Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Bookings Question

This is topic Bookings Question - "Doubled Up Films" in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by John Carpenter (Member # 1488) on 06-27-2003, 07:02 PM:

In a zone where you split the films between 2 theatres... what would the rule be for this: If Theatre A was running a film "doubled up" with another film in that auditorium only 2 shows a day, could Theatre B then open up the film outright at that point? Thanks for any advice!

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 06-27-2003, 07:47 PM:

John:

No ... you may not open the film until the original theater is FINAL. Even if they had only one show per night ... you could not open it.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 07-01-2003, 12:10 PM:

We used to have a system here in Ontario that really worked. We had two companies, the first was Cineplex Odeon and the second was Famous Players.
Cineplex Odeon would get product from Colombia, 20 the Century, Tri Star, Universal and Alliance.
With Famous Players, they would get Paramount, Warner, Touchstone, Disney, Hollywood pictures.
I think I am forgetting a couple disrtibutors but the point is that it worked prety well in that you knew what you were going to get and you would always do steady with buisness. Now it is all different.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-01-2003, 02:47 PM:

When I first started working at my theatre (mid 70s), we had a similar arrangement with the drive-in here in town. I remember they would get first refusal on Disney, Warner Bros and Universal product, and we would get the rest. I think it was more of a gentleman's agreement between our two bookers than anything, because about a year after I got into the business, the drive-in changed hands and the new owner said all previous agreements were off, it was everyone for himself with bookings.

But a year later, a windstorm wrecked their tower so they built a restaurant there...problem solved. [Big Grin]

What happens these days when there are two owners in a smaller town, anyway? Do the studios allocate product alternately? What about blockbusters?

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 07-01-2003, 08:00 PM:

I dealt with this in Mankato, MN.

The town is one zone ... 16 screens.

an 8-screen Cinemark and 2 4-screen Carmikes.

It was basically a 50-50 allocation deal ... not alternating ... but the distributors would divide their film into two "equal" tracks of product based on what they felt would be strong. Paramount and Warner Bros did this especially.

Universal and Sony (and Dreamworks) tended to allocate their better "A" pictures to the theater with the highest gross potential (Cinemark) ... but that was mostly thanks to the booker ... who kept showing them that they were losing money by playing the Carmike houses ... based on similar grossing films (ex. Wedding Planner at Cinemark grossed similar to Charlie's Angels at Carmike) ... so it's a lot of wheeling and dealing on the part of the distributors.

Posted by Dino Panagiotopoulos (Member # 1579) on 07-13-2003, 04:25 AM:

Tom,
That method actually still worked up until a year ago and then "Famous" distributors started realising that our Odeon was pulling in bigger numbers than the Silvercity here. That was happening all through the country as well. We never used to get a Paramount (seeing as Viacom owns Famous), WB, or a Disney first run print. This past year we have opened probably 85% of all big films that have come out from all companies. We also get Disney films (with a few of their rules) but we havent opened any Dreamworks films. Hopefully that changes with Shrek 2 next year.

Alot of BS was going on here in Ontario with bookings between Odeon and Famous Players which Im sure you are aware of. I think in the long run Odeon won the battle here. I have been hearing lately that they have been trying to negotiate a deal which would make our competitive zone Non-competitive. If that happened then you would really start to see some battles here.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 07-13-2003, 12:18 PM:

I disagree that Odeon won the battle in my area. We used to be a theater that played all film regardless of distributor, however as of 2000 we started to chared $6.99 Canadian for any movie that we are playing because the Silver City opened of few blocks down the road, since they opened our attendance has dropped as well as our prices.
The first theater I ever worked at was the Sherway Cinemas in Etobicoke. It was a 9 plex that would sell out at least 7 of the theaters on Tues, Fri and Saturday and it was competitive. We never got disney, Dreamworks, Warner and Paramount.... In 1997 we began a free zone that could play anything and all of a sudden the attendance dropped and the theater is now closed.
I guess that in some situation "Famous" benifits as in other "Odeon" gets the upper hand. IMO

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 08-04-2003, 07:36 PM:

Getting this back on topic:

There was a situation similar to this last summer. A 2-screen arthouse in Doylestown PA kept saying on its website that Tadpole was "Coming Soon". A Regal multiplex in the same town picked up Tadpole in mid-August when Full Frontal tanked. Tadpole played 3 weeks at the Regal and later played only 1 week at the arthouse.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 11-01-2004, 12:26 PM:

It has been 454 days since the last post.

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 11-01-2004, 12:26 PM:

It amazes me how the distributors would rather shoot themselves in the foot than make an intelligent decision. I have a twin, we try and get mainly first-run, sometimes running a sub-run with an "independent" film instead. I get a call from Warner Brothers last month asking if I want to run Polar Express. I say sure, why not. They indicate it would require a 3-week run to include Thanksgiving.

Owners don't like this idea, even though it's a kids film our 2nd weeks do about 40-30% of our 1st week numbers so a 3rd week seems suicide. Get a call back from Warner Brothers suggesting if Polar Express is dying down on the 22nd, we could replace with Alexander (rated R, not great for us but a good compromise). Well, the owners and I came up with a better idea.

We usually only run one night show and one weekend matinee. If we could keep Polar Express AND run Alexander, adding a matinee show before the regular start time of Alexander then everyone would seem to benefit. The two films aren't competition as they are from the same studio and one is G one is R. But no, that won't do. Cannot "share" a screen with 2 films on it's opening. [Mad]

Honestly, even if one is competition with the other, the money is going to the SAME place. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 11-01-2004, 02:45 PM:

Barry,

The same logic applies when a studio rep in Dallas tells his supervisor in Timbuctoo that they still have 'xx' amount of prints of 'xx title' on screen when in reality, they re-release a print I've already circuited for ONE MATINEE daily.

WTF? Where is the logic in this? Generally a kids show, running ONE matinee a day?

Another question I have.. why in the world did Universal only release Ray in the limited numbers it did? Makes no sense... [Roll Eyes]

Ray opened on three screens in a 20 mile radius, while 'The Incredibles' will open on AT LEAST 10 screens in the same radius...

I give up.. maybe there IS something to having your head in the sand... ???

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-01-2004, 09:07 PM:

The other dumb requirement is minimum runs for smaller towns. If they would get off the "two week" high horse, we would play A LOT more movies on the break and we would send them down the road 45 miles to the next small theatre for the 2nd week. The screen count would stay the same, both theatres would probably (at least) double the grosses compared to what we would do 4 weeks later, and both of us would probably be willing to pay 60 or 70%. I would rather pay 70% of a big number than 35% of a much smaller number. We more than make it up in concessions.

But no, two weeks minimum every time. So we play 6 or 7 movies a year on the break, and the rest 3 to 5 weeks later.

I guess we're making progress though...until about 4 years ago, we NEVER IN 72 YEARS had played a movie on the break at this theatre.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-01-2004, 09:20 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
If they would get off the "two week" high horse, we would play A LOT more movies on the break and we would send them down the road 45 miles to the next small theatre for the 2nd week.

The problem is that unless there is a theatre just down the road that you can circuit the print to, that print is usually going to sit in a depot for (up to) a week between runs.

You can often do this, though, if you also own a theatre in a neighboring town and the movie isn't tracking too well. If you tell them you'll run one week in each of your locations or won't run it at all, you'll either get a deal right then or they'll call you back by 5pm.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-01-2004, 10:30 PM:

Daryl - that IS the situation. We actually have two "neighbors," one 45 miles away and one 80 miles away. All of the owners are more than willing to circuit prints and we have done it in the past. Never a problem doing an overnight circuit. The filmco's simply won't book something for one week. The problem is three different owners, I guess. But we all have the same booker which would make it even easier.

Hey, maybe it's HIS fault. Hmmmmmmm.

Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 11-02-2004, 12:29 AM:

So if I understand this right...

I am looking at opening a single screen in a pop. of 18,000. Will I ever be able to run the same thing at the same time as the 7 screen across town?

In my past theater I was the only show in town, so I’m confused how booking in a competitive town works.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-02-2004, 02:55 AM:

Single and a 7 plex in a town of 18,000. Sounds like you'd better warm up to the folks at Universal. If you run all of their stuff they might keep you in (their) first run product.

Although, if the 7 plex hasn't obliterated the single's customer base you should be able to get decent product throughout most of the year. You're correct though, you won't be playing the same films at the same time though.

Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 11-02-2004, 03:40 AM:

Is there any way around this issue?

For an example another single screen in the area runs product 1 or two weeks of the break, but they only run 3 nights a week. If I can work an agreement to pick up their films (Sunday) will the film companies still not allow me to play the same product in the same town?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-02-2004, 04:14 AM:

Anything's possible. I can't see picking up a film Sunday or Monday being more profitable than picking something else up a week or two off the break, though.

Your best bet is to find a booker in the area who controls at least 100 screens. They'll be able to give you an idea of the situation in your area and will have a better chance getting product than you would yourself, in the event you go through with your plans.

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 11-02-2004, 10:41 AM:

Depends on print availability and if you want to compete with the 7. As was described above, most "good" movies are limited in print quantiy and of course the 20-30 plexes HAVE to have 3-5 copies so there could be next to none available. However, "kids" or even "teen" films usually have a larger production and you'll be able to get those fairly easily. Good example on this:

Paramount called ME and asked if I wanted Lemony Snicket's for opening weekend and Buena Vista called ME and asked if I wanted Incredibles for opening weekend. BUT Miramax gave me a bit of a runaround with Shall We Dance saying they MIGHT be able to fit my town in on the break, but I'd have to wait until the Monday before the release to find out. Well, most of my newspapers need ads by Friday but were willing to give me till Monday at noon. Miramax calls before noon and says sorry, can't fit it. Calls back at 3pm, wait, yes we can! [Roll Eyes]

Of course my newspapers couldn't change lisitings at that time so I had to go with my backup plan.

I much preferred Universals' answer when I inquired about Ray, just got a "sorry, it's only medium-wide, perhaps a couple weeks after opening". I can handle that, and I appreciate the up-front attitude. I can understand why distributors don't want to pay to produce a number of prints that are only going to be used for one month and then shelved waiting to be re-run in coming years, especially since it's rare that we do enough tickets to give the distributor enough just to pay for the copy itself.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 11-02-2004, 12:14 PM:

John H, in short your going to have one heck of an up hill battle.
As Daryl suggested, a good booker that handles 100 screens or more, "may" be able to help.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-02-2004, 07:03 PM:

John H. - Can you give us some more details about your idea? Is this 7-plex a crap-hole that nobody wants to go to anymore? Is your single an old theatre that you're refurbishing, or are you building new?

If the 7-plex is a fairly new, well-run place with good presentation, you might have trouble. But if the 7 is a dump, I think you could compete IF you make the single as absolutely nice as possible and IF you have the most awesome presentation possible. Don't skimp on ANYTHING. It will pay off.

As far as getting product: I agree, talk to a good booker. I know a town near here where a single competes with a 4-screen, and the single does play some of the blockbusters, but they get stuck in those long contracts for something like 4 weeks, and while they're playing "Matrix 3" or something similar for 4 weeks, the 4-plex is running all the other blockbusters in the meantime.

Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 11-03-2004, 02:17 AM:

The details are what makes everyone nervous.

The building as it stands today is virtually turn key. It is an old high school auditorium with 2000 seats. The whole property is getting ready to be revitalized as a multi-use building (office space, small retail, fitness center etc.) The auditorium has a lot of things going for it.

In 1995 the school put a lot of resources into the auditorium some of these items are a new roof, all new lighting, new fly system, carpets, updated electrical, tuck pointing.

Since the building was closed in 2000 the public has had a silent cry about losing one of it big attractions, but no one has stepped up to use it but me.

I can lease the auditorium, full basement (could be converted to 3 more screens) and the kitchen area (in the basement) for 7-8% of income.

Since a public discussion forum is not a good place judge the competitor, we can simply call it a typical 1980's mall theater.
It has a reported draw of 115,000 people per year. It has no digital sound, no stadium seating, and no screen bigger then 28'.

I feel I can put on a heck of a good presentation in this place, but I do quote "it is what it is" I can't help the fact that it is 2000 seats.