allow some asshole on a Big Wheel because it's his assisted mobility device will be my last day on the job.

I also stated in that email that my sister is a parapalegic and I try to adhere to all ADA laws and regulations and I have no problems with assisting those who need any assistance.

I've never seen a Segway in person but it looks like it could pose a danger to other customers. If so, wouldn't it be like letting someone bring their helper animal in who, for whatever reason, appears to pose a threat to others?

Here's a picture I found of Bush trying to ride a Segway...

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 06-15-2003, 04:47 AM:

Haven't you seen the newest ADA approved sign? [Big Grin]

Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 06-15-2003, 05:05 AM:

Mike, that's hilarious! Would you mind emailing that to me, there's a couple theatres in my company I'd like to send that to!

-Mm24fps@yahoo.com

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 06-15-2003, 09:16 AM:

Both are good for a laugh.
I don't mean to be a killjoy, but...

Mathew,
Perhaps the photos tell more about Bush than the Segway?

Mike,
Wouldn't the ADA prefer the spelling ACCESSIBLE?
(I still think of ADA as "Americans for Democratic Action")

--Gerard

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-15-2003, 10:08 AM:

If you look closely at that picture of the President, you will see that there is some mysterious woman PUSHING him off of the thing, and then in the next panel she is GONE! [Eek!]

Someone needs to investigate.

=TMP=

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-15-2003, 10:54 AM:

Since all you do is lean this way or that way to control it I think they said that anyone with half a brain could operate a Segway.

Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 06-15-2003, 12:14 PM:

Thomas, it just hit me that at the end of your posts =TMP= must be your intitials - until now I was reading it as The Motion Picture. You know, like Star Trek TMP. Doi.

Anyway, so if anyone with half a brain could operate this why couldn't Bush? Oh, nevermind.

Still, would you let someone ride into the theatre on one? I just don't like the precedent that would set. I don't let people ride their golf carts or unicycles or big wheels or even their rollerblades. Yet, I've never been confronted with anything other than rollerblades and they didn't shout "ADA Violation" in my face at the time either.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 06-15-2003, 12:37 PM:

Fixed spelling mistake (Thank you, Mr. Cohen).
Added a few more signs for theatres that want to make sure that they're fully ADA complient, while also maintaining safety for thier other guests.

BTW- ADA is an overused acronym (sp?). A few that come to mind-

ADA - Americans with Disablities Act
ADA - American Dental Association
ADA - American Diabetes Association

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-15-2003, 10:36 PM:

There is a growing market for these things for use by people who aren't disabled, per se, but who lack the stamina to walk long distances. Frankly, I think it's a good idea.

Just imagine... A person who can't walk more than a short distance might end up in an electric scooter or wheelchair. After a while, they would lose even MORE stamina because they aren't being "forced" to use the muscle power they have. Instead of keeping the little strength they have left, they LOSE strength and become dependant on the chair.

Check the laws/ordinances in your state or town. That guy who invented the Segway is also big into lobbying for ordinances that, in essence, say that a Segway is allowed to go anywhere an electric wheelchair or scooter is allowed to go.

As far as I'm concerned, if the guy isn't causing a disruption let him be, whether there is an ordinance or not. Trying to keep the guy out only creates bad kharma. OTOH, the second they guy starts making a nuissance of himself... running into things or endangering people... I don't care WHAT laws there are against it, I would toss him out!

If this guy is really putting a bug up your ass for some reason, I would mention to him that it is HIS responsibility to operate his Segway in a safe manner that doesn't damage any property or endanger any people. That's the way it is for people who use wheelchairs!

Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 06-16-2003, 10:18 AM:

How can a Segways be considered an 'assisted mobility device'. I've seen the commercials and they look hard to use. They look hard to control and stay on, I don't see how anyone can say they assist in transportation.

I agree with you Mathew, they should not be allowed in theatres. If a person can stand up and move his body and control this device, he or she is capable of walking like the billions of us on this planet.

I think that photo was photo-shopped. The girl and the bike must use transporters. [Big Grin]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-16-2003, 10:38 AM:

Reportedly, George W. Bush succesfully rode one almost two years ago:

ABC News January 2002

quote:
President Bush Rides Segway

Meanwhile, the Segway caught the attention of the Commander in Chief last week when Kamen joined about 100 friends and backers of President Bush who were invited to a pre-speech reception at the University of New Hampshire.

Kamen was riding a Segway outside the university library, giving rides to a few guests, but Secret Service agents wouldn't let the inventor bring the Segway up to where the President was giving his speech, according to the Union Leader of Manchester, N.H.

During his speech, Bush cited Kamen after he noticed him at the back of the crowd, and later the president chatted with the inventor, who told him he had a Segway downstairs. Secret Service agents quickly brought it up to the floor, and the president rode it around. He picked up how to use it right away, Kamen said.

As for Mr. Malloy's photos, it just wasn't a good Fathers Day weekend for the President. First his golf game gets rained out, then...

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-16-2003, 10:56 AM:

Mike Olpin: You gave me my first good out-loud laugh of the day. [Big Grin]

quote:
Since all you do is lean this way or that way to control it I think they said that anyone with half a brain could operate a Segway.

Just like riding a bicycle for the first time, right? [Wink]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-16-2003, 12:19 PM:

The person has to be able to walk and step up or down (I think) 12 inches to use a Segway. On the other hand, let's say somebody some problem that makes it so they can only walk 100 yards before they need a rest. A Segway would be a perfect solution. You can still get around but you don't have to depend on a wheelchair. If you got into a wheelchair you'd become progressively weaker until you HAD to use it. The Segway allows you to "work" as you are able but doesn't do the "work" for you.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 06-16-2003, 01:26 PM:

I've had the opportunity to ride a segway last november, its a bit awkward to use at first but after 5 minutes its easier to manuver around than a bicycle. They don't go very fast, so I don't see a danger of running someone over. They're next to impossible to fall off of. The one that Duyah was on in the pics appears to have not been on, because as you lean forward it, moves forward, and the one in the pic didn't move.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 06-16-2003, 02:39 PM:

I would have told them that this is not a government certified ADA device (it is not), and that as such, they would need a letter from their doctor (on letterhead) certifying that they need this device to overcome a disability.

If they could produce a legitimate doctors note, I would treat it as I would a wheel chair.

EOP - End Of Problem.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-16-2003, 03:50 PM:

I found THIS PDF document that contains California's laws about the Segway. It appears that, in California at least, it ISN'T given the same rights as a wheelchair. Furthermore, municipalities seem to have the right to ban its use if they think it's a public nuissance. Nothing in the law speaks about its use indoors. Only outdoors.

With this in mind, I'd be inclined to change my position and say that the guy should lock it up on the bicycle rack outside. (Or whatever place there is to lock it up outside.)

I still think a Segway could see good use as an assistive mobility device but, in this case, I think the burden is on the user to show that he really IS using it that way, not just as an excuse to play with his new toy.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-16-2003, 07:32 PM:

I don't think the photos of Bush trying to ride the thing are Photoshopped nor do I think the woman is pushing him. If you look at the pictures, you can see that the camera panned slightly over to the left, so the woman would be out of the frame. And the woman definitely wasn't pushing him, it looked more as if she was offering slight support with her hand as Bush climbed on.

Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 06-16-2003, 09:41 PM:

Based on my limited knowledge of Segways, I figured they were toys- and dangerous at that. But if they did not pose a danger and were to be classified as ADA complient I would have no problem allowing them into the theatre.

And just for your information as funny as most of us found Mike's Segway ADA signs, they did not go over well with our Human Resources department. Wish I had thought they could be offensive to some before I attached them to company email. My bad.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-16-2003, 11:24 PM:

The standard answer to the Segway safety question: Say that you bumped into somebody while riding one. It would be similar to bumping into somebody while you were running. Furthermore, they say, since the thing operates by the computer inside sensing its position the computer would "know" that a sudden change in its motion/direction happening and likely would cause it to stop. Since you operate it by leaning, if you ran into a wall for example, it would tip backward. The computer would interpret that as a signal to stop moving.

As interesting as that sounds, running into a person at speeds of up to 12 miles per hour could injur somebody or damage property. Jeez, if you propelled one person at another at that speed it would HURT! Top that off with another 100 pounds of machinery and, yes Virginia, somebody's going to feel pain!

This doesn't include running into objects, running over somebody's foot or driving it over the edge of a drop off. Cripes! I get hurt just stepping off the curb, sometimes! [Wink]

So, what does the guy in question appear to be? Is he some young-ish guy who looks like he's just showing off a new toy? Or, does he even remotely look like he is using it for a reason? Y'know, many if not most people I have seen using wheelchairs or scooters seem to be on the lookout for the pitfalls of using their device. They look out for obstacles... They often slow down when they get near people... etc, etc. Not all whellchair people do this but I'm sure you've seen the kind of people I'm talking about. You can just tell. I'd say you can use his demeanor as a clue about his "medical necessity".

Here's a ling I found to a semi-official site about Segway news and info. There's lots of info and Q&A.

www.segwaychat.com

And, if you want the "company line"...

www.segway.com

Posted by David Rigby (Member # 1301) on 06-17-2003, 09:58 AM:

Segways aren't really available in the UK to any extent at present. What a shame. At only £4000 I'd buy one right off!!

My main beef with these things is that far from being an 'assisted mobility device' they're being marketed as a lazy-ass way to get around town. Rather than helping folks get more mobile, they're more likely to make people LESS mobile since a short walk around town is all the exercise many people get. I'd say deny access unless the user has a definite verifiable need - otherwise it's just an expensive toy (I'm guessing folks can't ride horses into the lobby...).

David

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-17-2003, 08:26 PM:

Mathew, I hope you are well liked and respected in your company, and that it's not too big. Going around sending company wide e-mails like that would probably be a good way to get them to want to get rid of you. I have no idea what your situation is since I don't work there, but I'd just like to say "be careful!"

Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 06-17-2003, 10:29 PM:

Thanks Joe - I like to think I'm pretty well liked and respected in the company. I admitted a lack of judgement on my part and things are cool. It really never occured to me that the Segway spoof could be found offensive. The point was made to me that ADA signs are a necessity for a protected portion of the public. To make light of such as a representative of the company is unwise. (-My words.)

Personally, I felt Mike's drawings were anything but offensive and I think I'm a compassionate guy. I get angry at people who falsly use handicap parking permits and the whole Segway issue stirred up similar emotions. Again, I thought it was akin to a toy, and a dangerous one at that. Not something someone with special needs would use.

By the way, as I mentioned in my first post, this did not happen at my theatre but at another theatre. I was hoping to make sense of the whole issue but put my foot in my mouth instead. [Big Grin]

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 06-18-2003, 03:18 PM:

Before I get into my defensive rant about wheelchairs and the people that use them...

ALLOW ME FIRST to defend our extremely smart president bush. Since the people stating that you only need half a brain to operate one, probably haven't operated one, makes me wonder if they are speaking for the half a brain crowd? [evil]

Besides, you don't know the circumstances for the fall. It is a humorous picture, even I laugh at it, but come on!!! [Mad]

Ok, now on to the realities of wheelchair use.

First of all, This damned device is NEVER going to be an endorsed Assistive Device under the ADA guidelines. It moves too fast. The standard acceptable maximum speed for motorized AD's is about 4 mph, with a maximum braking distance of about ONE foot from maximum speed. This device will not EVER fit the bill.

It has been said in this forum that people that use wheelchairs when they can still walk around makes them use the wheelchair more and more then they really lose the use of the legs. Other things were said that were pretty offensive, but I am quite sure it is unintentional. People view those in wheelchairs as not whole people, or just lazy people.

This is very old thinking. The American Medical Association has recently decided that people who live with temporary to permanent chronic non-cancer pain should not have to suffer needlessly. The old thinking that people will become dependant on pain medications and wheelchairs is going out the window.

First, opiod pain medications attack pain centers in those that suffer from chronic pain, and physiological addiction is unlikely, as is damage to any body parts from long term use. In fact, long term use of Opiods is safer than long term use of Ibuprofen, Tylenol, aspirin, or naprasyn, in patients with long term chronic pain.

Second, the use of assistive devices for those that are not prevented from walking yet suffer in extreme pain from prolonged exposure to walking in excess of 1000 feet is recommended. It is not necessary to force someone to stay at home because of chronic pain. The use of wheelchairs as assistive devices in those that cannot walk more than a few hundred feet at a time or per day is a great benefit. The patient still undergoes a solid excersise regimen orchestrated by the patients physicians and followed up with physical therapists.

You don't see anyone throwing a fuss about people who sit on thier ass all day at work in front of a computer do you?

I myself have found myself bound to a wheelchair if I want to go somewhere. I can only walk about 300 feet at a time, and about 1500 feet per day, TOTAL. I have a nerve disorder that has decimated my ability to walk great distances.

It is totally possible to go without it. I can walk to the car, drive to the theater, walk in and sit down to a film. However, by then, the pain levels are so high that I cannot enjoy the film, the ambiance, the experience, or my wonderful fiance who has stuck by me through all of this. Would anyone deny me my ability to enjoy my life, just becuase I can still walk a bit?

Believe me, people in wheelchairs are not happy about it. The world is not at our beck and call. I still maintain a very healthy excercise complement that keeps me walking about 1500 feet per day, and even that is extremely painful.

Before the wheelchair, which I received just a week ago, I was stuck at home for the last eight months, only able to go to physical therapy and the hospital for various treatments and appointments. Now with the chair, and in just ONE week, I have gone to two movies, the zoo, two different parks, and THREE walks around the block with the love of my life.

The people on these damned segways are just lazy asses. Use em while you can people, these legs are not to be taken for granted. People in wheelchairs face a very tough road, and constant non-acceptance. People see them as a nuisance, not as humans.

PS... I found the new ADA segway signs a hoot! Plan to post em on the front door. Have any good ones with wheelchairs???

Dave

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-18-2003, 04:12 PM:

The Segway can be programmed to only travel at a maximum speed. Yes, the top speed is 12 mph. but in practice they aren't driven that fast. If one wanted to limit the top speed it's as simple as inserting a different electronic key into the thing.

Yes, some people are at risk of becoming dependant on their assistive devices. My Grandfather was one. He had diabetes. He slowly lost the use of his legs because of the disease. When he went to live in the nursing home, one of the first questions that got asked was, "Should we buy him a wheelchair?" The doctor said that would be a bad idea because he would lose the use of his legs even faster. He wanted my Grandfather to use his legs as much as possible. Later on, his legs got so weak he couln't walk for more than a few feet at a time, even with a walker. Again we asked, "Shoule be buy him a wheelchair?" This time the answer was, "Yes, but not a motorized one". The doctor wanted him to use his arms for cardiovascular excercise. He still wanted to encourage Grandfather to stand and walk the few feet he was able to prevent him from becoming totally wheelchair bound. Otherwise he would need constant 'round the clock care, lest he become unable to use the bathroom my himself.

Yes, it's bad to have a disability that makes walking painful. I'm sorry to hear that you are/were in pain. However, thinking theoretically, wouldn't it be a good idea to have some kind of device that would act as a "range extender" so that you could live a life as normally as possible?

I think there are a lot of people who are lazy or just want to play with their toys in public. These kind of people are doing a disservice to other people, like you, who really NEED some kind of electro-mechanical assistance. If not for them, the Segway could be reengineered or fine tuned to make it a usable device. Now, people are just looking at them as a nuissance.

In some parts of Pennsylvania, the Amish drive around in horse drawn buggies. Most people look at them as a nuissance because some Amish don't think the traffic laws apply to them. (They DO apply!) On the flip side many motorists don't think they should have to be on the lookout for buggies. They will often "blow by" an Amish buggy, spooking the horses and causing all sorts of accidents. (This is JUST as illegeal!) Who is right? In some ways they both are. Yes, Amish should stop for stop signs but autos should slow down when approaching.

We often end up with situations where each side resents the other for some real or imagined transgressions. If motorists simply slowed down then Amish folks would be more inclined to follow the traffic rules. If Amish folks followed the traffic rules motorists would be more inclined to give way. It only takes one A-Hole to screw it up for everybody.

This, I believe, is the situation wheelchair people are in now. It only takes one asshole trying to push by a guy in a chair to piss off the "chair people". It only takes one idiot in a chair to piss off the "walking people". We are on the verge of having a good and useful device being labeled a nuissance becasue some J-Bag (hypothetically) comes whizzing into the lobby of a building and almost mertalizing some kid!

Oh, just a side story:

I was working in the theater one day and some woman came in using a chair. Not even thinking twice, I grabbed the door and opened it for her. Her response was, "Oh, I can get it! You're only doing it because your boss makes you!" Do you know how peeved I was?! If I wasn't at work wearing a uniform I would have slammed the door in her face and said, "Open your OWN damn door!"

Never do I mean to imply that somebody doesn't have a right to his/her grievances but people on BOTH sides of the fence need to lighten up!

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 06-22-2003, 08:51 AM:

Mike's Bike Tours in Paris ran a five-day Segway tour, as can be seen in the June 19th Slate http://slate.msn.com/id/2082835/entry/0/

The site includes a multi-media presentation with maps and a 54-slide show. Although the Jardin des Tuileries doesn't permit bicycles, it does allow Segways. The riders seem to have had no trouble riding the sidewalks and crosswalks, despite the cobbles and paving stones, as the tires are of large diameter.
Pedestrians appear accepting, with no gawkers visible, though there are a few people interested when the riders stop at landmarks to converse and plan the next route.

I've explored Paris on bicycles and on foot several times, but now that I'm older, the Segway begins to look tempting.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 07-06-2003, 06:23 PM:

Segways sell in the US (at Amazon) for $4950. I don't think you're going to have to worry about seeing too many of them very soon.

Since one can't sit in a Segway like they can in a wheelchair, I would suggest a policy where either they have to be locked up outside or somehow checked inside. Perhaps the theatre could even purchase one wheelchair to assist such customers and customers who don't use a wheelchair to come to the theatre, but have trouble walking, especially if it's a multiplex with very long hallways.

If the ADA (or some other org) does get rules passed that you have to "accept" use of the Segway in the theatre, than I would suggest that you have a rule limiting the speed to less than 5 mph or the same as an electric wheelchair.

Regarding the use of Segways (outside of movie theatres) by non-disabled people, I think this is fine. The purpose isn't so much to limit walking, but to discourage car use for short trips.

And yes, let's gang up on the Amish. They're the ones that are causing all the trouble in the world.

Posted by Nicholas Roznovsky (Member # 861) on 07-06-2003, 08:22 PM:

I took the family to Disney World earlier this week and found several parking attendants in the EPCOT parking lots using Segways. After speaking with several of the attendants, the consensus seemed to be that they were great for longer distance trips (across the vast parking lot, back to the HQ), but not-so-great for just puttering around. One attendant even went so far as to call them "annoying" and "tedious" when he was just trying to go 10 feet or so. When I asked them if they would take their Segways inside a crowded building like a mall or a theater, they looked at me like I was deranged.

Not an endorsement or a condemnation, just marginally pertinent info. [Smile]